Pakistan Eyes Acquisition of Chinese Training Aircraft

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by A.V., Feb 3, 2010.

  1. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

    Feb 16, 2009
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    Moscow, russia
    L-15 Buy Likely Would Phase Out 2 Other Trainers
    By Usman Ansari
    Published: 1 February 2010 Print | Email

    ISLAMABAD - Pakistan may acquire the Chinese L-15 supersonic jet trainer aircraft to equip a unit to transition pilots to advanced fighters, eventually reducing the types of trainers in its fleet from four to two.

    The need for the aircraft has arisen despite the operation of the Air Force's current basic/advanced jet trainer, the Sino-Pakistani K-8 Karakorum, which is a highly capable aircraft that has won numerous export orders. Experts dispute whether the L-15, manufactured by Hongdu, is a good fit for Pakistan's needs.

    Kaiser Tufail, Pakistani defense analyst and former Air Force air commodore, said, "the L-15 makes sense only if K-8 is used solely for basic flying training and L-15 for fighter conversion. In such a case, the [older] T-37 [trainer] would be redundant.

    "Considering the extensive [and expensive] structural life enhancement program that theT-37s have undergone, their useful life has been extended by at least 10 more years. The only solution to the dilemma would be to look for a buyer for the T-37s and recover some much-needed foreign exchange."

    Tufail added, "Other than this training stream, the L-15 doesn't quite fit if the K-8 is to perform the role of fighter conversion."

    However, defense analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium believes the interest in the L-15 is understandable.

    The K-8 had been examined by the Air Force as a possible replacement for the current FT-5, a Chinese-made twin-seat MiG-17 Fresco, in the fighter conversion role when it first entered service in the early 1990s, he said. Pakistan also uses a small number of FT-6 trainers, a Chinese-made two-seat Mig-19 Farmer.

    However, the Air Force "most likely felt that a dedicated aircraft purpose-built would be a better option," he said. The 1990s were also a time of considerable financial hardship for Pakistan, so the FT-5 therefore continued in service.

    Shabbir further stated, "Now that the availability of an affordable and dedicated aircraft from China is assured, it probably led to the decision to go for the type in preparation for the future high-tech jets such as FC-20 andF-16C/D training requirements."

    No official word from the Air Force, or the China Aviation Technology Import-Export Corp., was forthcoming. Officials' refusal to confirm the deal may stem from the fact that negotiations have not reached the final stages.

    However, the Air Force has conducted detailed examinations of the aircraft, which included a visit of a single L-15 to Pakistan in December as it transited on its way to the Dubai Airshow. Negotiations are now being undertaken on technical aspects and pricing. The time frame for the conclusion of a deal is unknown.

    Limited Combat Role

    Like the K-8, the L-15 is also useful in the counterinsurgency role as it can carry a light warload of rockets and bombs, plus air-to-air missiles. There is no indication the aircraft is expected to be tasked with this role, but the capability is a point of interest for Pakistan.

    The L-15 competed for orders from the People's Liberation Army Air Force and Naval Air Force against the cheaper and less capable JL-9. The JL-9 is heavily based on the F-7 series of fighters and looks set to be the final evolutionary stage of the MiG-21 Fishbed design.

    The F-7 also makes up the backbone of Pakistan's Air Force and therefore the JL-9 could bring cost savings due to commonality, but that advantage appears to have been discounted.

    This selling point for the JL-9 may have counted against it in the minds of the service's planners, Shabbir said. The L-15 was probably chosen "precisely because it is the more advanced design," and the "JL-9 most likely is not considered a good enough platform due to its F-7 lineage and airframe design, with its associated future growth limitations."

    With the Pakistani F-7 variants expected to be retired this decade, the added cost savings associated with selecting the JL-9 would be unlikely to materialize. Also, the L-15 would allow Pakistan to reap economies of scale because of China's extensive modernization program.

    Pakistan's interest in the L-15 may therefore have wider implications. Officially, at least, the L-15 has not fully entered service with the Chinese Air Force, but Pakistan's interest may indicate the Chinese are looking at the L-15 in a more favorable light.

