Pakistan: China wont let India gain entry inton NSG

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New Zealand backs India's NSG bid
It is understood that the Kiwi PM emphasised on India's adherence to the non-proliferation regime amid its push for NSG membership.
NEW DELHI: Indicating its support ahead of the NSG Vienna meet in November, New Zealand on Wednesday announced that it is constructively engaged with India on the issue of Delhi's membership in the exclusive nuclear club and would work with other NSG members on the case.
The issue of India's proposed NSG membership figured prominently in discussions between Narendra Modi and visiting Kiwi PM John Key. The two sides also decided to expand intelligence sharing mechanism as well as deradicalisation initiatives including cyber domain besides ramping up defence cooperation for stability in the Asia-Pacific region.
"We are encouraged by the discussions on the NSG issue. New Zealand showed understanding of India's clean energy needs and the importance of predictability in global rules on nuclear commerce in enabling the expansion of nuclear energy in India," an official source said following the talks.
"There is a process underway within the NSG on the membership issue. New Zealand conveyed that it would be constructively engaged on India's membership of the NSG and would work with the others in the NSG," the official pointed out. This was reflected in PM's remarks to the press where he stated, "I am also thankful to Prime Minister Key for New Zealand's constructive approach to the consideration of India's membership of the Nuclear Suppliers Group."
Later the Indo-Kiwi joint statement noted, "New Zealand acknowledged the importance to India of it joining the NSG…Prime Minister Key stated that New Zealand would continue to contribute constructively to the process currently underway in the NSG to consider India’s membership.”
But it is understood that the Kiwi PM emphasised on India's adherence to the non-proliferation regime amid its push for NSG membership. "India acknowledged the importance to New Zealand of a strong non-proliferation and disarmament regime. It reiterated its commitment to the total elimination of all weapons of mass destruction including in particular nuclear weapons. Pending the global elimination of nuclear weapons, India will uphold global non-proliferation and work with partners such as New Zealand to advance nuclear disarmament."
In the June NSG meet in Seoul New Zealand -- a NSG member -- had raised questions on India's entry into the exclusive club based on its principled stand on India's non-NPT status.
While China had taken a hostile position and was vocal blocking India's entry into NSG at the Seoul plenary meeting in June, New Zealand raised questions on India's bid citing non-proliferation concerns. Though it did not side with China, Wellington expressed concerns over whether this may adversely effect the non-proliferation regime.
After the Seoul NSG plenary New Zealand High Commissioner to India Grahame Morton had said that his country only wanted a criterion to be fixed for the entry of non-NPT (Non-Proliferation Treaty) states into the 48-nation NSG. Morton had said the NSG’s doors for India were not closed and constructive discussion would lead to a solution. "It is a process and talks will continue," he said.
It may be recalled that New Zealand was one of those last few NSG members to agree to a clean waiver to India in 2008. People familiar with New Zealand’s stand on nuclear non-proliferation issues pointed out that Kiwi stand dates back to US nuclear tests in the Pacific. New Zealand is a member of a group of NPT parties called the New Agenda Coalition (NAC), which focuses on identifying and advocating practical steps on nuclear disarmament. The other members are Brazil, Egypt, Ireland, Mexico and South Africa.
The two sides explored prospects for information sharing in support of our mutual interests in maritime security and also undertake defence education exchanges, by placing Indian and New Zealand defence personnel on each other’s defence courses and staff colleges; and they also encourage naval ship visits to each other’s ports, with the next visit of an Indian vessel to coincide with the Royal New Zealand Navy’s 75th anniversary commemorations in November 2016.
 

