PAKFA & FGFA News and Discussions

[zraver]

F-16 pilots do both regularly, A-10 pilots do not.

combat is combat to an extent, they are still killing people and delaing with that psychic trauma.

What do you think the A in A-10 stands for?? It stands for GROUND ATTACK.

A - Ground Attack [1962-today]

And F stands for FIGHTER.

F - Fighter [1962-today]

Current Designations of U.S. Military Aircraft

Yup, the F-117 was such a wonderful fighter, as was the F-111

BTW, care to explain this pic?

or these unit designations

TankKiller.com - A-10 Warthog, Squadron Patches, Unit Information

Now, lets look at what you posted again.

The article states that the jets flew that many hours, it doesn't say that is the pilot average. Since we don't know how many pilots are in the squadron, we can't possibly guess what their exact average is. Since squadron rosters generally have more butts than seats, its safe to say it is considerably less. When you cut the planes in half but keep the same number of pilots, it will drop by more than half. Different squadrons get different hours, different types get different hours. Comparing an overworked A-10 squadron in Astan, where most fighter squadrons will never see, is not logical. The F-16's pilot averages are specific, to the point, and the largest number of inventory ACs. Your comparison is not and doesn't hold water.

In the US pilots are assigned to particular aircraft and their name is stenciled on it. There are a few more pilots than aircraft but they are generally in a nonflying role.

 

[bhramos]

at last this is a way how PAKFA would looks

may be this would be real.

 

[bhramos]

PAKFA pic in Russian mazgine

 

[p2prada]

US pilots are more likely to have seen combat of any type and the US average is 290-300 hours a year for a state side squadron and 1000+ for a unit in cobmat.

I got the less than 250 hours/year flying hours from a USAF F-15C fighter pilot. It happened in Cope India (- don't know which year). He compared F-15C pilot experience in the US compared to the MKIs 300 hours/ year. He was supposedly "surprised." Looking for the link again will be a pain. So, you just have to take my word for it.

PPP is misunderstood and will not bring down the difference. As the Indian economy grows the PPP modifier will reduce but more importantly you can use a basket of good (PPP) to buy arms. Where the US gets to fund its own RND across the board, India has to spend to create the infrastructure the US built between 1930-60. Finally rapid growth leads to inflation.

However, as Badguy2000 suggested you are not calculating the exchange rate which is the basis for PPP. If the Rupee Dollar ratio comes down to 1 right now(from 45 currently). India will have a ~$50Trillion economy in pure statistical terms. And at the same time the defence budget will be more than $1Trillion. But, this will never happen immediately. It takes time, say 30-40 years for this kind of change to take place.

Rapid Growth leads to inflation. We will only have to work towards better distribution and reducing debt in order to control inflation.

if India reaches 3% and stays there and the US remains at 4% the time period to catch up is measured in centuries not decades. By the time India reaches a 2 trillion dolalr economy its defense spending will be just 80 billion.

India is set to reach ~$2Trillion in another 3 years, something like $1.3 or $1.35 Trillion this year alone. At growth rates of 10% an economy doubles every five years. Growth rate for 2009-10 is set to be 8%.

Some economists predict growth rates of beyond 13% or even 15% post 2015, when Indian manufacturing sector takes off. Still it is only a prediction, so we will keep away from it until 2015.

If you want to buy technology on the world maket the reverse is true. This if India wants to buy a $1000 weapon it has to spend 3000 Rupees. PPP only works for baskets of local goods at the civilian level. Until India can produce 100% of the systems it uses from scratch to finish PPP will be offset by having to use an inferior currency on the world market.

Will not deny that. However, local manufacturing and the offset clause always helps keep the money within the country. Some will be lost. But, no one's complaining.

Manufacturing 100% systems from scratch will not be possible in the near term.

other things being equal yes but other things are not equal. The US and India both have vast talent pools, although Indians tend to leave India. The problem is that in India these bright spots of national hope are swarmed under by dark pits of poverty, environmental damage and over crowding. India is going to have to spend hundreds of billions or more to tackle these issues.

Still India is achieving 8%+ growth even after the brain drain. A lot of people do tend to come back. Also, the NRIs(Non resident Indians) are pouring in at least $50Billion every year with the highest coming in from the US and the Gulf countries.

Poverty is rampant in India and a lot of resources will go into uplifting millions. However, this is a short term goal, some say it is achievable in the 2020-25 period. So, I don't see how it will affect our calculations in the 2040 period, 30 years later.

