Pakistan Considering Russian, French Aircraft To Replace 190 Fighter Planes

[sasum]

I'm not getting into this but what a load of nonsense.

The day when the polticans in India are "too soft" to the military- what a glorious day that will be. Maybe then the IAF wouldn't be forced to fly 40+ year olf junk, soldiers wouldn't be running around in pre-WW2 era junk or driving cold war vehicles.

"French are screwing India" without any facts to back this up or solutions to the crippling depletion in SQN levels (that continues every day)- how typical of this mentality.

Parikkar has reason to exert extra caution in this project, the way IAF is vigorously lobbying for Rafael. Indian defence purchases have been a saga of kickbacks & commissions from the days of Bofors. Ours is a robust democracy where Govt. is accountable for every rupee of tax-payers' money spent. Ours is not a totalitarian regime like China. Our system has many defects but our approach is sound. Pampering armed forces means you end up a tinpot democracy like Pak.

 

[warrior monk]

Zhuk AESA is not very mature, they're still working on improving it. I'd take the RBE-2 PESA over it any day.

In which way is

inferior to
French AESA

Is it processing power ??
is it high-speed memory ??
Is it ADCs or DACs ??
Is it resolution ??
Is it sampling rate ??
Is it Adaptive beamforming ??
Is it side lobe supression ??
Is it array’s directivity pattern ??
Is it constructive (in-phase) interference of the desired waveform and destructive interference of the rest ??
Is it the COTs ??

 

[Gessler]

In which way is

inferior to
French AESA
View attachment 7980

Why don't you ask IAF?

..................................................................

 

[warrior monk]

I'm not saying Rafale is inferior but IAF seems to have a hard on for the French . When MMRCA tender was being floated Rupee to Dollar ratio was 40 now its 68 . Our Tax to GDP ratio is still in 16 % and the Chinese already have 2 FGFA projects in LRIP atleast the J-20 one is . We don't have the money to replace 400 jets by 2035 .

 

[abingdonboy]

Parikkar has reason to exert extra caution in this project, the way IAF is vigorously lobbying for Rafael. Indian defence purchases have been a saga of kickbacks & commissions from the days of Bofors. Ours is a robust democracy where Govt. is accountable for every rupee of tax-payers' money spent.

Oh please, what a strawman argument. The defence procurement is now so clean that signing deals is secondary to keeping the politcians' names cleans. The IAF is pushing for the Raflae because after an EXHAUSTIVE 600 point technical analysis the Rafale was found to be the best product, this was a selection process that ALL parties agreed was fair, transparent and credible- even losing bidders. Think about that in an Indian context where even the procurement of tools is held up by allegations of wrong doing on the selection criteria but here India's most expensive procurement to date was considered as clean as could be.

Now tell me how kickback and corruption come into the picture in a GOVT-GOVT deal as this current deal is?


The GoI may be accountable for every ruppee but are they not accountable for national security? 10 EFFING YEARS it has been since this drama kicked off and in that time the IAF has been forced to keep flying 3rd generation 1950 designed MiG-21 and 27. The IAF is contracting every day but the polticans are playing their typical "not me, not me" games ie a dereliction of duty.

When all other avenues are exhausted (slandering the IAF, slandering Rafale, slandering Dassualt) one must resort to insinuations, is that right?

Pampering armed forces means you end up a tinpot democracy like Pak.

Let's not even bring Pakistan's civil-military relations into the Indian context, they honestly could not be more contrasting. The civilains are criminally negligent to the military's needs, let's not play silly games and pretend that in this case the civlians are pandering to the IAF, they are pursuing the Rafale as it is the best product for INDIA.

There's no need to slander the IAF simply because the PAID MEDIA has done a good job of tainting this deal despite ZERO evidence of any wrong doing at any level.

Is it so unreasonable for the IAF to ask for somewhat up to date equipment as their jets fall from the skies, the grandsons of former MiG-21 pilots fly the same aircraft and the threat enviroment continues to degrade.

What logic.

@Gessler

 

[abingdonboy]

I'm not saying Rafale is inferior but IAF seems to have a hard on for the French . When MMRCA tender was being floated Rupee to Dollar ratio was 40 now its 68 . Our Tax to GDP ratio is still in 16 % and the Chinese already have 2 FGFA projects in LRIP atleast the J-20 one is . We don't have the money to replace 400 jets by 2035 .

This myth again aye?

Who told you that? From 2014-2022 there is $300 BILLION USD to be spent on new procurements and the military is STILL returning billions in unspent CAPEX every year and yet magically there is no money?

 

[salute]

@Zarvan

russian are looking for money not beggers,

and pakis not gonna afford french jets,find another place to post your bullsh*t.

 

[Tactical Frog]

France is a regular supplier to Pakistan. Any agreement with India did not stop that. The problem for Pakistan is money, not French denial.

