Pak shells India, India retaliates

Discussion in 'Subcontinent & Central Asia' started by IBSA, Oct 6, 2014.

  1. Free Karma

    Free Karma Senior Member Senior Member

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  2. Simple_Guy

    Simple_Guy Regular Member

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    Pakistan is a basket case and will end up as a UN protectorate. That is why they keep asking for UN help.
     
  3. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

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    1. The Talk are scheduled telephonic one and takes place every Tuesday. And what will DGMO say, IB is manned by BSF and shelling was done by BSF.

    2. Last year too UNMOGIP visited POK villages, to take the stock of the damages, please do tell what was the outcome of the visit?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
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  4. tramp

    tramp Senior Member Senior Member

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    There is little room for manoeuvre for the Pakistani military after forcing Sharif to rake up the issue in the UN and following it up with LoC/border firing... all part of a strategy to try and internationalise Kashmir, which is the only way to keep world's attention on the issue. And also divert the fire from its domestic constituency which is highly resentful of US/Nato violations on the western border.
    So we will see more flareups on LoC/border.

     
  5. dastan

    dastan Regular Member

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    So how long are they planning to keep this up?
     
  6. tramp

    tramp Senior Member Senior Member

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    That will depend on Pakistani army's risk appetite which in turn would depend on domestic and regional development like on the Afghan border. We will have to wait for that... may be until the Zarb-e-Azb is over in the tribal areas.

     
  7. Ahsan Bin Tufail

    Ahsan Bin Tufail Regular Member

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  8. rock127

    rock127 Maulana Rockullah Senior Member

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    Re: Permenant solution to pakistani menace

    I had a talk with few middle eastern guys in last few years and saw how they used to support Pakis because Pakis are "Muslim".

    But after telling them how Pakistan has literally butchered Muslims(specially Shias,Bangladeshis,Baloch,various Muslim tribes in NWFP) and all the minorities their views were changed and today even Muslim countries don't like Pakis and as a fact Arab countries treat Pakis as crap.

    No one likes Pakis since Pakistan is a Un-Islamic country.Pakis are the biggest hypocritic Islamic country.

    Even pakis themselves have started hating their country(they act as Indians abroad to evade discrimination) and their ideology since Pak Army is ruling them with iron fist and never allow a civilian govt.

    Pak Army is the BIGGEST Muslim Killer who has killed 3 Million Bangladeshi, 100,000 Kashmiris,10,000 Baloch,60,000+ Paki Muslims in WOT and still killing and killing anf killing.

    The recent skirmish is nothing but to distract the "Azadi March".
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
  9. Neil

    Neil Senior Member Senior Member

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    Doctrine of graduated escalation


    Narendra Modi’s cautious, measured start has masked his discreet gradualism. Border and other provocations are moulding his policy approach, founded on the premise that preventing hostile actions hinges on India’s capacity and political will to impose deterrent costs as a response

    The India-Pakistan “peace process” has produced a lot of process over the decades but no peace. While India is a vibrant, buoyant nation, Pakistan remains a notion in search of a national identity. Yet, given Pakistan’s foundational loathing of India, many among Pakistani strategic elites still pine for India’s unravelling or at least Balkanisation.

    In this light, the Pakistani military has again escalated border tensions with India. Since the deadly 2008 Mumbai attacks it scripted, it has initiated intermittent exchanges of fire along the Line of Control (LoC), including this summer and then in recent days. This month’s artillery exchanges along the LoC were unusual in terms of their ferocity and the sudden eruption in violence, resulting in the highest single-day death toll in over a decade.

    Difficult road to peace

    In provoking a second series of firing duels along the LoC since Prime Minister Narendra Modi took office, the Pakistani military establishment — which includes the rogue Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) — was doing more than using gunfire as cover to allow Pakistan-trained militants to infiltrate into India. It was also testing the resolve of India’s new government while simultaneously undermining Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and derailing any prospect of a rapprochement with India.

    Every time a Pakistani leader wishes to build better ties with New Delhi, his effort is undermined by the military masterminding a serious cross-border attack or terror strike. Indeed, it was during Mr. Sharif’s previous stint in office that a major Indian peace initiative — as symbolised by then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s bus diplomacy — collapsed spectacularly, with the bus itself getting hijacked allegorically to Kargil, triggering a war. This has served as a cautionary lesson on how the pursuit of peace can lead to war when one side’s military is not answerable to the civilian government.

    The Pakistani military actually sought to test Mr. Modi soon after he won the national election. On the eve of his inauguration, ISI-backed militants stormed the Indian consulate in Afghanistan’s western city of Herat. The Pakistani plan was to take some Indians hostage and bring India under siege just as Mr. Modi took office. The plan, however, went awry as Indian security guards at the consulate heroically killed all the attackers.

