Pakistan again seeks US intervention on Kashmir

laughingbuddha

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Does Pakistan want Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan? Or as an independent nation? Are we doing enough to keep J&K with India? Are we accomodating enough? Rascist and communal attacks on J&K and NE only fueling the feeling of alienation. Not good.
 

Ray

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Comparison with North Korea is merely a projection of the negative Indian mindset. Pakistan and China have been close allies for more than five decades and we have sofar never suffered any losses against China.
Pakistan will never become North Korea, therefor we are too big and powerf country with a huge geo-political importance.
The US and its NATO allies which were engaged in a bitter the Cold War with the then Soviet Union decided to use Pakistan as a frontline state against their enemy.

Prof Munawar Sabir in his scholarly lecture delivered at the Superior University, Lahore, exclusively for the CSS students preparing for interview on 'Geo-strategic importance of Pakistan'. He highlighted the geo-strategic importance of Pakistan by discussing Pakistan's relations with its neighbouring countries and the major powers.

When Pakistan emerged on the map of the world as a sovereign and independent state in August 1947, it was like a baby in ICU with hardly any prospect of survival, on account of its extremely vulnerable defence and fragile economy. However, despite numerous setbacks, crises and turmoils of gigantic magnitude, it has so far been able to survive and make some progress due to several factors, perhaps the most important of which is its strategic geographical location and its particular ideology.

Pakistan's geo-strategic importance can be best understood in the regional and global perspective. In geographical terms, it is surrounded by four countries: Afghanistan, Iran, India and China, each of which is a major player in international politics. In one way or the other, Pakistan is vital for these countries and this raises its international stature. Afghanistan which is now the focus of world's attention is generally regarded as the breeding ground of all the international terrorism, militancy and opium production and the whole world, including the US realises the fact that no peace is possible in Afghanistan without the active support and cooperation of Pakistan.

Troubles began in Afghanistan with the Soviet invasion in 1979, which led to a huge influx of refugees to Pakistan. The US and its NATO allies which were engaged in a bitter the Cold War with the then Soviet Union decided to use Pakistan as a frontline state against their enemy.
Pakistan's geo-strategic importance can be best understood in the regional and global perspective. In geographical terms, it is surrounded by four countries: Afghanistan, Iran, India and China, each of which is a major player in international politics.
Besides recruiting thousands of Arab fighters in the name of jihad, young students who were studying in madrassas in Pakistan were picked up, trained, motivated, armed and pushed into Afghanistan as Mujahideen to fight against the occupation forces.

This so-called Afghan jihad which was sponsored and financed by the West and its Arab allies received unequivocal support from President Zia-ul-Haq's military regime and the country's religious parties most notably the Jamaat-e-Islami, whose Amir Mian Tufail Muhammad described Zia-ul-Haq as Salahuddin Ayyubi of Pakistan. After the defeat and disintegration of the former Soviet Union, both Pakistan and the Mujahideen, who had played the key role in the war, were completely forgotten by the West.

With the spirit of jihad still vibrant in the Mujahideen, a large number of them reorganised themselves and emerged as a new force named Taliban, who were supported by the Pakistani agencies in the hope that a pro-Pakistan government in Afghanistan might be helpful in checking the growing Indian influence in the region. The 9/11 attacks and the toppling of the Taliban regime in the wake of the US led invasion dramatically changed the situation, which once again forced the West to realise the strategic importance of its old forgotten ally Pakistan.

Now, the US and NATO troops fighting in Afghanistan are well aware that they are heavily dependent on Pakistan for winning the war in Afghanistan. Afghanistan has other neighbours also such as Iran, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan, but Pakistan provides the easiest route for the provision of NATO supplies to the forces in Afghanistan. Moreover, being a land locked country, Afghanistan has to rely heavily on Pakistan for its cross border trade and economy.

The pro-western Arab governments are also afraid that the further strength of Iran may encourage their Shi'ite population to revolt against the dictatorial governments in these countries. In these circumstances, Iran needs Pakistan's support to foil the Western conspiracies against it.