Inflation is a bad thing at that rate. Worker A who made 100 a month with a 20% inflation rate per year now either needs to be paid 120 a month which reduces competitiveness or he has less buying power which causes social unrest.

It is still not that bad as to create unrest over price hikes. In India what reduces competitiveness is labor unrest and govt protecting labor rights unlike in China. Other than that the Rupee-Dollar ratio is too great for us to lose out to competition this early.

In 1990 the Iraqi air force had fighters and pilots that had shot down US F-14's and even a serving US F/A-18 namely the Mirage F-1 (built at or after the same time as the USAF F-15's they fought against) and Mig-25's. The F-15 waxxed the floor with them.

These are one of engagements. It does not indicate the effectiveness of a system as a whole. In all the wars the US has fought after the creation of the F-15, the enemy has been under trained, under equipped and lacked funding. The amount of troops and resources US mobilized for those operations far exceeded the five year GDP of the "rogue" countries. Middle Eastern Aircraft lacked ECM and ECCM suites itself against the Israelis.

The Iraqi F-1 and USAF F-15's were the same generation both had experienced pilots and the Iraqi's had seen combat and had shot down US contemporaries to the F-15 and the F-15 mauled them.

They are two totally different class of aircraft. The F-1 is single engined and barely had any legs compared to the F-15. The quality of US pilots cannot be compared to the Iraqis either. So, the Iraqis lose in both fronts, training and equipment. Experience will not help you against 30000lbf of thrust.

When a senior instructor is recorded privately talking to a private group cleared for that info I think he is believable. On the face of it I think the Indians tried to mix it up (what good fighter pilot doesn't have faith that he and his plane are #1 and wants to prove it) and got spanked.

I am not talking about Col Ternof at all. The MKI scenario was given by a journalist briefed about the Red Flag. Like I said, the MKIs were given SEADs mission without radars, without chaffs and flares and with only verbal comm to the AWACS.

Anyway, our man called MKI's Saturn engines as Tumansky and explained about non existent FOD damage and gave the Bison an Israeli radar. Too many mistakes all at once. Some of his points were right and some where wrong. Even the fact that the MKI drops during the stall maneuver is wrong.

we will find out some day. Its not really any more complex than the active cancellation technology used to reduce RCS. Just more power and a different target. The f-22 radar makes enough power to do it and is agile enough to do it.

Gambit mentioned about Active cancellation. He says it is still not ready and will be a future potential upgrade. And trust me HPM is not easy. It is less to do with power and more to do with channeling. This is because of the attenuation in the atmosphere.

perhaps not a Mig-25 but an aluminum or composite skinned aircraft, oh yes it can. it takes less than a second for a 100kw system to burn through a steel mortar shell. A laser 10x as powerful against a material with 10x less strength.

The Math will only work in vacuum. Attenuation will kill laser strength by a huge %. Fact is Laser is merely highly charged photons. The photon course and strength is influenced by a magnetic field inside the laser system. Once the photons leaves the "muzzle" of the laser system, it is history. The power will dissipate like crazy once it touches the atmosphere which has heavier atoms like Nitrogen.

it takes less than a second for a 100kw system to burn through a steel mortar shell.

That depends on the test conditions.

More importantly, YAL-1 has only been tested against non manuevering targets that only follow a ballistic profile like missiles that just took off or artillery shells falling down. None of it has been against a maneuvering body like a fighter.

Also many engineers are still sceptical about the YAL-1 program and say that there are way too many hurdles to be crossed. Robert Gates has also hinted scrapping the program all together. Perhaps more info will come out in 2010 after Obama's budget speech.

Here,
Pentagon proposes to revamp spending priorities, shut down F-22-06/04/2009-Washington DC-Flightglobal.com

Another major aerospace target was in the area of missile defence, especially the Boeing YAL-1 Airborne Laser. The first prototype will be kept as a research asset, but Gates will propose scrapping the second planned prototype.

Wrong the YAL-1 was designed to cover an entire theater 400-700km

It may be designed for it. But, how much of it is achievable in the real world? Designing something and operationalizing it are two totally different things. It is achievable, but not this early.

 

[zraver]

I got the less than 250 hours/year flying hours from a USAF F-15C fighter pilot. It happened in Cope India (- don't know which year). He compared F-15C pilot experience in the US compared to the MKIs 300 hours/ year. He was supposedly "surprised." Looking for the link again will be a pain. So, you just have to take my word for it.