If Saudi pays, Rafales will rain on Islamabad. I shall celebrate.

Not aware of any major deal with Pakistan for a very long time. I guess we deliver support for the Agosta type submarines. The Agosta contract was signed in 1994, before the strategic partnership" with India of 1998. Sarkozy has blocked a big deal in 2010 with Thales and MBDA to equip their JF17. Was a real big one, worth € 1,2 billion. When I say that France has made a strategic choice in favour of India, it is not only words !

 

[abingdonboy]

Can anyone tell us the advantage of Rafale over Mig 35 with AESA,the Russians offered us way back with TOT.

Also in BVR combat current Mig 29K has a advantage over SU 30MKI and F 16 Blk 52.The reason i am saying this because 29K is similar to Mig 35 and superior to Mig 29SMT.

Point to be made from the outset is that the IAF evaluated al 6 aircraft in the MMRCA on a 600 point criteria and failed to downselect the MiG-35 meaning it scored poorly on a large number of criteria. Which areas it failed in are hard to know as all such information is classified but guessing by the fact the MiG-35 has secured 0 orders (not even from the Russians) one can certainly give credit to the IAF for a decsion well made.

-We can guess that the MiG-35's sensor fusion is nowhere near the Rafale's SPECTRA suite- in fact the SPECTRA suit is arguably the finest such system found anywhere in the world- including on the F-22.

-And the MiG-35 is almost entirely a A2A platform although it claims to be multi-role. The IAF already has the A2A profile filled by the MKI and needs a strike aircraft, here the Rafale scores far higher than the MiG-35 that is still a thorough-bred A2A dogfighter no matter what they claim.

-Servicabiilty on the MiG-35s would be troublesome just like all Russian origin platforms whilst the Rafale promies 90% availabilty- think about that.

-Cost is such a majorly misleading topic that I find it hard to fathom how so many can be so wrong on the topic. Over its life span the MiG-35 WILL cost 50-60% more than the Rafale all whilst offering degraded performance. Even unit costs are not grossly divergent, the Rafale is being offered at a unit cost of around $80mn, what is rocketing up the price is the customisation and support package the MoD are insisting on.

The Rafale in IAF would be the finest fighter in Asia for the next 15 years (even accounting for the J-XX), the MiG-35 would barely be an upgrade on the MiG-29UPG.

 

[Yumdoot]

the MiG-29K can only operate from STOBAR carriers. The IN is very interested in the Rafale-M as a result as they could standardise their training, logistics and spares for a single type in the long term and the IN is paranoid about their logistics (as well they should be)

Chinese and Brazilians had entered into a contract to train PLAN officers on the Brazilian CATOBAR carrier. Whatever would have happened to that contract but the fact that PLAN was interested in a CATOBAR just when it was launching its STOBAR carrier and STOBAR capable J-15 suggested that the PLAN had a long term desire to convert their J-15 to CATOBAR versions.

In fact even the Russians had tested a number of different aircraft types (of their airforce) for carrier operations. Even Mig-27s. And the initial wish list was for a CATOBAR capable Su-33 or Mig-29s.

Mig-29K may not be CATOBAR capable right now but for an airframe design that has mutated so many times so successfully for so many different requirements, a simple CATOBAR conversion will not be a big deal. CATOBARs are calibrated for the aircraft loadings etc. and making Mig-29K CATOBAR capable should be a bacchon ka Khel.

In fact there were later reports that J-15s have already been converted for CATOBAR operations. Which makes sense since the Chinese are going to go in for CATOBARs in future.

There was a recent report that even the Indian Navy wished to have the NLCA and Mig-29K validated for EMALS and AAG. And EMALS are an easy proxy for CATOBARs.

Oh and BTW, this is the latest in from Col. Ajai Shukla:
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/03/india-may-not-buy-rafale-french-official.html

 

[abingdonboy]

Not aware of any major deal with Pakistan for a very long time. I guess we deliver support for the Agosta type submarines. The Agosta contract was signed in 1994, before the strategic partnership" of 1998. Sarkozy has blocked a big deal in 2010 with Thales and MBDA to equip their JF17. Was a real big one, worth € 1,2 billion. When I say that France has made a strategic choice in favour of India, it is not only words !

France actively supported the IAF in rapidly upgrading/customising their Mirage 2000s during the 1999 Kargil war AGAINST Pakistan.

 

[Superdefender]

America can give Pak subsidy (like 70-80% money) so that Pak can buy jets. Russia economy is going southyard day by day. Pak will have to spend own money to buy Rus jets. Not possible, only 3-4 jets only.

 

[abingdonboy]

Chinese and Brazilians had entered into a contract to train PLAN officers on the Brazilian CATOBAR carrier. Whatever would have happened to that contract but the fact that PLAN was interested in a CATOBAR just when it was launching its STOBAR carrier and STOBAR capable J-15 suggested that the PLAN had a long term desire to convert their J-15 to CATOBAR versions.