Pakistan's eastern neighbour India with its huge market and its nuclear capability, is also ambitious of becoming a global power with a permanent seat in the Security Council. Apparently it insists that a strong, stable and democratic Pakistan is in its (India's) interests, because any extremist or fundamentalist government in Pakistan may lead to more violence and terrorism in India.

But the fact is that India itself has always been bent upon destroying Pakistan. In 1971, when it succeeded in the dismemberment of Pakistan, its army chief at that time told his government that if he was given a few more days, he could easily take the rest of Pakistan. But the then US President Nixon warned Indira Gandhi not to go too far in her ambitions against Pakistan. Nixon is quoted to have said, "Old witch, enough is enough."

Thus, it were the Americans who saved the rest of Pakistan from going into Indian hands at that time. But they did so because they were fully conscious of Pakistan's geo-strategic significance and hoped to use it at some later stage for their own interests. As stated earlier, during the days of the Soviet Union's occupation of Afghanistan, Americans successfully used Pakistan as a frontline state against their enemy in the Cold War. Similarly, since the 9/11 attacks, they have again been exploiting it for their own political, economic and strategic interests.

The 9/11 attacks and the toppling of the Taliban regime in the wake of the US led invasion dramatically changed the situation, which once again forced the West to realise the strategic importance of its old forgotten ally Pakistan.

Our third nuclear neighbour is China, which is the upcoming superpower both in economic and military terms. In the times to come, it is likely to be the only rival of the US economically as well as militarily. It is evident that the US is strengthening India so that in the times to come, it may be helpful for it in any eventual confrontation with China. In this situation, China naturally seeks closer ties with Pakistan which is also opposed to the expansionist designs of India.

Furthermore, for its rapidly flourishing international trade, China looks towards Pakistan for giving it an easy access to the Muslim countries of Central Asia and the Middle East. It is worth remembering that sea transport is 10 times cheaper than the land transport. Realising this fact, China has invested heavily in the Gwadar Port Project. In spite of the fact that some of its engineers and technicians working in Pakistan have been kidnapped and even killed, it is determined to remain associated with the Gwadar Project because it is fully aware of its potential economic and commercial benefits. It is generally believed that Kashmir is a disputed territory between India and Pakistan. But it is not known to many people that some mountainous snow clad unpopulated area of Kashmir near Siachin Glacier is under Chinese control. Thus, China is also a party to the Kashmir dispute and there can be no just, permanent and comprehensive settlement of the dispute without active participation of China.

Pakistan's strategic position in the world has been considerably increased ever since it has achieved nuclear capability, which has made it the only Muslim country armed with atomic weapons. When India carried out nuclear explosions in 1974 and began threatening Pakistan, Bhutto declared despite the US opposition that Pakistan would also make atomic bomb even if its people had to eat grass for this purpose. The outraged Americans threatened to make him an example for others and succeeded in removing him from power in 1977.

It is interesting to note that while they were annoyed with Bhutto for starting nuclear programme, they had to allow Zia-ul-Haq to continue this programme only because at that time, they needed his help in the Afghan conflict against the Soviet Union. In the mid-1980s, Pakistan's atomic bomb was ready and thus the balance of power in the region was restored.

It is said that when Zia-ul-Haq went to India during his cricket diplomacy, he asked Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi how many atomic bombs were required to destroy Pakistan. Rajiv replied that only two or three could eliminate Pakistan. Zia-ul-Haq then asked him how many such bombs were needed to destroy India. Rajiv said that he thought six or seven were sufficient. Hearing this, Zia stood up and remarked, "Rajiv, shake hands, I have more than seven." He further said, "If India is destroyed, Hinduism will be eliminated, but if Pakistan is eliminated, Islam will not be eliminated."