And based on the links I provided the US is 291 hours befire combat assignments. Roughy comparable with a slight edge to the US pilots due to 2 ongoing wars.

However, as Badguy2000 suggested you are not calculating the exchange rate which is the basis for PPP. If the Rupee Dollar ratio comes down to 1 right now(from 45 currently). India will have a ~$50Trillion economy in pure statistical terms. And at the same time the defence budget will be more than $1Trillion. But, this will never happen immediately. It takes time, say 30-40 years for this kind of change to take place.

A strong currency is a double edged sword and rapid currency inflation by itself cannot close the gap. For example less say the exchange rate goes from45:1 to 22.5:1. US products that use to cost 100 rupee now cost 50. This is good for US industries who can now sell more products. However it is bad for India because things that use to cost $100 dollars in the US now cost $200 so American consumers will look elsewhere. India wants a low exchange rate.

Rapid Growth leads to inflation. We will only have to work towards better distribution and reducing debt in order to control inflation.

As workers become more central to growth, labor pushes for more pay for their efforts. This causes an inflationary cycle as wages goes up so do costs. You can't avoid it. Government can also cause inflation. Growing economies are going to have inflationary problems except in rare cases where the government is willing to use force to stop it like China.

Will not deny that. However, local manufacturing and the offset clause always helps keep the money within the country. Some will be lost. But, no one's complaining.

Most will be lost, Company A gets the bid to produce Y for X. A has to spend C on local offsets and local spending and D on wages, I is money spent to bring in stuff that cannot be sourced locally and E is money paid to A's talent pool that can't be duplicated locally with P being the money that outflows to A's corporate headquarters.

Lets say x is 100. Wages in india are low say lets say C is -5. a 20% offset would be -20 plus another -20 for local mateiral. That leaves 55 as an outflow to A's headquarters or other international businesses/suppliers.

Poverty is rampant in India and a lot of resources will go into uplifting millions. However, this is a short term goal, some say it is achievable in the 2020-25 period. So, I don't see how it will affect our calculations in the 2040 period, 30 years later.

India is going to be fighting the poverty battle for a lot more than 30 years. With hundreds of millions in poverty, mostly unpaved roads, building environmental issues etc its going to be a long expensive road.

These are one of engagements. It does not indicate the effectiveness of a system as a whole. In all the wars the US has fought after the creation of the F-15, the enemy has been under trained, under equipped and lacked funding. The amount of troops and resources US mobilized for those operations far exceeded the five year GDP of the "rogue" countries. Middle Eastern Aircraft lacked ECM and ECCM suites itself against the Israelis.



They are two totally different class of aircraft. The F-1 is single engined and barely had any legs compared to the F-15. The quality of US pilots cannot be compared to the Iraqis either. So, the Iraqis lose in both fronts, training and equipment. Experience will not help you against 30000lbf of thrust.

I guess you missed the point where the F-1 had multiple victories against the F-14. Iraqi F-1's had ECM and combat experienced pilots yet you continue to ignore these facts in order to make the USAF less than it is.

I am not talking about Col Ternof at all. The MKI scenario was given by a journalist briefed about the Red Flag. Like I said, the MKIs were given SEADs mission without radars, without chaffs and flares and with only verbal comm to the AWACS.

Anyway, our man called MKI's Saturn engines as Tumansky and explained about non existent FOD damage and gave the Bison an Israeli radar. Too many mistakes all at once. Some of his points were right and some where wrong. Even the fact that the MKI drops during the stall maneuver is wrong.

agree to dissagree.

The Math will only work in vacuum. Attenuation will kill laser strength by a huge %. Fact is Laser is merely highly charged photons. The photon course and strength is influenced by a magnetic field inside the laser system. Once the photons leaves the "muzzle" of the laser system, it is history. The power will dissipate like crazy once it touches the atmosphere which has heavier atoms like Nitrogen.

Youtube MHTEL please



That depends on the test conditions.

More importantly, YAL-1 has only been tested against non manuevering targets that only follow a ballistic profile like missiles that just took off or artillery shells falling down. None of it has been against a maneuvering body like a fighter.

its a speed of light weapon designed to track and engage targets traveling much faster than any manned aircraft, targets that are also much more heat resistant than fighters.

 

[enlightened1]

found the article prada, but this one's in Russian though

The "bisons" came out excellently"
To some sums of Indian- American exercises in India

From 19 to 24 November, 2005, in India were carryout the joint Indian- American exersises. The informed source in the region of military technical collaboration with the foreign countries in the conversation with the correspondent "aviaPort..Ru" commented some sums of the joint exercises of two countries.

