Pakistan has successfully tested Hatf 3 Ghaznavi Missile

[Alpha1]

Yes we need an ICBM

For whom? Won't it be better if we dedicate our resources to develop our existing nuclear arsenal Develop MIRVs and other countermeasures

and are you same Alpha1 who is also on -----------

yes.. but I have retired from that forum.... I had some issues with the administration

 

[ladder]

Babur won't only be an ASCM but it will be our sea borne detterent , launched from Agosta90bs . need i explain more?

First demonstrate, basic AShM version of Babur, then climb the stiff climb of SLCM version of Babur. No scientific community would take the two development together.

So, your wait will be a longish one.

 

[Zarvan]

For whom? Won't it be better if we dedicate our resources to develop our existing nuclear arsenal Develop MIRVs and other countermeasures

yes.. but I have retired from that forum.... I had some issues with the administration

First Israel secondly Europe and USA are not talking about our nuclear program right now because they are stuck in Afghanistan as long as the leave Afghanistan they will come up with crap and if not USA we can target Europe and also we are looking forward to started our own Satellite program ICBM are always considered first step towards that and why Pakistan has not tested the Missile yet so the answer is Pakistan is waiting to get rid of USA and NATO from Afghanistan first than it would come up with these tests @Alpha1 so are you on some other defence forum

 

[Compersion]

@Zarvan @Alpha1

What is definition of a ICBM for Pakistan ... It cannot be simple to cross a continent. What is the range.

 

[rock127]

Whom will you target with ICBM ??

Themselves... as there are 2 cases...

The missiles blasts on its base itself.
The missile take a round of earth and falls in Pakistan again.

 

[Compersion]

Reduced Payload Shaheen 2 can reach Israel

I wish we had the money for an ABM , our priority should be to develop countermeasures for the Indian ABM, that will be more cost effective

What i am implying is that all the Paki missiles and military equipment in Pakistan is explicitly below the range and the threat to Israel that is realistically about 2600km - 2900 Km from a proper configuration missile attack from Pakistan. Is there a declared (accurate and reputable) weapon system that can reach Israel by Pakistan. Is the declaration and use of (only upto) 2,500 km range done on purpose and is that done out of fear is that done from instructions. It is sardonic that all the missiles in Pakistan cannot reach Israel and the range is specific to near about the borders of Israel but not actually into Israel.

One can say that was due to the only anti-India policy of the Islamic State of Pakistan. However now with the new middle east policy of Pakistan one can make a conclusion from the missile inventory of Pakistan that the middle east policy is perhaps reaching to the borders of Israel but not into Israel. But is that really true and in tune with the reality that Pakistan can reach Israel (albeit a bit like the Iraqies).

Why is the focus on "reduced" payload of Shaheen II - Also what about information on Shaheen III and also "reduced" payload of Ghauri II and also other weapons to target Israel. It shows a lack of potency. I thought a Paki would describe in more detail how Israel can be hit by Pakistan. How can Pakistan attack Israel now. @Neo alludes with strong assurance that the Paki capability is there but not explicit and concealed and cryptic (one can accept that) -is that done out of fear is that done from instructions with reference to Israel.

Another approach is that the exact range of Pakistan missile is beyond 2,500 Km perhaps even up to 2,900 km that is enough to target Israel and and might in fact reach Israel from Pakistan but it is not openly declared on purpose and is that done out of fear is that done from instructions. With the new middle east policy is the threat to Israel direct and valid from Pakistan due to its capability.

I alluded that one way that Pakistan has threatened and provoked Israel is that Iran is more mindful of Pakistan capability and posture and therefore regards its development of Nuclear Weapons to be such (Sunni Nuclear State and Shia Nuclear State). That makes it a threat to Israel and middle east balance and parameters and ultimately Pakistan is the reason why Iran is developing Nukes and having more military spending.