In these circumstances, India was compelled to hold negotiations with Pakistan about the no-war or non-aggression pact. Later, in 1998, when India again carried out nuclear explosions, Pakistan came under enormous international pressure not to conduct its own nuclear tests. While Western powers were pressurising the government Iran offered huge financial help and Saudi Arabia promised to supply large quantities of cheap oil in case of international economic sanctions. Pakistan's nuclear explosions proved very helpful in highlighting the need for the resolution of the Kashmir dispute, because the whole world realized that in case of another war on Kashmir, nuclear weapons could be used, causing unimaginable destruction.

Pakistan is a poor country confronting countless problems and facing grave energy shortages but even then, its nuclear power has significantly elevated its importance in the international community. A historian has perhaps rightly said that in almost 80 years since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, if any worth mentioning incident took place in the whole Muslim world, it was in May 1998, when Pakistan carried out its nuclear explosions.

Situated in South Asia, Pakistan is a gateway to Central Asia and its Arabian Sea provides an easy access to the countries of the Middle East. It lies in the neighbourhood of China and India which due to their huge markets are supposed to be the economic giants of future. Among the innumerable gifts bestowed upon Pakistan by nature, perhaps one of the most important ones is its ideal and highly strategic geographical location. If it is prudently used, it can make our country the hub of international trade and commerce, opening up new doors of progress and prosperity for its people.
By
Munawar Sabir

http://jworldtimes.com/Article/22011_Geo_strategic_importance_of_Pakistan
This is from the Pakistani perspective.

Few issues from the article:

Pakistan's geo-strategic importance can be best understood in the regional and global perspective. In geographical terms, it is surrounded by four countries: Afghanistan, Iran, India and China, each of which is a major player in international politics. In one way or the other, Pakistan is vital for these countries and this raises its international stature. Afghanistan which is now the focus of world's attention is generally regarded as the breeding ground of all the international terrorism, militancy and opium production and the whole world, including the US realises the fact that no peace is possible in Afghanistan without the active support and cooperation of Pakistan.
1. How is Pakistan vital to Afghanistan, Iran India and China?

The only commonality I see of the nations mentioned and Pakistan is the export/ encourage/ foment terrorists to plague these country.

I could elaborate, but the facts are well known for recall.

Of the neighbours, only China benefits to some extent, given that a corridor gets opened from Gwadar port to China. However, it is not fraught with impediments. There are the insurgents active where the corridor will operate and it will bog down not only the Pakistan Army but also will require a large standing military force ex China, as they are doing in Baltistan Gilgit.area. The overexposure to Chinese will indeed impact the locals as they have done in Africa, leading to resentment and unrest (or maybe not).

2. it is factually incorrect to peddle the idea that Afghanistan is the breeding ground for terrorists and terrorism. It will be observed that wherever terrorism has struck, the Pakistan connection gets established. That is why there was this pressure on Musharrraf to close down the madrassa and desist receiving funds from the Wahaabi Saudi Arabia.

3. However, I concede the point that Pakistan's cooperation will surely be required if terrorism is to be crushed since Pakistan, as is the well known fact, is the womb of terrorism.

This so-called Afghan jihad which was sponsored and financed by the West and its Arab allies received unequivocal support from President Zia-ul-Haq's military regime and the country's religious parties most notably the Jamaat-e-Islami, whose Amir Mian Tufail Muhammad described Zia-ul-Haq as Salahuddin Ayyubi of Pakistan. After the defeat and disintegration of the former Soviet Union, both Pakistan and the Mujahideen, who had played the key role in the war, were completely forgotten by the West.
1. Why blame the West for sponsoring and funding the jihadis in Afghanistan and make it appear that it was their fault?

One must never forget that you can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. It may have been in West's strategic interest, but it was Pakistan which was looking at a gift horse in the teeth. The Machiavellian Zia realised that playing the Islam card would ingratiate him to the mullahs and make him appear to be a great 'soldier of Islam', and thereby legitimise his illegal govt in the eyes of the Pakistanis, as also make him rise in stature amongst the Islamic nations, give him and his Army a chance to stash illegal financial gains (financial bookkeeping is a casualty in any such 'game'), improve his standing with the West and get his Govt illegitimacy the Nelson's eye.