From the Indian side in the studies have participated Su-30MKI's, modernized MiG-21bis with onboard RLS "Kopyo -21", MiG-27, MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage. The aircraft of distant radar detection and control OF AWACS participated from the side OF THE USA. In to the so-called first wave of studies participated lightweight fighters F -16s with the equipment block 50 with finished BRLS "68", and in the second wave - the heavy fighters F -15.

F -16s block 50 are some of the most perfect planes of American AF with passive ESA radar. Only the fighters of the last modification F -16 block 60 are equipped with active impulse antenna cascade .

Data of study were the third according to the calculation. In previous two theAmerican side, with advancing heavy fighters F -15 , completely lost all combat, moreover sometimes the relationship of losses it reached 8:1 and 9:1 in favor of Indian pilots. Russian Su-30MKI showed the suppressing superiority over F -15 both on the maneuverability and on the combat effectiveness. The effect was the torn bomb for the Americans became application in training combat of the light modernized destroyers MiG-21bis with the airborne radar (BRLS)"Kopyo -21" - these destroyers, possessing small RCS, actually on the equal "battled" with the the contemporary F -15 and won in them. Both Russian and American aviation specialists noted the extremely high level of the professional flight training of the crew of the line units AF of India. In many parts of the AF of India the annual fly expierence of crew comprises to 300 hour (in THE USA - 250 hour, in Russia - 30-40 hour).

the Americans recently noted two factors - combat Su-30MKI and with those modernized MiG-21bis "bison". Moreover MiG-21bis "bison" it participated both in the air battles and in the war shooting against the ground targets.

As already was communicated, the Indian destroyers Su-30MKI won the majority of air combats with lightweight fighters F -16s. MiG-21bis "bison" as a whole they also showed themselves well. In all in the studies participated several destroyers MiG-21 of different flying line units VVS of India.

MiG-21bis "bison" revealed F -16 at the distance 60 km, which corresponds to its declared characteristics. Destroyers F -16 revealed MiG-21bis "bison" by approximately the same distance - in F -16 somewhat more powerful than BRLS, but RCS of the MiG-21bis "bison" are less than in F -16.

The Americans analyzed rather well previous air "combat" with MiG-21bis "bison" and drew the specific conclusions - they increased the zones (distance) of launching AAMs . However, the increase in the zone of launching AAMs by destroyers F -16 was given only due to reduction in the probability of destruction of target.

Under the effects along the ground targets Indian pilots on MiG-21bis "bison" simply amazingly conducted the bombardment of ground targets with the free-falling bombs - with the discharge of aircraft bomb from the distance of 1,5 km from the ground target, its deviation from the purpose comprise practically "zero". The Indian side noted that the assault actions MiG-21bis "bison" by aircraft bombs are performed on this destroyer was "excellently".

As yet there is no reliable information about actions and results of the war shooting of American side, they will appear more lately. American participants in the studies speak about the relationship of the effectiveness of air it is combat in relationship 50:50, i.e., even with the presence OF AWACS, Americans consider the absence of the suppressing superiority of Indian pilots on the Russian fighters .

Until today the absence of the suppressing superiority of Indian pilots on Russian aviation engineering forced Indian AF to solve the problems of retaining its advantages in the larger volume. Thus, in the course of the carried out exercises the destroyers MiG-29 of Indian AF themselves "did not show something eminent" and therefore now the Indian side is approached the fastest conducting of the modernization of combatant MiG-29 in its AF.

Source: site"aviaPort..Ru"
Correspondent: Dmitriy Kozlov
babelfish translation "??????" ????????? ?? "???????" // ????????.???????

 

[enlightened1]

Col Ternoff made too many mistakes during his briefing, these articles provide sufficient information about IAF's performance at red flag.

About the speaker

Colonel Terrence Fornof (Colonel is equivalent to a Group Captain in the IAF) is an F-15 pilot and the Director of the Requirements and Testing office at the United States Air Force Warfare Center, Nellis AFB, Nevada. The lecture above is a private briefing in August 2008 to a group called the “Daedalians”. The Daedalians are a local group of retired military pilots.