    The U.S. blamed the Herat attack on the same ISI front organisation it held responsible for the 2008 Mumbai strikes — the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT). The LeT’s leader, Hafiz Saeed, remains the Pakistani military’s darling, with his public life mocking America’s $10-million bounty on his head and the U.N.’s inclusion of him on a terrorist list.

    The daring attack in Herat, 1,000 kilometres from Pakistan, must have had the ISI’s nod. The ISI’s “S” branch — tasked specifically with aiding and abetting acts of terrorism in India and Afghanistan — handles the LeT, the Jalaluddin Haqqani network and other terror organisations. This shows that the ISI is itself a terrorist entity.

    The ISI is searching for new tools and methods to bleed India. In this context, is this fountainhead of transnational terror now using Osama bin Laden’s close associate, Ayman Zawahiri? The aging Zawahri, who U.S. officials say is hiding in Pakistan, announced the formation of an Indian branch of al-Qaeda in a videotaped message released early last month. The 55-minute video, in which Zawahiri threatens terrorist strikes across India, indicates that he is not holed up in some mountain cave but ensconced in a safe house, as bin Laden was.

    Pakistan’s internal dynamics

    The ISI’s war by terror is a reminder that the scourge of cross-border terrorism emanates more from Pakistan’s whisky-sipping generals than its rosary-holding mullahs. The real jihadists are the self-styled secular generals, who have reared the forces of jihad and fathered the LeT, the Taliban and other terror groups. In fact, Pakistan’s descent into a jihadist dungeon occurred not under civilian rule but under two military dictators — one (Zia ul-Haq) who nurtured and let loose jihadist forces, and another (Pervez Musharraf) who took his country to the very edge of the precipice.

    Another reminder is that India-Pakistan relations will be shaped largely by Pakistan’s internal dynamics, especially its civil-military relations. Although it is in India’s interest to help strengthen Pakistani civilian institutions, Pakistan’s civil society remains too weak to influence the direction of ties with India. In the absence of a structural correction to Pakistan’s historically skewed civil-military power equation, a peace dialogue with India only encourages the Pakistani military to carry out cross-border shootings, ambushes and acts of terror.

    Mr. Modi and Mr. Sharif come from the political right and enjoy parliamentary majority. Both are business-oriented and eager to revive flagging economic growth at home. Yet the expectations raised by Mr. Sharif’s presence at Mr. Modi’s inauguration proved false because they failed to factor in the role of a powerful, meddling third party — the Pakistani military, which holds virtual veto power over any fundamental change to the India-Pakistan dynamic. This party is simply not ready to allow better bilateral relations because that will undermine its extraordinary power and privilege in Pakistan.

    It is not an accident that this month’s border provocations by Pakistani forces followed a power struggle in Pakistan that culminated with Mr. Sharif’s wings being clipped and the military reasserting authority in foreign policy. Mr. Sharif has emerged as a diminished figure and the main loser from a crisis triggered by street protests that were tacitly backed by the army and the ISI. With the military back in the driving seat without staging an overt coup, Pakistan’s democratic transition has again been disrupted.

    Such has been Mr. Sharif’s weakening that he not only had little say in the recent appointment of the new ISI chief, but also his government, at the behest of the military, has sought to re-internationalise the Kashmir issue. The intensity of ceasefire violations indeed was designed to help shine an international spotlight on Kashmir and also demonstrate as to who is in charge of Pakistan’s foreign policy.

    Mortar-for-bullet response

    Mr. Modi’s cautious, measured start has masked his discreet gradualism. Border and other provocations are moulding his policy approach, founded on the premise that preventing hostile actions hinges on India’s capacity and political will to impose deterrent costs in response to any aggression. In Mr. Modi’s policy of graduated escalation, pressure on the adversary begins at low levels and then progressively increases in response to the target’s continued provocations and aggression.

    There was no Indian reprisal to the Herat attack, and India’s response to the summertime border shootings was circumspect. But, in keeping with the doctrine of graduated escalation, this month’s Pakistani machine-gun fire along the LoC brought a heavy response, including retaliation with 81-mm mortars, which have a range of up to five kilometres. Mr. Modi wasn’t exaggerating when he said publicly, “Pakistan has been taught a befitting lesson.”

    A peace dialogue between India and Pakistan only encourages the Pakistani military to carry out cross-border shootings, ambushes and acts of terror

    The mortar-for-bullet response suggests that India’s policy of appeasement since 2003 is officially over. Indeed, to underscore that times have changed, the Modi government was quick to scrap Foreign Secretary-level talks in August after the Pakistani High Commissioner in New Delhi defiantly met Kashmiri secessionists. For Islamabad, meeting Pakistan-backed Kashmiri separatists was “business as usual,” but for Mr. Modi’s government, such interaction was simply unacceptable.