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No, the fact is only these 5 have showed the motivation and capability to bend the rules.
US, Russia were dominance power at the time;
UK, France were still major players in world;
China was chasing their nuclear weapon by risking the nuclear attack from US and Soviet.
My confused friend, you can't properly align your own statement.:biggrin2:
"P5 are not in UNSC because they can bend rules but P5 can bend rules just because they are in UNSC."
And as far as India concerned, what the hell is rule?:grin:
So far, India hasn't prove that she will bend any rule that not fit her at any cost.
How many times you wanna hear?
From nuclear testing, defying sanctions to raping MTCR, possessing chemical and biological weapons, India defines it rules of engagement itself.
Being disruptive as "stupid" Chinese is not an empty word, is India ready to pay the cost.
Ya ya, mighty China will crush India.:blah::blah:
PRC establishment is giving same message since start of this entire game in last few years.
So, China won't go undamaged in war either. Indian Forces enough big to do an unacceptable damage to PRC.
In order to be disruptive, "stupid" Chinese fought 2 wars with 2 superpower; they were threatened with nuclear retaliation by both superpowers publicly; their economy were dragged to the edge of collapse by 20 years isolation. Does Indian public want go through the same process?
Neither we want nor we need to go.:biggrin2:
It's China who is isolating itself in SCS. India's economy and military machine is expanding at a good pace.
Even if India will have to undergo war with superpowers like PRC, it's public won't have to see those low days. Because position of India of 2010s is much better China of 1970s and 80s.
One of major reason, Chinese can win this gamble was there was another war between 2 superpowers--cold war. The super 2 were locked against each other.
Or probably it was actually the gamble between USA and USSR actually where China was used by US as a pawn to balance Soviet Union but continued to be a partner of Soviet Union at same time.:rolleyes:
Today's scenario is somehow funny though. China always tries to use Pakistan against India but now a days it's itself getting used.:D
 

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republic_roi97

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no smoking

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My confused friend, you can't properly align your own statement.


"P5 are not in UNSC because they can bend rules but P5 can bend rules just because they are in UNSC."

Sorry, let's try it again:

P5 will bend the rules if these rules don't fit their need no matter they are in or out of UNSC


And as far as India concerned, what the hell is rule?
That is not the question a power wanna be should ask.


How many times you wanna hear?

From nuclear testing, defying sanctions to raping MTCR, possessing chemical and biological weapons, India defines it rules of engagement itself.

Oh, yes, by stopping nuclear test? That is not how you define the rules yourselves, you are bending yourselves to fit the rule.


Ya ya, mighty China will crush India.


PRC establishment is giving same message since start of this entire game in last few years.

So, China won't go undamaged in war either. Indian Forces enough big to do an unacceptable damage to PRC.

Who said China going to crash India. Why we need to crash India? There is nothing to gain by "crashing" India. All China wants is India paying enough price for everything she wants. That is also everyone wants.

India won't get in without paying a big price.

Neither we want nor we need to go.


It's China who is isolating itself in SCS. India's economy and military machine is expanding at a good pace.

Even if India will have to undergo war with superpowers like PRC, it's public won't have to see those low days. Because position of India of 2010s is much better China of 1970s and 80s
.


That is the point, Chinese push ahead their nuclear program in front of all the threatens. Well, India jut bend herself to the economic sanction and a peanut from American.

Or probably it was actually the gamble between USA and USSR actually where China was used by US as a pawn to balance Soviet Union but continued to be a partner of Soviet Union at same time.


Around 100,000 US soilders dead directly or indirectly in the hand of Chinese before they got Chinese on their boat. You call that a gamble?


Today's scenario is somehow funny though. China always tries to use Pakistan against India but now a days it's itself getting used.
Isn't India being used as well?
 

republic_roi97

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Isn't India being used as well?
By whome ? USA ? Oh please, they put economic restrictions on Iran, we didn't support the americans and continued our trade, we supported russia in its cremia objective, we are increasing ties with Iran, both economic and military, we are getting into major deals with Russia. When you say that India is being used by US for their National Interest, we are here to remind them that we are letting them in, because countering China is in our interest too. If USA supports our UNSC bid and NSG bid, tell me that how isn't that not beneficial to us ? And if that makes us look like pawns of US than I'm sorry but let it be so.
 

republic_roi97

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That is the point, Chinese push ahead their nuclear program in front of all the threatens. Well, India jut bend herself to the economic sanction and a peanut from American.
That is the side effect of democracy sire. But you're a fool to think if India is US's pawn.
 

