Pak shells India, India retaliates

Free Karma

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2013
Messages
2,372
Likes
2,600
There's method in Pakistan's border - Lt Gen (Retd) Syed Ata Hasnain

There's method in Pakistan's border madness - Economic Times

Social media in is abuzz with a variety of opinion about what is happening at Jammu & Kashmir's Line of Control (LoC) and the International Border (IB). Most comments are by people who do not know the context of J&K too well and cannot remember the pre-ceasefire period prior to Nov 26, 2003. Listening and watching visual electronic media gets adrenaline flowing but that explains nothing about context and only snippets (sometimes nuggets) are taken and discussed.

So what really is happening at the LoC and the IB (Pak calls it Working Boundary in its belief that it is not the final border).

Internally imploding and externally getting less significant Pakistan is indeed worried. It has no common thread of policy due to different stake holders dictating different narratives and the Chief Executive horribly out of control. To make it worse, across the border the Indian State seems to be going from strength to strength with an economic revival on the cards, a strong leader in charge with intent of securing for the Nation its legitimate rights and an increasingly confident foreign policy. That policy also clearly projects that there will be no more talks unless Pakistan stops sponsoring terror in India. The contrast could not be worse. Pakistan's relevance lies in being hyphenated with India but that may soon be history.

Build the scenario further. The India focused Jihadi groups who have been Pakistan's force multipliers all this while are clamouring for more support to up the ante in J&K lest they get completely insignificant. As it is, they are being threatened into becoming bit players or just surrogates as the high profile ISIS with Taliban on board and the Al Qaida in competition, look towards the subcontinent. The Jihadi groups perceive that Pakistan's internal security campaign against the TTP is marginalising their importance.

Then comes the disastrous flood in J&K and suddenly there is a huge emotional connect from Rest of India through relief material and of treating it as an opportunity to work the Modi wonder; perhaps even make Srinagar and Jammu the first two of the hundred smart cities the prime minister intends to convert. It couldn't get worse for Pakistan; twenty five years of effort to make India bleed by a thousand cuts is under threat.

To top it all, there just aren't enough foot soldier terrorists left in J&K and no leadership at all to at least create some disruption and some turbulence during the upcoming high profile elections to J&K's assembly.

Efforts to infiltrate some terrorists in the Valley sector during the great deluge a month ago and thereafter have led to their near annihilation at the LoC.

In spite of all this, Pakistan's intellectuals offer the oft-repeated argument about their army and nation's fight against terror which supposedly leaves it no time to concentrate on J&K. That is exactly the point I am making; the Jihadi groups and the ISI wants more concentration on the Eastern front to prevent them all becoming history.

Just two other issues, in the limited space here. Why is the IB sector the target this time? Tactically, this is the best ground for infiltration and immediate targeting of suitable objectives in a very short time frame; the fence has been damaged by the floods and the BSF is doing a wonderful job with lesser than optimum density of deployment.

Where is this likely to go from here and is it any different to the situation last year? Well, the times appear to have changed drastically within a year. With a strong government and leader at the Centre, the Nation is definitely handling the situation better. Freedom to the Army does not translate into a free for all as many may perceive.

There is a level of calibration and India is correctly ratcheting its response appropriately. The warning to Pakistan should be clear; India's limit of tolerance will be crossed if Pakistan or the Jihadi groups under its control dare a trans LoC kind of an operation.

The response will immediately go up by many notches and we would be willing to risk a permanent breakdown of the ceasefire.