The inference would be that Pakistan is threatening Israel by way of making Iran develop its nuclear weapons. That is why the Pakistan middle-east policy will alert Israel. Is it better to remove the symptom (Iran) is it better to remove the problem (Pakistan) might be the question in Israel minds.

 

[Neo]

Do we realy need an ICBM right now?
I don't think so

Yes everyone is waiting for the naval version of Babur

No we don't, that's why I wrote in due time. It is not a priority.
Divert all funds towards development of Babur's different variants and the supersonic short range ballistic missile currently under development.

 

[Compersion]

No we don't, that's why I wrote in due time. It is not a priority.
Divert all funds towards development of Babur's different variants and the supersonic short range ballistic missile currently under development.

Such technology and also ability might be capable of being used from a Sunni territory into Israel that is below the range of 1,000 Km.

What are the countries that are below the range of 1,000 Km from Israel and how are the relations with Pakistan.

Wont it be better if Pakistan openly declares that it has missile range beyond 2,500 KM and into Israel. Instead of developing such weapons and making a moratorium that it never deploys such weapons near Israel (which would be impossible to make).

Such missiles like supersonic short range ballistic missile that you wish to develop are much different compared to the use of missiles like Shaheen and Gauhri and even the current Babur. And also supersonic short range ballistic missile are much more similar and probably required by such players - to the missiles that are used near the borders of Israel.

 

[Neo]

The wait will be a long one. As, if development was nearing completion, your Navy wouldn't have committed itself to 2nd ( first 2009?) batch of larger consignment of C-602 AShM from China.

Why, is the Babur being developpedby DRDO?
C-602 was ordered in 2009 as a seperate platform and was meant to stop gap as Babur's naval version was nowhere close.
Also the C-602 has a considerably shorter range, it can not be compared with Babur.

 

[ladder]

Why, is the Babur being developpedby DRDO?
C-602 was ordered in 2009 as a seperate platform and was meant to stop gap as Babur's naval version was nowhere close.
Also the C-602 has a considerably shorter range, it can not be compared with Babur.

The problem is that it isn't developed by DRDO or any other advanced lab. of the equivalent caliber is the main problem.

Or the problem is that, reverse engineering is hardly a development?

' Nakal ke liaye bhi aakal chahiye'

So, you say the recent procurement of second batch of C-602, last month or so, was a hoax? A deliberate misinformation for the gullible masses of Pakistan? Hmm. you might have a point.

Or do you want to indicate that the missiles contracted for in 2009 wasn't delivered till now by China? Was it hold up by China over non-payment of dues? Can be a possibility.


How I wish! for my brotherly nation Pakistan that, Uncle Sam have had fired a AShm version of Tomahawk towards the mountain Navy of Talibunnies. Oh Dear I wish.

 

[Neo]

Such technology and also ability might be capable of being used from a Sunni territory into Israel that is below the range of 1,000 Km.

What are the countries that are below the range of 1,000 Km from Israel and how are the relations with Pakistan.

Wont it be better if Pakistan openly declares that it has missile range beyond 2,500 KM and into Israel. Instead of developing such weapons and making a moratorium that it never deploys such weapons near Israel (which would be impossible to make).

Such missiles like supersonic short range ballistic missile that you wish to develop are much different compared to the use of missiles like Shaheen and Gauhri and even the current Babur. And also supersonic short range ballistic missile are much more similar and probably required by such players - to the missiles that are used near the borders of Israel.

I told you earlier that I cannot discuss details regarding Israel untill ISPR comes with an statement.
During Musharrafs 8 years we have come to realise that Israel no longer poses a threat. Even if Israel tried to destroy KRL, we have the know how and means to resurrect 10 KRL's all over the country. During Musharraf al lot work has been shifted from KRL to other locations and facilities. It is no longer possible to cripple our bomb building capability with a single raid a la Osirak. But Israel is covered and they know it.
Our priority is to counter India.

 

[Neo]

The problem is that it isn't developed by DRDO or any other advanced lab. of the equivalent caliber is the main problem.