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Sorry, let's try it again:

P5 will bend the rules if these rules don't fit their need no matter they are in or out of UNSC
You seem to be in hangover yet. Drank too much?:daru:
My other point, even if members make rules, countries like India are always there to rape them.:D
That is not the question a power wanna be should ask.
This power wanna be has done it practically many times.:biggrin2:
Oh, yes, by stopping nuclear test? That is not how you define the rules yourselves, you are bending yourselves to fit the rule.
Economic concerns buddy! We did N-tests after CTBT and that matters enough. Current one will be entering NSG without signing NPT. For nuclear tests, will do again some day with greater international voice and prowess.
Who said China going to crash India. Why we need to crash India? There is nothing to gain by "crashing" India. All China wants is India paying enough price for everything she wants. That is also everyone wants.
Tell it to.your establishment who's trying to bring a jihadi hell hole up by linking everything with against India.
India won't get in without paying a big price.
We will see! If you are talking about nuclear business and civil nuclear deals with China, I don't see it as a big prize. Mark my words.

China will take the offer soon.
That is the point, Chinese push ahead their nuclear program in front of all the threatens. Well, India jut bend herself to the economic sanction and a peanut from American.
Wrong, China had not as big challenge of sanctions as India had. Over that, India wasn't even in American block. India was threatened by sanctions because we did it after 1967, unlike China when no CTBT existed

Around 100,000 US soilders dead directly or indirectly in the hand of Chinese before they got Chinese on their boat. You call that a gamble?
Yes, this was of part of gamble, called as Korean war.:rolleyes:
Or indirectly, you are trying to say China had already written the fate of global order like some God, even before it's civil war.
Isn't India being used as well?
At least drawing something substantial from relations with bigger as well as smaller partners.
 

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Who said China going to crash India. Why we need to crash India? There is nothing to gain by "crashing" India. All China wants is India paying enough price for everything she wants. That is also everyone wants.

India won't get in without paying a big price.
What price does China want India to pay?
 

IndianHawk

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What price does China want India to pay?
They will end up asking more market access to India.
We are neither going to cap nuke program nor we'll compromise on border.

Perhaps they'll beg for Pakistani entry.

There is really not much of substance in any of this
 

republic_roi97

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LOL, controversial for pakis because rules are bent for India and not Pakistan.
Well actually in Japan, there is a sect that is opposing this on the basis of the fact that Japan was only country that got hit by Nukes and this deal is being done with a country that is one of the very few that hasn't signed nuclear non proliferation treaty. But all is well to counter chinese growing power.
 

IndianHawk

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Well actually in Japan, there is a sect that is opposing this on the basis of the fact that Japan was only country that got hit by Nukes and this deal is being done with a country that is one of the very few that hasn't signed nuclear non proliferation treaty. But all is well to counter chinese growing power.
Yup and meanwhile the uncle that nuked them in the first place gets a base and total strategic domination.o_O
 

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New draft proposal could pave way for India's NSG membership

WASHINGTON: A new draft proposal circulated among Nuclear Suppliers Group member states early this month could pave the way for India to become a member of the elite club, but this is unlikely to happen before the end of the Obama presidency next month.
The American push for India to become a full-fledged member of the NSG would now have to be pursued by the incoming Trump Administration as the outgoing Obama Administration is unlikely to fulfill its promise made to the Modi Government before its term expires January 20, informed sources said.
A draft formula for NSG membership to countries like India and Pakistan that are not a signatory to the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) was submitted by Rafael Mariano Grossi, the former NSG Chair, who prepared the report on behalf of South Korea, the current NSG chair.
According to Arms Control Association (ACA), a Washington-based think-tank who has been a fierce opponent of India-US civil nuclear deal and India's membership to NSG, the two-page draft formula proposes "nine general commitments" that non-NPT countries like India and Pakistan "would need to make" in order to receive the "fullest" atomic trading privileges.
Slamming the draft proposal for "lowering the bar", Daryl G Kimball of ACA observed that this could pave the way for India becoming a NSG member as it already fulfills all these nine criteria outlined in the draft proposal, which was informally discussed by NSG members in Vienna this month.
Informed sources in the US Government told PTI that the current "time-line" does not ensure India's membership under the Obama Administration, for which it had tried hard, but for the Chinese "resistance" in this regard.
As such, India's NSG membership, an unfinished agenda of the India-US relationship of the outgoing US President would now have to be taken up by his successor Donald Trump.
While the civil nuclear deal was an initiative of a Republican Administration, George W Bush, the incoming Trump Administration has not made any public comment in this regard.
The issue is, however, believed to have come up for discussion during the initial phase of contacts that top Indian officials have established with the presidential transition team.
Revealing details of the nine-point formula for non-NPT States to become a NSG members, ACA says that interested countries should have implemented and have brought into force a clear and strict separation of current and future civilian nuclear facilities from non-civilian nuclear facilities in [non-NPT applicant] and have provided and maintain a declaration to the IAEA that identifies all current and future civilian nuclear facilities in [non-NPT applicant].
 