Per the press statement handed out by Nellis AFB: “Col. Fornof did not mean to offend any U.S. allied forces, as he knows firsthand the importance of training with allied forces and the awesome firepower they bring to the fight. His comments during this briefing were his personal opinions and not those of U.S. Air Force Warfare Center or of the Air Force. “

Comments and Analysis

Despite Col. Fornof having observed Red Flag up close, his comments should not be treated as the gospel truth - there is a possibility that he is ‘playing to the gallery’. His comments carry weight since he is an operational pilot with the USAF but he certainly cannot cover the entire exercise and has no inside knowledge of the way IAF ‘fought’. Nevertheless, even though his comments appear to be negative about the IAF to the uninformed listener; overall he has actually praised the IAF and its performance.

* The Su-30MKI did not use the data link in the exercise unlike the other air forces. The reason being the HAL supplied system is not compatible with NATO data links – neither is the system required to be compatible with NATO. The speaker clearly mentions that the high fratricide ratio in the kills was because of this reason. While NATO air forces are designed to inter operate with each other and carry out joint missions, the IAF is not.

* Su-30MKI is equipped with its own data link which can share target information across multiple fighters. IAF is presently inducting A-50EI Phalcon AEW&C aircraft. Red Flag and other exercises before it have seen IAF working very closely with the AWACS crew of the other air force. Operational Data Link (ODL) will be provided to all fighters in the IAF over the coming years.

* The IFF system used by IAF is not compatible with NATO standard, hence the need for verbal communication with the controller.

* The aircraft were operating their radars on training mode since the actual signals with which the Bars radar operates are kept secret.

* The high mix of highly experienced pilots in Ex Cope India, if true, cannot be consistent across all sqns that were involved in the exercise. During Cope India, the 24 Sqn operating Su-30K/MK was first Flanker unit in the IAF and only one of two Su-30 units in the entire IAF at that time. To find a concentration of senior pilots in these squadrons will not be unexpected given that these units will be forging doctrines and tactics and building up a pool of pilots. Per article on Cope India here; “Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India's top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots.”. Moreover, the mix of experience needs to be examined for the USAF squadrons as well. The aggressor squadron at Nellis and the F-22 attracts the best in the USA.

* MiG-21 Bison does not have an Israeli radar as noted in the lecture. The type is equipped with a Phazotron Kopyo (spear) unit. The Kopyo radar has a 57km detection range against a 5 m^2 (54ft^2) radar cross section, or fighter-sized target. It can track eight targets and shoot at two simultaneously.

* Su-30MKI is equipped with Saturn AL-31FP engines, not Turmansky as mentioned in the lecture

* Soviet era aircraft were designed to operate from poorly prepared airfields. For example; MiG-29 closes its intakes during taxi and take-off to avoid ingestion of FOD thrown up by the front wheels. In this state the engines are supplied air thru louvres located on upper surface of the leading edge. This design feature is at the cost of significant internal fuel capacity and hence has been eliminated in newer MiG-29 versions starting with the K/KUB variants. Flanker come with lighter anti-FOD grills in the intakes as well as wheel fenders that catch FOD. IAF has precautions built into their SOPs – which may be overlooked in case of war or any such exigency. Since the deployment was far away from home base in the USA, with no spares support and related infrastructure it was well worth to observe strict adherence to SOPs instead to being stuck with a grounded aircraft!

* This is not the first time the MiG-21 Bison has been praised for successes during dissimilar air combat training (DACT) – even during previous USAF exercise and internal IAF exercises pilots are known to have scored ‘kills’ against more advanced adversaries. The small size (lower visual signature) and inherently small radar cross section coupled with modern avionics, radar, effective jammers, precision guided munitions and missiles (R-73, R-77) make Bison one of the best fighters in IAF after Su-30 and Mirage-2000. IAF’s has had good experience with small jets such as Gnat which earned the reputation of “Sabre Slayer” in the 1965 war with Pakistan. The under-development LCA Tejas promises to carry on this legacy when it replaces the Bison.

Under the glare of the world’s attention the IAF pilots, crew and their aircraft have clearly acquitted themselves well in Ex Red Flag 2008. This exercise was the most complex environment IAF worked in, even more than the Cope Thunder exercise in Alaska where Jaguar IS fighters had participated. The challenges faced were because of the operational environment, training rules and airspace restriction where the IAF is not expected to fight a war in any case. Shortcomings must have come up – but then that is exactly why IAF is training for.
Exercise Red Flag 2008-4 / Su-30MKI vs F-15, F-16, F-22

Vishnu Som, Associate Editor and Senior Anchor at NDTV, was the only journalist from India at Red Flag 08, and in that sense, best placed to talk about what happened there. He sent us a very comprehensive comment to the last post on the leaked video controversy. Vishnu has allowed me to post his excellent comment here as a column. Thanks Vishnu!