  3. Dark_Prince

    Dark_Prince Regular Member

    Jan 31, 2010
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    Chinese Dumping Ground

    Man now in pakistan everything is Chinese reversed engineered dumps! Looking at JF-17 with 15-18 Mn USD price tag (with major requirements for further developments to be at par with current champs), makes me think how is it cheaper than Apache helicopter or any other chopper in that category, leave alone current Front running A/Cs? Above all china is still undecided in JF-17s induction into its AF!!;)

    Chinese still sticking to better and more agile J-10 (as compared to only JF-17) and Russian A/Cs. No doubt, looking at economics of pakistan they have no option other than Chinese dumps and argue how JF-17 (which is not fully operational) is better than MKI (the comparison is laughable), and forgetting ignorantly Indian MMRCA, FGFA and MIG-29Ks being in the pipeline :cool:

    Similarly, L-15 which is not fully operational and is as costly as a JF-17 getting dumped in pakistan as a trainer.:D
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2010

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Feb 16, 2009
    Likes Received:
    even worst is Pakistan is paying a fairly high price for untested reversed engineered weapons,Chinese are dumping a lot of things they themselves don't want to use.

    SSG VIPER Guest

    Lol our biggest arms supplier is USA.And JF 17 is a jointure just like K-8 which is in service in large numbers in many airforces.About JF17s not being operational :D:D Yeah right.And the active squadron in peshawar is using something else right
    And no we dont compaire it with MKI we compaire it with Mirage or basic F16.And proce tag may rise upto 25 million once its been upgraded with AESA and other avionics.And sir china has chose around 200 jets for its military.You are welcome to check the news on SINO DEFENCE FORUM in english.And malaysia,indonesia iran kazakistan etc are very much interested in it.And even kazakistan has decieded to buy around 2 squadrons and MOU with be signed soon the decision was taken when Kazak defence sec. along with a visiting commitee were in ISLAMABAD.
    About L-15 its a good platform newly inducted in chinese service.About Helicopters im sorry but PAK-FRENCH signed a deal for 18 EUROTIGERS 25 FENEC helicopers.And also we are also evaluating T129 ATAK helicopter from turkey.Not to forget that PAK armys recently asked GOVT to buy around 20 SUPER COBRAS from USA.
    Anotherthing sir our DEFENCE EXPORTS FOR 2009 was 500 million and we would achieve 1 billion $$ exports this year.Not to forget 44 ALKHALID TRANKS srilanka is buying or the downgraded V1TA tank with ALKHALID CONVERSION and similar design from china which will be profited and shared with Pakistan coz the design and avionics is PAKISTANi
  6. RPK

    RPK Indyakudimahan Senior Member

    Jun 29, 2009
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    13° 4'60.00"N 80°16'60.00"E
    When it happen? show me link of innaguration

    So give me the technical details between J17, F16 & Mirage. Which AESA you going to do it with

    First commission JF 17 in PAF

    PLAAF already rejected L-15 they are not in service

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Feb 16, 2009
    Likes Received:
    simple question what engine and radar will be in these planes since so many large number of planes are going to be built?

    SSG VIPER Guest

    8 small batch production, 4-6 serial production aircraft delivered 2007—2009.
    36 Tactical Attack Wing, PAF base Peshawar
    No. 26 Squadron Spiders - first squadron to operate JF-17.It was innagurated in kamra

    Griffon,Vixen,EU for the AIESA,sagem all are contenders and even a chinese AIESA thats testings.

    General characteristics

    Crew: 1
    Length: 14.0 m [102] (45.9 ft)
    Wingspan: 9.45 m (including 2 wingtip missiles) [102] (31 ft)
    Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
    Wing area: 24.4 m² [102] (263 ft²)
    Empty weight: 6,411 kg (14,134 lb)
    Loaded weight: 9,100 kg including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles [6][103] (20,062 lb)
    Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg [103] (28,000 lb)
    Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan
    Dry thrust: 49.4 kN [3][8] (11,106 lbf)
    Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN [3][104] (18,973 lbf)
    G-limit: +8.5 g [3]
    Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb) [6]

    Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 [6][49] (1,191 knots, 2,205 kph)
    Combat radius: 1,352 km [3] (840 mi)
    Ferry range: 3,000 km [8] (2,175 mi)
    Service ceiling: 16,700 m [8] (54,790 ft)
    Thrust/weight: 0.99 [3][6]

    Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon (can be replaced with 30 mm GSh-30-2)
    Hardpoints: 7 in total (4× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance
    Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm unguided rocket pods [106]