    Mr. Modi is showing he is no Vajpayee, whose roller-coaster policy on Pakistan traversed through Lahore, Kargil, Kandahar, Agra, Parliament House and Islamabad, inviting only greater cross-border terrorism. And Mr. Modi is clearly no Manmohan Singh, whose peace-at-any-price approach was founded on the naive belief that the only alternative to do nothing in response to terror is to go to war. So, whether it was the Mumbai attacks or a border savagery, such as a captured Indian soldier’s beheading, Dr. Singh responded by doing nothing.

    The real choice was never between persisting with a weak-kneed policy and risking an all-out war. Indeed, that was a false, immoral choice that undermined the credibility of India’s own nuclear deterrent and emboldened the foe to step up aggression.

    The Modi government, by building a range of options, including to neuter Pakistan’s nuclear blackmail, is indicating that Pakistani aggression will attract increasing costs. If the ISI is planning new attacks in India, with the intent to fob them off as the work of al-Qaeda’s supposed new India franchise, it can be sure that it will invite an Indian response imposing serious costs on the entire Pakistani security establishment.

    Mr. Modi is clearly signalling that India’s response to the Pakistani strategy to inflict death by a thousand cuts will no longer be survival by a thousand bandages, but punitive so as to bolster deterrence and mend conduct. Given that the “do nothing” approach allowed India to be continually gored, prudent gradualism has been a long time coming.

    (Brahma Chellaney is a geostrategist and the author, most recently, of Water, Peace, and War.)

    Doctrine of graduated escalation - The Hindu
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
  10. IBSA

    IBSA Senior Member Senior Member

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    Gandhi's philosophy of non-violence (ahimsa) did so much bad for India's strategic culture.

    The truth isnt that 'violence leads up to more violence', but that 'more violence (by State) leads up to less violence (by terrorists)'

    Only the violence solves! :gun: :shoot: :devil:
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
  11. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    The concept of non-violence is morally upright, but I agree, it doesn't always work. One has to fight back and kick where it hurts.

    @Neil, thanks for sharing that excellent article by Brahma Chellaney.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
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  12. Kshatriya87

    Kshatriya87 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Sorry, my bad. Wrong choice of words. :toilet:
     
  13. tramp

    tramp Senior Member Senior Member

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    Non-violence is an individual choice. It is not for strategists. India's strategic failures were not the result of non-violence as a state policy (it never was) but ineptitude, especially of the Congress party.

     
  14. thethinker

    thethinker Senior Member Senior Member

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    Army recovers Pakistan origin Claymore mine, averts major tragedy on LoC | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

    For the first time the Indian army has recovered a lethal claymore mine having 800 pellets with a killing area of 50 meters and danger area of around 200 meters, on the Line of Control (LoC) in Saujiyan sector of Poonch district. "A Pakistan origin claymore mine along with a knife, shawl, tracksuit and caps was recovered in Saujiyan sector on October 14 by an alert LoC domination patrol. The mine recovery reaffirms the handiwork of inimical terrorists and subversive elements in spreading acrimonious activities on LoC and hinterland," said Lieutenant Colonel Manish Mehta, defence spokesman at Jammu.

    Security analysts suspect that the mine could have been planted by the Border Action Team (BAT) of Pakistan to cause large scale casualties at a time when the tensions are mounting on the LoC and International Border (IB) following relentless firing and shelling from across the border. BAT is a mix of Pakistani troops and the militants of Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohommad which are used as the force multiplier on the LoC.

    "The Indian army continues to enhance and upgrade its vigil on a daily basis resulting in such recovery of lethal mine which has 800 pellets and has a killing area of 50mtrs and danger area of around 200mtrs. Indian Army is fully prepared and geared up to handle any such misadventure or nefarious design of terrorists and inimical elements. It will continue to thwart all such activities," he said.

    Lieutenant Colonel Mehta noted that the LoC has always been facing acts of uncalled for aggression from across in various forms but the alert Indian Army deployed in the challenging terrain of Pir Panjal mountains have always been answering these provocative acts with resolute, firm and appropriate response.

    "With no headway being made on any ground whether the IB or LoC, inimical elements have now started taking assistance from the terrorists in planting IED and mines on the LoC. The incidents of IED in Balnoi Sector on October 10, is one such example," he said.

    The defence spokesman said the high reaching yet challenging treacherous terrain of Poonch has been often used by "inimical elements" to give shape to their evil designs. "It has always flaunted the rights and dignity of civilian population by targeting them both during Ceasefire Violation and by planting IED on roads being used by them also," he said.

    Meanwhile, Pakistan has shifted its focus from IB to LoC by resorting to heavy firing and shelling in Sabzian sector of Poonch on Wednesday. Sources said Pakistan resorted to heavy fire using small arms and 82 mm mortars from 9 am to 12 30 pm. Indian army gave response in equal measure to silence the Pakistan guns, sources added.
     