Handling the LoC requires insight into sensitivities of implications of every kind resulting from every action. It is not a situation which needs only bravado; much can be achieved through a range of almost unlimited options military commanders can employ but each must carry with it a message. It is an environment for thinking soldiers, politicians and diplomats, all affected in different ways. But central to the response is the need to be firm and committed to a strategy while retaining flexibility to wrest additional advantage at the termination of the standoff.
The author is possibly the next governor of Kashmir, Hasnain Likely To Replace Vohra | Kashmir Life.
And is also a visiting fellow at the Vivekananda International Foundation think tank, whose founder is Ajit Doval.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
so you mean to say we need to forget POK? which legally speaking belongs to india.
No do not forget but also do not capture as yet to finally assimilate. Keep the problem alive and keep poking Pakistan with the sharp knife called POK. Do capture it when Chinese have pumped in sufficient money in constructing silk route through POK to connect with Gwadar. That will be the time.... otherwise why spend so much in feeding that useless population. Let Pakistan do it.

and also i always use to wonder what exactly does pakistan mean when they say solve kashmir issue.
What they mean is that the foundation of their state that Muslims can not coexist with Hindus is threatened when J&k, a Muslim majority state is happy with Hindus. Their ideological foundations are shaken by that. Tomorrow Sindhies may also opt to be part of India as J&K is. If Kashmiris can live together with Hindus why not Sindhies and others. For Indians it is symol of their secularism which further becomes a cause for Pakistan to break it.

Secondly, more important than that is that Pakistanis and especially the Punjabies amongst them wish to secure the source of their water and livelihood which remains under the control of India. Today everything is alright, tomorrow it may change and India may deny the water.

Thirdly, That gives Pakistanies a strategic advantage vis a vis India to mount major offensives on India from J&k and have a direct boundary and easy land link with China.

Fourthly, after defeat of 1971, they think this is the only way and route to avenge 1971 by breaking India.

do they mean that both india pak should let go the state or just india should let go.
Here the Pakistanis want to have the cake and eat it too.
Their first stance is - J&k Can only decide between India and Pakistan. ( and so Muslims will decide for Pakistan)
When they felt that Kashmiris may not decide in favour of Pakistan then their unpleasant stand is that let them decide for independence. Agar mere sath nahin to tere sath bhi nahin. Par Bharat ke sath nahin.

Then for last 65 years or so they prepared J&K in their favour by:
* Radical Islamisation of the population, and
* Driving Hindus out of valley - ethnic cleansing.

Having done that they now shout more vehemently for referendum.. Who do they consider fools ?. Having prepared the ground in their favour for 64 years , or may be post 1989 , now they want referendum. who on earth will agree.

Pakistan is then ready to settle for annexation of only Kashmir valley as it serves most of their purpose as became evident from Chenab formula, backdoor diplomacy . MMS - Mushraf formula etc.

and do you think its really bad idea to conduct a referendum like scotland in POK and j&k? can india really afford to let go j&k considering india has already pumped so much money to run that state past 65 years.
It is not the question of pumping the money. It is the question of foundation of India as a state. It is question of conducting a referendum on a issue for which a radicalisation and ground preparation took place over last 65 years. It is a question of shaking the basics of Independence of India act which decided that Maharaja of J&K is free to join any one side. And He joined India.

The issues and Pakistani perfidity is simple and one does not have to know rocketry for that. Pakistanis are liers, untrustworthy, disloyal and backstabbers. They will only relent when they will lose Pakistan over the issue of J&K.
 

sorcerer

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
26,920
Likes
98,472
Country flag
As I see it, UN has not really been able to solve problems. Though its an entity its functions are more hypothetical when it comes to war and (t)error. UN is like an age old grandpa who sits on the lawn watching kiddos play with guns and artillery.
 

bengalraider

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
3,779
Likes
2,666
Country flag
The UN today is little more than a glorified version of the league of nations that existed during the inter war years, it's just as honorific and meaningless
 

Neil

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
2,818
Likes
3,546
Country flag
Inside story of flag meetings in the theatre of the absurd


ess than a month ago, BSF jawans could not fathom why they were greeted by a burst of fire from Pakistan at the International Border (IB) when all they were doing was planting a mango sampling well within Indian territory. The post commander sought a flag meeting.

At the meeting, the Pakistani Rangers objected to the tree planting. The BSF company commander relayed the objection to his boss and the message went all the way up to inspector general Rakesh Sharma, who ordered the Indian forces to stop the planting exercise.

A few days later, Indian jawans responded with a burst of fire and this time the Rangers wanted to know why.

"We asked them, have you eaten roti today? Have you done your ablutions?" says Sharma. "The message went home. We told them whether you piss or not is your problem, because you are doing that in your own territory."