For all of you who are out there in the internet world and who have an interest in the performance of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag 2008 .. I have a few remarks. As the only Indian journalist who spent a lengthy period of time at Nellis after being granted permission by both the Indian Air Force and the US Air Force, I was granted access to impeccable sources in both forces.

Whats more, I was able to independently corroborate this information with reliable, alternative sources. Several of the points I present here in the form of this post on the Bharat Rakshak forum will be compiled into an article which I will post on my company website ndtv.com. For those of you not familiar with the Indian media ... New Delhi Television (NDTV) is India's largest 24 hour news network and our website is one of the most viewed among news websites in the country. For the moment, I have decided not to do a television news report on this since I believe the contents of this post are too technical for a larger audience.

For starters ... and this cannot be stressed enough ... the Red Flag exercises were a brilliant learning experience for all the participants, not least of all the Indian Air Force which, over a period of time, has earned the reputation of being one of the world's finest operational air forces.

This was a reputation which was reinforced at Red Flag 2008, the world's most advanced air combat exercises where the Indian Air Force fielded a number of state of the art Sukhoi 30 MKI jets in addition to IL-76 transports and IL-78 mid air refuellers.

For other participants at the Red Flag exercises ... namely the South Korean Air Force, French and US Air Force ... the opportunity to train with a platform such as the Sukhoi 30 MKI was an opportunity which just couldn't be missed. This has a lot to do not just with the jet but also with the air force operating the fighter, a force which has made a mark as an innovative operator of fast jets.The US Air Force … the host of these exercises … was singularly gracious in its appreciation for the Indian Air Force contingent which came into Red Flag having trained extensively for the exercises not only back home but also at the Mountain Home Air Force base in the US.

Contrary to unsolicited remarks by certain serving US personnel not directly linked to day to day operations at the exercises … the Indian Air Force and its Su-30s more than made a mark during their stint in the United States.For starters … not a single Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter was `shot down’ in close air combat missions at the Mountain Home air base. In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results. Indian Air Force Sukhois did use their famed thrust vectoring in these one on one engagements. Contrary to what may have been reported elsewhere … the Su-30 has a rate of turn of more than 35 degrees when operating in the thrust vector mode. In certain circumstances, this goes up substantially.

By the time the exercises at Mountain Home had matured … the Indian Air Force had graduated to large formation exercises which featured dozens of jets in the sky. In one of these exercises … the blue forces, of which the Indian Air Force was a part … shot down more than 21 of the enemy jets. Most of these `kills’ have been credited to the Indian Air Force.

By the time the Indian Air Force was ready for Red Flag, the contingent had successfully worked up using the crawl, walk, run principle. At Red Flag though, they found themselves at a substantial disadvantage vis a vis the other participants since they were not networked with AWACS and other platforms in the same manner in which USAF or other participating jets were. In fact, Indian Air Force Sukhois were not even linked to one another using their Russian built data links since American authorities had asked for specifics of the system before it was cleared to operate in US airspace. The IAF, quite naturally, felt that this would compromise a classified system onboard and decided to go on with the missions without the use of data links between the Sukhois.Neither was the Indian Air Force allowed to use chaff or flares, essential decoys to escape incoming missiles which had been fired by enemy jets. This was because the US FAA had visibility and pollution related concerns in the event that these were used in what is dense, busy air space in the Las Vegas region.

The Red Flag exercises themselves were based on large force engagements and did not see the Indian Air Force deploy thrust vectoring at all on any of the Sukhoi 30 jets not that this was required since the engagements were at long ranges.Though it is true that there were 4-5 incidents of fratricides involving the Indian Air Force at Red Flag … it is important to point out the following:In the debriefs that followed the exercises … responsibility for the fratricides were always put on the fighter controllers not the pilots. Its also important to point that unlike in Mountain Home, none of the Indian Air Force’s own fighter controllers were allowed to participate since there was classified equipment at Nellis used for monitoring the exercises. The lack of adequate controlling and the fact that Nellis fighter controllers often had problems understanding Indian accents (they had problems understanding French accents as well) resulted in a lack of adequate controlling in situations. Whats more … given the fact that the availability of AWACS was often low … the bulk of fratricides took place on days when the AWACS jet was not deployed. Whats important to remember though is that US participants in these exercises had a similar number of fratricides despite being fully linked in with data links and the latest IFF systems.