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Formula for new NSG members leaves Pakistan out: US group
WASHINGTON: A draft proposal for accepting new members into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) paves the way for India’s entry but leaves Pakistan out, says a US-based arms control organisation.
The Arms Control Association (ACA), Washington, also warns that relaxing membership rules will undermine non-proliferation.
Last week, the US media reported that Rafael Mariano Grossi, a former chairman of the NSG, had prepared a two-page document, explaining how a non-NPT state, like India and Pakistan, could join the group. Mr Grossi was acting on behalf of the current chairman, Song Young-wan of South Korea, and his document enjoys a semi-official status.
To prevent India from blocking Pakistan from joining the NPT, Mr Grossi’s draft note proposes that “one non-NPT member state should reach an understanding not to block consensus on membership for another non-NPT member state”.
But ACA’s executive director, Daryl Kimball, warns that “Pakistan still has grounds to object to the formula outlined by Mr Grossi”. He explains that the document will require Pakistan to meet the same criteria for membership as India “but, to engage in civil nuclear trade with NSG states, it would have to win a separate NSG exemption from the full-scope safeguards requirement”.
The 48-nation NSG is a nuclear technology control organisation formed in 1975 in response to India’s first nuclear weapon test, which used plutonium produced with nuclear technology from Canada and the United States. The NSG seeks to prevent similar future misuses.
Current NSG membership rules require a state to sign the nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty (NPT) before joining this exclusive club. India remains one of only three countries, with Israel and Pakistan, never to have signed the NPT.
Earlier this year, India formally applied for membership and was followed by Pakistan. The United States, and a host of other powerful western nations, back India’s application, but China and half a dozen other nations are blocking India’s membership, which requires a consensus of all members.
India had hoped to join the group during NSG’s last plenary session, held in Seoul in June this year, but the meeting ended without taking any decision on New Delhi’s application.
Several countries expressed concerns over India’s entry because it had not yet signed the NPT. China led the efforts to block India’s membership.
After the plenary, the new chairman asked Mr Grossi to work out a proposal for admitting new members. The proposal he prepared also addressed the India-Pakistan dispute, acknowledging that both countries had “political reasons” for blocking each other’s membership.
But Mr Kimball points out that Grossi’s formula allows India to claim that it has already undertaken the steps necessary for membership, “which could then lead to a decision on membership for India, while still leaving Pakistan in a different status”.
The proposal requires a non-NPT state to declare that it has brought into force a clear and strict separation of current and future civilian nuclear facilities from non-civilian nuclear facilities and is willing to apply this principle to future facilities as well.
The new member also needs to assure NSG that it has provided and maintains a declaration to the IAEA that identifies all current and future civilian nuclear facilities.
The applicant also needs to assure NSG that it has enforced a safeguards agreement with the IAEA covering all declared civilian facilities and all future civilian facilities which the IAEA determines are eligible for safeguards.
 

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Formula for new NSG members leaves Pakistan out: US group
WASHINGTON: A draft proposal for accepting new members into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) paves the way for India’s entry but leaves Pakistan out, says a US-based arms control organisation.
Chinese are actually making India stronger by forcing India to do bilateral deals with major suppliers. We already have major suppliers on our side without signing NPT or CTBT. This speaks volumes about India's diplomatic achievement and soft power.
 

Compersion

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ultimately get the same status and beyond to PRC by way of NPT.

If X% and above say yes ... there is no consensus needed to amend NPT. It does not say anywhere the current Nuclear weapon states on NPT will always be the Nuclear weapon states. the perpetual time extension nature of the NPT is for the document extension and nothing about renewal and amendment not being allowed.

KMT -> PRC

Soviet Union -> Russia

If amendment allowed for above. Why not make 5 - > 6.

But it seems the plan is first NSG and thereafter NPT.

by the way the USA said "promise" and also used some choice words expressly in communications on PRC to say India would get NSG before end of year.

Hence the words on Obama and Trump. Some will say USA foreign policy getting a beating. (along with North Korea)
 

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