2. I have not understood this opt repeated wail from Pakistan that the 'West forgot Pakistan and the Mujhs'? What did Pakistan expect from the West once the task assigned to Pakistan by the West was done, arsenal supplied and paid for?

The 9/11 attacks and the toppling of the Taliban regime in the wake of the US led invasion dramatically changed the situation, which once again forced the West to realise the strategic importance of its old forgotten ally Pakistan.

Now, the US and NATO troops fighting in Afghanistan are well aware that they are heavily dependent on Pakistan for winning the war in Afghanistan.
Now, who organised the 9/11? Hardly a reason for any country that has been devastated to feel obliged to feel that the country organizing the same has strategic importance to the country devastated.

Now, the US and NATO troops fighting in Afghanistan are well aware that they are heavily dependent on Pakistan for winning the war in Afghanistan. Afghanistan has other neighbours also such as Iran, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan, but Pakistan provides the easiest route for the provision of NATO supplies to the forces in Afghanistan. Moreover, being a land locked country, Afghanistan has to rely heavily on Pakistan for its cross border trade and economy.
It is right that Pakistan was the least expensive route to sent arms and supplies. That is hardly 'strategic', it is just 'expedient'.

Turkmenistan and Tajikistan and CAR countries were of greater importance strategically since it would dramatically improve the 'strategic prowess' of the US as it was rich in oil and gas and it was closer to the Middle East which is always on US' strategic crosshair.

The pro-western Arab governments are also afraid that the further strength of Iran may encourage their Shi'ite population to revolt against the dictatorial governments in these countries. In these circumstances, Iran needs Pakistan's support to foil the Western conspiracies against it.
This is another disingenuous falsehood being cranked in like a square peg in a round hole.

Pakistan is no friend of Shia Iran, when the atrocities of the Shias in Pakistan is well documented to include the cry of declaring them as kaffirs!

And who foments the terrorist crossborder raids in Iran against the Shias in Iran Balochi areas?

But the fact is that India itself has always been bent upon destroying Pakistan. In 1971, when it succeeded in the dismemberment of Pakistan, its army chief at that time told his government that if he was given a few more days, he could easily take the rest of Pakistan. But the then US President Nixon warned Indira Gandhi not to go too far in her ambitions against Pakistan. Nixon is quoted to have said, "Old witch, enough is enough."

Thus, it were the Americans who saved the rest of Pakistan from going into Indian hands at that time. But they did so because they were fully conscious of Pakistan's geo-strategic significance and hoped to use it at some later stage for their own interests. As stated earlier, during the days of the Soviet Union's occupation of Afghanistan, Americans successfully used Pakistan as a frontline state against their enemy in the Cold War. Similarly, since the 9/11 attacks, they have again been exploiting it for their own political, economic and strategic interests.
That is another falsehood Pakistani indulge in.

Please note that each war started between India and Pakistan, was the handiwork of Pakistanis.

Is defending one's territory against Pakistani aggressive indicative of 'wanting to dismember Pakistan'?

Pakistanis tend to force themselves to cannabis assisted ecstasies to live and wallow on falsehood to spread fear and hate so as to keep their body and souls and Nation together in one piece. And sadly, they dismember themselves, themselves. It is happening even as of today!

Indeed Nixon realised the 'strategic importance' of Pakistan. He surely did not want to lose a willing and obedient handmaiden to forces inimical to the US.

China has invested heavily in the Gwadar Port Project. In spite of the fact that some of its engineers and technicians working in Pakistan have been kidnapped and even killed, it is determined to remain associated with the Gwadar Project because it is fully aware of its potential economic and commercial benefits. It is generally believed that Kashmir is a disputed territory between India and Pakistan. But it is not known to many people that some mountainous snow clad unpopulated area of Kashmir near Siachin Glacier is under Chinese control. Thus, China is also a party to the Kashmir dispute and there can be no just, permanent and comprehensive settlement of the dispute without active participation of China.
Gwadar corridor to China is indeed a great economic requirement for the Chinese that they are ready to lose Chinese lives for.