So was the Indian Air Force invincible at Red Flag. In a word … no. So yes, there were certainly days in which several Sukhoi jets were shot down. And there were others when they shot down many opposing jets. Ultimately though … the success of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag lay in the fact that they could meet their mission objectives as well, if not better, than any other participant. Despite the hot weather conditions, the IAF had a 95 per cent mission launch ratio, far better than some of the participants. And no one went into the exercises thinking the score line would be a perfect one in favour of the IAF. In fact … the IAF went into these exercises with an open mind and with full admiration of the world beating range at Nellis with an unmatched system of calibrating engagement results.Perhaps the most encouraging part of these exercises comes from the fact that the Indian Air Force’s young pilots … learnt from their mistakes, analysed, appreciated and came back strong. Mistakes were not repeated. In fact … the missions where the IAF did not fare well turned out to be immense learning experiences. At the end of the exercises … its more than clear that the IAF’s Su-30s were more than a match for the variants of the jets participating at the Red Flag exercises. Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar … held up just fine in training mode …despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force.

As for its young pilots … these are skills and experiences that they will take back to their squadrons … experiences which will be passed on to a whole new set of pilots who will come into the next set of exercises that much wiser.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: LiveFist Column: Vishnu Som first-hand on what really happened at Red Flag 08

 

[zraver]

Despite Col. Fornof having observed Red Flag up close, his comments should not be treated as the gospel truth - there is a possibility that he is ‘playing to the gallery’. His comments carry weight since he is an operational pilot with the USAF but he certainly cannot cover the entire exercise and has no inside knowledge of the way IAF ‘fought’.

100% incorrect

Look at his job, since he is responsible for training the tip of the spear he has access to American pilots, gun camera footage and radar tapes that combine to paint a very clear picture of what went on.

Director of the Requirements and Testing office at the United States Air Force Warfare Center, Nellis AFB, Nevada

Journalist vs Fighter Pilot/ training director

I know who I'll believe.

 

[Armand2REP]

Its pretty clear USAF pilots get 250 hours on average. 200 state-side and 300 on deployment =250 average. We now have three sources confirmed.

 

[p2prada]

found the article prada, but this one's in Russian though

Thanks mate. But this wasn't the one. The one I was talking about was quoted by a USAF pilot.

A strong currency is a double edged sword and rapid currency inflation by itself cannot close the gap. For example less say the exchange rate goes from45:1 to 22.5:1. US products that use to cost 100 rupee now cost 50. This is good for US industries who can now sell more products. However it is bad for India because things that use to cost $100 dollars in the US now cost $200 so American consumers will look elsewhere. India wants a low exchange rate.

The Americans will not get to choose as much. There will come a time when we will start outsourcing jobs to the US. The exchange rate can never go from 45 to 22.5 : 1 in the short term. The Govt will not allow that to happen. The 45:1 suits us best.

However, growth is inevitable. The 22.5:1 will happen in some point of time in the next 30 years and that will mean doubling of the economy, albeit over time.

The same thing is happening in China. The exchange rate ratio reduced from 8:1 to 6.15:1. This raised their economy in Nominal terms by a huge margin.

As workers become more central to growth, labor pushes for more pay for their efforts. This causes an inflationary cycle as wages goes up so do costs. You can't avoid it. Government can also cause inflation. Growing economies are going to have inflationary problems except in rare cases where the government is willing to use force to stop it like China.

This is the case all over the world. Wages in India increase by more than 15% every year. It only means more buying power and the money is always circulating within the country. This will lead to increased creation of jobs and contribute to India's growing GDP. Price hikes only affect the big corporations and the govt who will have to pay more. But, in an economy like India(developing), as a whole, price hike is a good thing. This increases the Consumer base.

The rules for developed countries is wholly different. In developed countries growth is very small. So, there is no room for increasing salaries indefinitely.

Inflation is always a pain. But, growing economies have the ability to control inflation at a better rate than the developed countries simply because of high growth rates.

Lets say x is 100. Wages in india are low say lets say C is -5. a 20% offset would be -20 plus another -20 for local mateiral. That leaves 55 as an outflow to A's headquarters or other international businesses/suppliers.

I would say C is close to -20 to -40. And offset clause is 50%. 10 people's salary here is equal to one in the US. The factory workers here are especially cheap. No health benefits, crappy salary, long shifts, non contract work etc etc.

India is going to be fighting the poverty battle for a lot more than 30 years. With hundreds of millions in poverty, mostly unpaved roads, building environmental issues etc its going to be a long expensive road.