Or the problem is that, reverse engineering is hardly a development?

' Nakal ke liaye bhi aakal chahiye'

So, you say the recent procurement of second batch of C-602, last month or so, was a hoax? A deliberate misinformation for the gullible masses of Pakistan? Hmm. you might have a point.

Or do you want to indicate that the missiles contracted for in 2009 wasn't delivered till now by China? Was it hold up by China over non-payment of dues? Can be a possibility.


How I wish! for my brotherly nation Pakistan that, Uncle Sam have had fired a AShm version of Tomahawk towards the mountain Navy of Talibunnies. Oh Dear I wish.

We ordered 150 C-602 in a single batch and recieved them with full ToT, period.
Naval version is ready to be tested along with two other missiles I will not name.
There is a reason for delay, some of it is related to the fact that both Zardari and Sharif government started with an heavy IMF programme.
One can not afford to reveal expensive military programme while being assisted by IMF.
Even JF-17's production was halved to merely 12 units under current FY to please IMF.

 

[Compersion]

I told you earlier that I cannot discuss details regarding Israel untill ISPR comes with an statement.
During Musharrafs 8 years we have come to realise that Israel no longer poses a threat. Even if Israel tried to destroy KRL, we have the know how and means to resurrect 10 KRL's all over the country. During Musharraf al lot work has been shifted from KRL to other locations and facilities. It is no longer possible to cripple our bomb building capability with a single raid a la Osirak. But Israel is covered and they know it.
Our priority is to counter India.

I appreciate you are straightforward with your assurance. Also the role of Musharraf in securing the Nuclear capability of Pakistan is a good discussion to have and compare it to before Musharraf and why it was not the same before Musharraf- one can say is what did Musharraf implement that is still holding true now - was it infrastructure - was it a system and organisation that has specific rules, procedures and personnel. What I am trying to say is the nuclear safety and proliferation record is evident in Pakistan and also are there proper procedures, structures and objective in place - Is that the case in Pakistan. Are the nuclear weapons in Pakistan really safe from changes in infrastructure (not referring to Terrorists that are given birth from within Pakistan) but from states like Israel, America and groups like NATO. The real safety is from the system in place - and Pakistan is renowned from not having proper system in place (look at the democractic setup) and also look at the below picture on the application of the system by the name-sake Musharraf.

Musharraf is running away from the Judiciary, Democratic System and disobeying - why can this not be inferred into the current Nuclear system in Pakistan. Also refer to the Abattobad incident on individuals that abetted the killing of the people there. One can say that Pakistan does not have a proper nuclear institution and system and contingencies to prevent such things happening which is separate and more difficult to implement compared to digging deep tunnels and infrastructure to protect its weapon systems from possible attacks from Israel, America and groups like NATO. Such system are difficult to configure and develop and require high level of development and implementation as well as technology ask the Nuclear Weapon States like the P5 and India as well as Israel.

The Pentagon's Secret Plans to Secure Pakistan's Nuclear Arsenal

But some U.S. intelligence experts aren't so sure. First, there is the simple matter of competence. When Navy SEALs penetrated Pakistani air defenses, landed in helicopters streets away from a prestigious military academy, killed the most-wanted fugitive in modern history, and then departed, the Pakistani military was oblivious for the duration. Pervasive derision followed. A popular text message in the days after the raid read, "If you honk your horn, do so lightly, because the Pakistani army is asleep."

Americans also question Pakistan's nuclear vigilance. Thomas Fingar, a former chairman of the National Intelligence Council under President George W. Bush, said it is logical that any nuclear-weapons state would budget the resources necessary to protect its arsenal -- but that "we do not know that this is the case in Pakistan." The key concern, Fingar says, is that "we do not know if what the military has done is adequate to protect the weapons from insider threats, or if key military units have been penetrated by extremists. We hope the weapons are safe, but we may be whistling past the graveyard."