  15. thethinker

    thethinker Senior Member Senior Member

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    In trouble, Musharraf rakes up Kashmir like every ruler in Pakistan - Hindustan Times

    Former Pakistani military ruler Pervez Musharraf, the architect of the Kargil war in 1999, has turned to raking up Kashmir again at a time when his troubles are mounting.

    On the standoff between India and Pakistan along the Line of Control (LoC) and International Border (IB), Pakistan’s Daily Times quoted him as telling a private TV channel that Pakistan had limitations, as it knew if it responded with shelling, “Kashmiri brethren” would be the ultimate sufferers.

    This is in line with his stated position that “Kashmir is our national interest, let nobody have any doubt about it”.

    In the report published earlier this week, Musharraf said that both the Indian government and the army had no concern for the sufferings of the Kashmiri people. “Mr (Narendra) Modi (India’s Prime Minister) is an anti-Muslim and an anti-Pakistan politician. While negotiating with him one must hold cards close,” he said.

    “Instead of running to attend his (Modi) inauguration like we used to do in British Raj, we should keep our dignity,” he said in an apparent dig at Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif who attended Modi’s swearing-in ceremony in New Delhi on May 26.

    Musharraf’s shrill note coincides with rising legal troubles. On Tuesday, a Pakistani court summoned him in the 2007 murder case of Lal Masjid cleric Abdul Rasheed Ghazi and threatened to issue an arrest warrant against him if he failed to turn up for the hearing on November 8.

    The court in Islamabad rejected Musharraf's plea seeking exemption from appearance due to health problems and security threats from Islamic militants.

    Musharraf’s lawyer had produced a medical certificate showing that the former president was suffering from a sore back. Musharraf, 71, is currently on bail in the case.

    Musharraf had grabbed power in 1999 and was forced to resign in 2008 after his supporters lost polls.

    He returned to Pakistan in 2013 after over four years of self-exile but faces a slew of cases. Currently, he is on bail in four criminal cases while a treason case is going on in a special tribunal.

    Musharraf is not the only one talking Kashmir these days.

    Bilawal Bhutto Zardari, son of slain former Pakistan prime minister Benazir Bhutto, said last month his Pakistan People’s Party would “take back all of Kashmir” from India.

    His father, former president Asif Ali Zardari recently described Kashmir as the “jugular vein of Pakistan” and said the party would raise the issue at international forums.

    Pakistan repeatedly tries to make Kashmir an issue internationally.

    Sharif raised the issue in the United Nations, but there was little response. His effort failed to draw any new response from the world body, which reiterated that India and Pakistan had to resolve all differences through dialogue.

    The 2003 ceasefire agreement along the LoC has been repeatedly violated over the years.

    Earlier this week, India said it was willing for a “serious dialogue” with Pakistan on all outstanding issues, including Kashmir, within the framework of the Simla agreement and Lahore declaration and Islamabad’s tactic of seeking to internationalise the Kashmir issue would not succeed.

    “We have already stated that we are willing for serious dialogue in this framework. It will cover all issues including that of Jammu and Kashmir. It seems from what Pakistan is doing, it is not interested in this kind of dialogue,” external affairs ministry spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin said.
     
  16. IBSA

    IBSA Senior Member Senior Member

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    I think maybe non-violence can be successful in some types of social struggles. The problem is that Gandhi followers wanted to spread his moral principles to all dimensions of social and political life. Jawarha Lal Nehry wanted to apply Gandhism on foreign policy, but Gandhi never was a thinker of international relations.
     
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  17. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    I assume weapon was given to Pak by US.

    M18 Claymore - Anti-Personnel Mine - History, Specs and Pictures - Military, Security and Civilian Guns and Equipment

    http://www.firstpost.com/world/why-...weapons-to-be-used-against-india-1042879.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2014
  18. cobra commando

    cobra commando Tharki regiment Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Indian Army razes 19 terrorist camps in PoK

    New Delhi : The army has destroyed 19 terrorist camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK) while retaliating to unprovoked firing on civilians in Jammu and Kashmir by Pakistan forces. This was disclosed in a report submitted to Defence Minister Arun Jaitley by General Dalbir Singh Suhag. The report says there were more than 2,000 terrorists waiting in camps on the LoC to cross over and some of them were killed in the army action. Some of the terror camps were close to Pakistan army check posts and several of them were also damaged. Truce violated again Meanwhile, Pakistani troops violated the ceasefire twice on Friday LoC in Poonch district, inviting retaliation from the Army, PTI reports. “There was small arms and automatic weapons firing by Pakistani troops on Indian posts along the LoC in Hamirpur sector of Poonch district,’’ a senior Army officer said. There was no loss of life.
    Army razes 19 terrorist camps in PoK | Free Press Journal
     
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  19. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

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  20. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

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