Once the corridor is on stream, more Chinese lives will be lost, because the insurgent would not accept that non Balochis alone reap the harvest while they wallow in poverty and neglected and slighted.

China is a party to the Kashmir issue, not because it is anywhere near to the Siachen, but because Pakistan has handed over like a good khidmatgar Shaksgam Valley of Kashmir, to the Chinese.

It is said that when Zia-ul-Haq went to India during his cricket diplomacy, he asked Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi how many atomic bombs were required to destroy Pakistan. Rajiv replied that only two or three could eliminate Pakistan. Zia-ul-Haq then asked him how many such bombs were needed to destroy India. Rajiv said that he thought six or seven were sufficient. Hearing this, Zia stood up and remarked, "Rajiv, shake hands, I have more than seven." He further said, "If India is destroyed, Hinduism will be eliminated, but if Pakistan is eliminated, Islam will not be eliminated."
Surprising that there could be people in this world who are ready to exterminate their own people and nation for the sake of an abstract vision called religion, when none scientifically know what happens after death and if indeed there is Paradise!

Such foolish illusionary and illogical dreams beat sanity!

In these circumstances, India was compelled to hold negotiations with Pakistan about the no-war or non-aggression pact.
Another self delusion!
 

Compersion

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Comparison with North Korea is merely a projection of the negative Indian mindset. Pakistan and China have been close allies for more than five decades and we have sofar never suffered any losses against China.
Pakistan will never become North Korea, therefor we are too big and powerf country with a huge geo-political importance.
1. Negative Mindset of the subcontinent:
Are you aware that Pakistan for the first time in its history was able to have a peaceful transition of a full political term of its democratically elected government. Zardari administration was able to pass onto the Shareif government. What was the role of India in this. Having a little normalcy now is a direct outcome of those parameters. And here is where the negative mindset lies -> what you are thinking when you read this. Some would also attribute the little normalcy in Pakistan now and relate that to the drone attacks and the aggressive posture of America and the eye of the storm feeling in relation to Afghanistan. -> again your negative mindset. Nothing can be facts and truths to Pakis unless it is favorable to them.

2. Pakistan and PRC:
- Pakistan has given land to PRC in Kashmir. Who suffered the loss (make sure you are careful when ignoring Kashmir people views). Has Pakistan given any land to anyone before (apart from loss in war).
- Kargil - where was PRC support.
- 1971 - where was PRC support.
- PRC and America got together because of Pakistan. Look at where PRC is and track their projectile after 1970s (ultimately they ought to thank Pakistan). Has Pakistan been rewarded.
- PRC is using Pakistan against India. Look at where PRC is (ultimately they ought to thank Pakistan). Has Pakistan been rewarded.
- Pakistan is controlling itself in Western PRC. Has Pakistan been rewarded.
- Pakistan gave PRC (some) nuclear capability. Has Pakistan been rewarded.
- Pakistan allowed access to PRC to its western weapon system. Has Pakistan been rewarded.
- Peaceful Pakistan elections. Where was PRC support.

(not being rewarded fully is also suffering loss).

Pakistan is owed a huge debt by PRC for many things it has done for them. In fact it can be believed that Pakis would feel a sense of compunction and regret and caution when dealing with PRC. For example getting the Americans and PRC together revolutionized the PRC and in fact even led them to get a seat on UNSC. Yet they never talk about such things. The PRC does not even hang a portrait of yahya khan on their walls.



Most importantly the five decades of being used against India and continues to be used has developed a huge debt and what has been the reward. You got to agree with that - Pakistan is not rewarded enough and properly and has suffered loss against PRC because of its anti-India policy. Pakistan deserves much more for what they have done for PRC with its anti-India policy and hedging. It is incalculable and inestimable it is something that PRC will never be able to satisfy because it is a massive tribute that Pakistan can claim. Dont be ashamed about this and also dont have any shame asking for PRC to compensate a occurrence that will happen many many times.

But what do we see. PRC comes to Pakistan and does what it wants that is in its self-interest. Gwadar post is a PRC military post for its own benefit. Pakistan only can say PRC is on its lands. That alone is shameful like the drone attacks. It would have been something if PRC outsourced to Pakistan what they are doing in Gwadar.