In 2006, Kidwai told an audience at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif., that Pakistan maintained for its nuclear arsenal the functional equivalent of two-person control and permissive action links, or PALs -- coded locks meant to prevent unauthorized arming of a weapon. Asked about Pakistan's PAL protocols, one former U.S. defense official replied, "It has never been clear to me what Pakistani PALs really entail. The doctrine is 'two people' -- but is it two people to unlock the box around the warhead, or is it two people to launch the thing once you've mated the warhead to the missile?" (India, in contrast, has been more transparent about its nuclear posture; unlike Pakistan, it has pledged not to use nuclear weapons first -- only in response.)

Also what is the launch codes and locks from Pakistan for its nuclear weapons.

Next you mention about Israel first you say Israel poses not threat and you also say Israel is covered and they know it. That makes it a fairly strong advantage to Pakistan against Israel. That means Pakistan can declare it self to be more dominant compared to Israel since the latter offers no harm to its existence.

Finally you mention the priority is to counter India. I would have thought the same until a few years ago. But Pakistan is making news with its new middle east policy and also news like the below:

Pakistan to sell arms to Saudi Arabia | GulfNews.com

Pakistan and the Sunni Gulf | The Diplomat

I can foresee that the Pakis will one day consult India on its own safety.

 

[ladder]

We ordered 150 C-602 in a single batch and recieved them with full ToT, period.
Naval version is ready to be tested along with two other missiles I will not name.
There is a reason for delay, some of it is related to the fact that both Zardari and Sharif government started with an heavy IMF programme.
One can not afford to reveal expensive military programme while being assisted by IMF.
Even JF-17's production was halved to merely 12 units under current FY to please IMF.

Oh I see, may be you are correct.

My mistake, I had inadvertently not factored in that, we are talking in the context of Pakistan.

As, the below link hints and I comprehend, it is entirely possible for the mighty Pakistan navy to have actually taken 5 years from inception and 3 years from delivery to master the nuances of using a sub-sonic AshM whose tech. fortunately is also similar to a home developed 'land attack' cruise missile. Mighty possible.

Pakistan Navy deploys Chinese C-602 cruise missile - thenews.com.pk

==============================

Shhhh!!!! I understand the hush hush, let's not talk about the missile systems till the time thrust from it's exhaust works against the mother earth's gravity.

But in the mean time let's agree to disagree that 'no news is good news' until it's turns out it was about wife's pregnancy and speculation of Pakistan's forthcoming missile test.

================================

Can you give me a break up of yearly production of JF-17 from the year of supply of SBP from China. And which year Pakistan approached IMF?

True, one cannot pursue ambitious programs under the watchful eye of IMF. Hope that doesn't affect another ambitious program of Pakistan, the program of end game, propping up talibunnies to re-capture Kabul.

 

[Neo]

@Compersion: The keyword here is deterrence and we achieved it against India and Israel. We were working and spending a lot of money to develop Israel-specific aresnal but with considerable larger HEU warheads one needs a very strong and heavylift missile with a range of 3.000 to reach Israel. During Musharrafs regime we started producing lighter Pu warheads from our expirimental Pu based Khushab reactor. Musharraf and the military think tank was so pleased with it that they ordered to build 4 more Pu reactors in Khushab and convert our BM aresenal to Pu warheads. Two of these reactors are operational now, third will be completed next year and the larger remaining two in 2016.
Range of our missiles has been extended but not demonstrated yet.

This is another proof of our efficiency and meeting huge challenges with little resources.

 

[Compersion]

@Compersion: The keyword here is deterrence and we achieved it against India and Israel. We were working and spending a lot of money to develop Israel-specific aresnal but with considerable larger HEU warheads one needs a very strong and heavylift missile with a range of 3.000 to reach Israel. During Musharrafs regime we started producing lighter Pu warheads from our expirimental Pu based Khushab reactor. Musharraf and the military think tank was so pleased with it that they ordered to build 4 more Pu reactors in Khushab and convert our BM aresenal to Pu warheads. Two of these reactors are operational now, third will be completed next year and the larger remaining two in 2016.
Range of our missiles has been extended but not demonstrated yet.