    Air-to-air missiles:
    Short range: AIM-9L/M, PL-5E, PL-9C
    Beyond visual range: PL-12 / SD-10
    Air-to-surface missiles:
    Anti-radiation missiles : MAR-1
    Anti-ship missiles: AM-39 Exocet
    Cruise missiles: Ra'ad ALCM

    Unguided bombs:
    Mk-82, Mk-84 general purpose bombs
    Matra Durandal anti-runway bomb
    CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye anti-armour cluster bomb
    Precision guided munitions (PGM):
    GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2 laser-guided bombs
    H-2, H-4 electro-optically guided,[7] LS-6 satellite-guided glide bombs [105]
    Satellite-guided bombs [7]
    Up to 3 external fuel drop-tanks (1× under-fuselage 800 litres, 2× under-wing 800/1100 litres each) for extended range/loitering time

    NRIET KLJ-7 multi-mode fire-control radar [64]
    NVG compatible glass cockpit [6]
    Helmet Mounted Sights/Display (HMS/D)
    Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST)
    Externally mounted avionics pods:
    Self-protection radar jammer pod
    Day/night laser designator targeting pod
    Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) pod
    in-flight refuelling (IFR)

    Further modifications and upgradations are being made which will be only available on JF17 PAFs version and the price tag of 15-18 million$ is for simple CHINESE VERSION
    Potential customers.
    The Azerbaijani Air Force has negotiated with Pakistan for the purchase of several dozen JF-17, worth between 16 and 18 million dollars each. The Sudanese Air Force is also reported to be negotiating for 12 aircraft. The Air force of Zimbabwe reportedly ordered 12 JF-17 in 2004 ,but there are no current sources that confirm payment or intent of delivery. Several other countries including Bangladesh, Egypt,indonesia,malaysia, Iran and Nigeria etc have been identified as potential buyers.
    A dual-seat combat-capable training variant was initially scheduled to begin flight testing in 2006.[3][54] However plans for this model seemed to have been cancelled until late 2007, when it was reported that Pakistan had decided to fund the development of the dual-seat model which would be used for training pilots and developed into a specialised attack variant.[55]

    In November 2007 it was reported that the PAF and PAC were conducting flight evaluation of the SBP aircraft fitted with a variant of the NRIET KLJ-10 radar, designed and built by China's Nanjing Research Institute for Electronic Technology (NRIET), and the LETRI SD-10 active radar homing air-to-air missile. It was also stated by JF-17 program managers that they were seriously considering purchasing the Thales RC400 radar and MBDA MICA air-to-air missile from France for equipping the JF-17, meaning that in future the PAF could be operating a mixed fleet of JF-17 armed with Chinese and French radars and missiles.[56]

    Pakistan Aeronautical Complex began manufacturing JF-17 sub-assemblies on 22 January 2008.[57][58] Manufacture of parts had already begun at PAC in 2005. The PAF was to receive a further 6 pre-production (small batch production, SBP) aircraft that year, giving it a total of 8 out of an initial production run of 16 aircraft. Initial operating capability (IOC) was to be achieved by the end of 2008.[59]

    Prior to the IDEAS 2008 (International Defence Exhibition and Seminar) event in Pakistan, news emerged that the PAF was not fully satisfied with the Klimov RD-93 turbofan engine and it would only power the first batch of 50 aircraft. It was reported that a deal for a new engine, believed to be the Snecma M53-P2, could appear during the exhibition.[60]

    Final assembly of the JF-17 in Pakistan began on 30 June 2009, with PAC expected to complete production of 4-6 aircraft before the end of the year. PAC then plans to produce 12 aircraft in 2010 and 15-16 aircraft per year from 2011. This may eventually be increased to 25 aircraft per year.[61]

    L-15 TRAINER

    Role Supersonic trainer/attack
    Manufacturer Hongdu Aviation Industry Corporation
    First flight 13 March 2006
    Introduced Between 2008 and 2010 [/B]Primary user China PLAAF/PLANAF
    Number built At least 2 prototype
    Unit cost ¥ 100 million, $US 15,6 million (2008 price)
    Now tell me a trainer with only 2 prototypes in service how can it be rejected?and where does it say it will be rejected?When it is inducted into Chines military and there are only 2 jets and production is going on?
  9. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

    Feb 21, 2009
    Likes Received:
    STAY ON TOPIC--- I wont be easy the next time you guys derail a thread. Talk about the Trainers, not JF17 or AESA!

    SSG VIPER Guest

    Sorry boss but i was just replying to other members.Anyways salute.

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