Not possible. In 30 years we will be a developed nation, or close to it. At least something better than a third world. Studies indicate if India is able to manage a 9% growth for 10 more years, poverty can be eradicated. The numbers look daunting now. But, they are not as bad if you look at the fact that India was able to reduce poverty by 50%-60% in the last 50 years at an average of 4% growth in GDP.

I guess you missed the point where the F-1 had multiple victories against the F-14. Iraqi F-1's had ECM and combat experienced pilots yet you continue to ignore these facts in order to make the USAF less than it is.

Sir it is the exact opposite. You are making non-American aircraft less than it is. I am not sure how many engagements were lost by the F-14s and how many won. The fact is no matter how good the Iraqis were or how good their aircraft were or how good their training were, the Iraqis were seriously outmatched by the USAF and the USN.

If the Iraqis had the Flanker and if they were well trained on it, perhaps this discussion would have been more balanced.

its a speed of light weapon designed to track and engage targets traveling much faster than any manned aircraft, targets that are also much more heat resistant than fighters.

The laser itself is fast. But, the tracking systems may not be fast enough. A missile's flight path is known the moment it takes off. Deviation is out of the question. So, the Laser tracking system will find it easier to hit a missile. However a plane is out of the question. A fighter like the Flanker can climb 10000 ft in less than a minute or descend even faster. There is no way the tracker will be able to pinpoint any particular weak point on the aircraft to exploit. That kind of capability does not exist even with AESA, especially if it is conducted in a dense electronic environment.

Yes, Laser has been used to hit artillery shells and so has the Patriot and the Arrow. But, does that indicate the feasibility of operationalizing such a system when neither the Patriot or the Arrow is operational as of now.

The X-43 has been tested for hypersonic speeds. So, does that mean fighters can now be fitted with Scramjet engines or can they at least be developed in the short term for fighters? No. Designing a system and operationalizing a system are two very different things. The YAL-1 is still undergoing tests which may even get scrapped. So, it only makes it as speculative as the Plasma stealth.

 

[enlightened1]

100% incorrect

Look at his job, since he is responsible for training the tip of the spear he has access to American pilots, gun camera footage and radar tapes that combine to paint a very clear picture of what went on.

Director of the Requirements and Testing office at the United States Air Force Warfare Center, Nellis AFB, Nevada

Well you're the think tank, but tell me, is the Director of the Requirements and Testing office at the United States Air Force Warfare Center, Nellis AFB, Nevada who is entrusted with so much responsibility, supposed to continuously make mistakes one after another during a debrief?

Journalist vs Fighter Pilot/ training director

I know who I'll believe.

Well in this situation the average journalist seems to know better than the Director of Requirements & Testing etc...

 

[bhramos]

In January-February Russia is also beginning flight tests of the prototype of new fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) T-50 developed by Sukhoi Corporation under the secret PAK-FA project, in which India is also a partner.

In December at the KNAAPO aircraft plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in the far eastern part of Russia the taxiing trials of the prototype were successfully carried out. "A satellite cluster of American CIA and Google, which is also a cover for CIA is constantly monitoring the airfield of KNAAPO, to get the glimpse of T-50, developed to counter US F-22 Raptor," a defence analyst Ruslan Pukhov told Vesti FM radio.

Russia to produce T-95 tanks, Mig-35 fighter jets

what would Russia's response for US SPY Sate's over their heads???

 

[enlightened1]

Russia to produce T-95 tanks, Mig-35 fighter jets

what would Russia's response for US SPY Sate's over their heads???

Nothing...this has been going on since the cold war..no big deal

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

Pak-Fa or its Simulator?

This pic is of AF chief Zelin.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

 

[enlightened1]

Pak-Fa or its Simulator?

This pic is of AF chief Zelin.

It's difficult to say...interesting detail though; the canopy slides backwards

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

T-50 Cockpit

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

Aircraft facility at KnAAPO.

 

[Armand2REP]

T-50 Cockpit

Looks a bit cluttered even for Russian design. Compare to Su-35BM...

Compare to Rafale...

 

[ptldM3]

T-50 Cockpit

Where did you get that information from? That just doesn't look like a 5th gen cockpit. The SU-35, Mig-35, and Mig-29k cockpits look much more edvanced.

I would love if it looked like the Mig cockpit: http://i41.tinypic.com/20qxldt.jpg

EDIT i thought you meant PakFa, i guess it's okay for the T-50