3. Pakistan will never become North Korea
North Korea is a satellite state of PRC that needs to comply and get authorization and endorsement from PRC for everything it does. What is happening in Gwadar is a military outpost is been equipped and developed for and by PRC. The Pakis have only provided land and the PRC people have said they would do the rest. The PRC even has contractors working inside Pakistan and Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Does Pakistan know what PRC is doing. They are using PRC resources to build PRC related infrastructure. PRC is treating Pakistan like a province. PRC is wanting Pakistan to be a North Korea. What next Pakistan leaders need to go to PRC to get authorization and endorsement from PRC for everything it does.

You seem to not want to be like North Korea -> why is that. Whats wrong with North Korea. Is Pakistan a ally of North Korea. Do your personal views conform to PRC views towards North Korea at this moment (ignore the reunification issue). Is there any disagreement there.

North Korea–Pakistan relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.defense.gov/pubs/ReporttoCongressonMilitaryandSecurityDevelopmentsInvolvingtheDPRK.pdf



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghauri_(missile)


Some-say PRC has started to get warmer with South Korea and there is now talk about Korea reunification. Does that mean if India gets warmer with PRC the PRC will abandon Pakistan. South Korea is playing it well with PRC and some-say the calculation is that PRC is not against Korea reunification. For example North Korea cannot prevent PRC from getting closer to South Korea. Can Pakistan prevent PRC from getting closer to India.

Park Looks to Once-Divided Germany to Spur Korean Reunification - Bloomberg

- The geo-political importance of Pakistan is simple. It is anti-India (only). That is from its history, reason for creation, and constitution. But being anti-India is not absolute and it can be displaced. But once Pakistan displaces its anti-India objectives it looses any worth.

How would India make Pakistan move away from being anti-India. That is the beauty of our times. Thats when you ought to say ... please do not forget Afghanistan, Shia-Sunni dynamics and Middle east, Arabian Sea, and more. The more you say such things the less you become Paki

 
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bennedose

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Gwadar corridor to China is indeed a great economic requirement for the Chinese that they are ready to lose Chinese lives for.

Once the corridor is on stream, more Chinese lives will be lost, because the insurgent would not accept that non Balochis alone reap the harvest while they wallow in poverty and neglected and slighted.
All invaders who came up to the Indus in the past were badly delayed or stopped in the treacherous Afghan mountains. Unless someone builds a new roadway from Central Asia, through the mountains and through Pakistan there will ne NO link betwen Central Asia and any Pakistani port.

The Karakoram highway between Pakhanastan and Xinjiang was blocked 3-4 years ago by a landslide. It has still not been reopened. There is no easy way to link China with Pakistan via those young crumbly mountains. Even if Baluchis welcomed the Chinese and said take everything we have, that road or rail is not going to materialize.
 

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@Ray, brilliant analysis and ripping-apart of that farticle. :thumb:
 
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Samar Rathi

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Being worlds largest arms importer makes you the biggest ghulam of the west with $15 billion per year flowing out of the country each year.

UK and Germany have US bases, Japan and South Korea have American bases.
Chinese bases in Pakistan should be seen in same light. No shame about it, its a result of long and time tested alliance which has never harmed us.

No it doesn't make us gulam but it makes us dependent on the country we are buying weapon of and only in American case weapons come with lots of baggage so i don't agree with your point here but understand the semantics.


Those country you mentioned don't have independent policy thus they are under American influence and they won't do a thing without asking their master for permission hence they are gulam.

Post british India had same thoughts about east India company and look what happened so we will see how things turned out but i am sure you don't care about pakistani people and their rights ,all you taught from the begining to have only one objective "Destroy the enemy(India) at all cost.
 

bennedose

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Five years ago, China was the world's biggest arms importer and Pakistan was China's biggest importer. So in Pakistan we have a case of gulam of gulam - the douchebag Pakistan used by the whore.
 

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