This is another proof of our efficiency and meeting huge challenges with little resources.

Please excuse my simplicity but what were the type of nuclear tests done in Pakistan and the infrastructure in place at that time.

Also when you mention "think tank" it is obvious that is post-facto orderliness to match what occurred. Since the think-tank is focusing on weight and inferring that the current missiles payload would be reduced and range extended (untested) that is a threat to Israel.

You mention the keyword "deterrence" perhaps it is "untested" and "unverified" and "unconfirmed" deterrence against India and Israel.

But the most important point you make is that Pakistan can declare it self to be more dominant compared to Israel since the latter offers no harm to its existence. (Pakistan always used to declare that it is more dominant compared to India since it offer no harm to its existence.)

I hope you are not offended by why does Pakistan take out loans and aid since it is renowned for efficiency and meeting huge challenges with little resources.

 

[Neo]

Off the record since I can not provide links to support my claim, we had developped nuclear capability in 1986.
Before China imposed a moratorium on nuclear tests, Pakistani military delegates were the only non chinese ever to have visited and witnessed nuclear detonations and testings which included much powerful H-bombs.
Now you draw your own conclusions, I will not say more than I aleady have.

Israel is has the ambition to destroy us, I have quoted Ben Gurion in earlier posts.
But there has been a change in their propaganda against us for last 6-7 years.
They know our capabilities and that is called deterrence. She will not attack our nuclear facilitie.

 

[ladder]

Off the record since I can not provide links to support my claim, we had developped nuclear capability in 1986.
Before China imposed a moratorium on nuclear tests, Pakistani military delegates were the only non chinese ever to have visited and witnessed nuclear detonations and testings which included much powerful H-bombs.
Now you draw your own conclusions, I will not say more than I aleady have.

Israel is has the ambition to destroy us, I have quoted Ben Gurion in earlier posts.
But there has been a change in their propaganda against us for last 6-7 years.
They know our capabilities and that is called deterrence. She will not attack our nuclear facilitie.

Let me correct that for you, development is a wrong word, rather state that you had accessibility to the nuclear weapon in 1986, thanks to China.

We don't have to draw conclusions from your statement, for we were privy of those 'rumors' from long.

=========================

Again you had quoted a statement from 1967 w.r.t Israel's PM.

Let me quote a statement and you for the sake of furthering this discussion provide me with two detail

1. Who spoke those words

2. In which year were they spoken.

"Every man and woman of the Muslim world will die before Jewry seizes Jerusalem. I hope the Jews will not succeed in their nefarious designs and I wish Britain and America should keep their hand off and then I will see how the Jews conquer Jerusalem. The Jews, over half a million, have already been accommodated in Jerusalem against the wishes of the people. May I know which other country has accommodated them? If domination and exploitation are carried now, there will be no peace and end of wars".

=========================

The change in stance of Israel, if at all w.r.t Pakistan is a case that merits its own independent discussion, which I would not attempt here.

 

[BangersAndMash]

Yeild of Pakistani Nuclear warheads is classified, nobody knows but it's a high probability that we have thermo nuclear one's too
yeild doesn't matter when targetiing countervalue targets as 10 40kt Warheads in the right place are more effective than a single 800kt warhead
Nuclear Exchange Science 101

How does pakistan simulate nuclear weapon tests?

 

[praneet.bajpaie]

Shaheen II was designed to have a range of 2.500km which would cover 90% of India.
Shaheen III will have a range of 3.500-4.000km and will go well beyond Andaman Islands.

Here is what I can't understand? You can't build a launch vehicle to ferry your satellites to space while you are building 4000 KM range missiles??

What am I missing here?