In fact even the Russians had tested a number of different aircraft types (of their airforce) for carrier operations. Even Mig-27s. And the initial wish list was for a CATOBAR capable Su-33 or Mig-29s.

Mig-29K may not be CATOBAR capable right now but for an airframe design that has mutated so many times so successfully for so many different requirements, a simple CATOBAR conversion will not be a big deal. CATOBARs are calibrated for the aircraft loadings etc. and making Mig-29K CATOBAR capable should be a bacchon ka Khel.

In fact there were later reports that J-15s have already been converted for CATOBAR operations. Which makes sense since the Chinese are going to go in for CATOBARs in future.

There was a recent report that even the Indian Navy wished to have the NLCA and Mig-29K validated for EMALS and AAG. And EMALS are an easy proxy for CATOBARs.

The IN isn't interested in the MiG-29K outside of STOBAR, of that you can be certain. The MiG-29K offers no credible advantadge performance past 2030, there is a reason Dassualt are breifing them on the Rafale-M already.

 

[abingdonboy]

he Chinese already have 2 FGFA projects in LRIP atleast the J-20 one is

And yet are still buying Su-35- says all you need to know about their so-called "next generation" planes.

They are cool looking shells, nothing more. The Chinese are still decades behind in propulsion (engine) tech and electronics, copying and pasting, stealing blueprints and reverse enginerring has not made them capable of beating the rest of the world.

The Rafale would easily be the most capable aircraft in the region until at least 2035 and if the AMCA is developed with Dassualt/French assistance it can take up the mantle.

 

[abingdonboy]

Oh and BTW, this is the latest in from Col. Ajai Shukla:
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/03/india-may-not-buy-rafale-french-official.html

Read it, dismissed it.

What more does one expect from Mr Shukla, he has been anti-Rafale from day one.

 

[warrior monk]

This myth again aye?

Who told you that? From 2014-2022 there is $300 BILLION USD to be spent on new procurements and the military is STILL returning billions in unspent CAPEX every year and yet magically there is no money?

with airforce's share at 23 %

with IAF Acquisition Budget for aircraft and aero engine is Rs 18866.0 Cr for 2015-16 just 36 Rafales cost 66000 Cr to 90000 Cr depends who you ask now you see the problem . The increase is not more than 15.9 % YoY factor that is .

 

[Yumdoot]

The IN isn't interested in the MiG-29K outside of STOBAR, of that you can be certain. The MiG-29K offers no credible advantadge performance past 2030, there is a reason Dassualt are breifing them on the Rafale-M already.

Dassault has briefed anybody and everybody in the world for Rafales. IN is not the first one.

IN also had an RFI for F-35, which was just a few months after the Mig-29K re-order.

It is the job of a fighting class to know what is happening around the world. Meetings and presentations are part of that.

Though yes Rafale-M would be ahead of everybody else but then the Navy has an even smaller budget and an even bigger responsibility and maturity than the IAF. If the IN decides for Rafale-M then so be it. But it does look unconvincing to me. So said so.

 

[abingdonboy]

with IAF Acquisition Budget for aircraft and aero engine is Rs 18866.0 Cr for 2015-16 just 36 Rafales cost 66000 Cr to 90000 Cr depends who you ask now you see the problem . The increase is not more than 15.9 % YoY factor that is .

Even if it is 90,000 Cr that will be paid out over 10 years not in one lump some and 50% will be invested back into India under offsets.

Again, the military (including the IAF) is literally returning billions every year in unspent funds so no, I don't see the problem.

 

[abingdonboy]

Dassault has briefed anybody and everybody in the world for Rafales. IN is not the first one.

IN also had an RFI for F-35, which was just a few months after the Mig-29K re-order.

It is the job of a fighting class to know what is happening around the world. Meetings and presentations are part of that.

Though yes Rafale-M would be ahead of everybody else but then the Navy has an even smaller budget and an even bigger responsibility and maturity than the IAF. If the IN decides for Rafale-M then so be it. But it does look unconvincing to me. So said so.

Just wait and see, the most logical decsion will be made and for that there is only one (clear) contender.

 

[Yumdoot]

France actively supported the IAF in rapidly upgrading/customising their Mirage 2000s during the 1999 Kargil war AGAINST Pakistan.

I wonder if you know but Russian in Afghanistan had experienced difficulties with Laser guided bombs at high altitude targets.

IAF had at least 100 LGB kits and at least 5-6 aircrafts modified and yet they actually dropped only 9 LGBs on Kargil heights. Despite the then ACM having tom-tommed his great idea of jury rigging LGBs.

There was a separate capability of better tuned CCRP/CCIP but that was already there on Mirages and there was no need to upgrade/customize anything for IAF Mirages.