Flag meeting records perused by Hindustan Times are comical and border on the nonsensical.

They would make for a perfect cartoon strip if they weren't also tragic, because tension on the international border often results in casualties on both sides.

At one such flag meeting last year — after a BSF jawan fell from an observation post after being hit by a bullet — Pakistani Rangers told their Indian counterparts that he had perhaps committed suicide.

Aghast, the BSF commander said, "We have the bullet. India doesn't use this ammunition.''

The reply from the Rangers was, "You have terrorists in Jammu & Kashmir. We have no terrorists in Pakistan. May be he was targeted by a terrorist.''

The BSF commander retreated and pondered over the futility of flag meetings.

"It really hurt when they said they have no terrorists when they are the ones training them and sending them to India," a BSF officer said.

The BSF had a lot to cheer about in the current flare-up at the IB, when they got instructions from the Narendra Modi government not to seek a flag meeting.

The stand-off has instead been marked by a response that has left the Pakistani Rangers wondering.

"They probably thought we would seek a truce again, but the orders were clear and we hit them hard. I hope they have understood that if they mind their business, we will mind ours,'' said Sharma.

The no-flag-meeting directive came after a quick data analysis.

The current flare-up, in which the entire 192 km stretch of the IB was affected, came soon after India had sought 18 flag meetings during the ceasefire violation in July and August that lasted 42 days.

Indian jawans kept standing at the border holding flags but got no response from Pakistan.

"We hope the no-flag-meeting policy stays," a BSF official said.



Inside story of flag meetings in the theatre of the absurd - Hindustan Times
 

Neil

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
2,818
Likes
3,546
Country flag
Let's cut the crap on the India-Pakistan border tension
Four reasons why the current exchange of fire on the India-Pakistan border is unprecedented.

Let's cut through the bullshit. If that's even possible at a time like this.

The only thing that's more confounding than the fog of war is the fog of near war. As 81 millimeter mortar shells whizz and bang across the international border in both directions; as television brings us images of petrified civilians bolting in the dark as the skies over the "chicken's neck" sector of Akhnoor are lit up by the arcs of incoming fire; as the ever eloquent conversation on social media is propelled by such subtlety as #BuzdilPakistan and #CowardModi – this is as old as the conflict itself.

The tantalising fog of fighting presents the delectable opportunity to obfuscate, muddy, divert. To transform what's grey into black and white.

To make what's not entirely clear, absolute. Who fired first? Who escalated a par-for-the-course exchange of festival fire? Has Pakistan learnt a lesson?

All questions that present a sumptuous opportunity for spiralling debate, conspiracy theories and a handful of sentiments masquerading as patriotic nationalism. But to even presume, to be able to cut through the bullshit, would need a clinical assessment of India's retaliation, unsullied by the swaying forces of sentimentalism and politics.

You've heard numbers all week on the news. Eight dead. 30 injured. 60 border posts targeted. 81 millimeter. 16,000 evacuated. 15 temporary camps.

Here are four reasons why the current exchange on the border is unprecedented in the steadily tenuous 11-year history of the India-Pak ceasefire.

1) As the lead story in today's Mail Today reports, the Pakistan establishment, fattened for years on the impression that an Indian retaliation will be token and result in no real damage, was shaken by the swiftness and intensity of the response. Nobody will confirm this for you officially, but every Pakistani shell that landed in Jammu triggered ten Indian shells smashing into Pakistan. Fire included the use of rocket-propelled grenades.

2) The Indian forces operating on the international border and along the LoC, to the south of Pir Panjal, specifically targeted permanent fortifications, bunkers and defences built by the Pakistan Army and other agencies primarily as border outposts, but also to facilitate infiltration of terrorists. Again, you'll never have an official confirmation but the political leadership has been briefed by the Army about severe damage to the bunkers in several locations.

3) Beyond the public statements - or lack thereof - from the political establishment, there was no political diffidence within the security command structure. The message to the forces on the ground was clear. There was no hesitation. In public, the message was that Pakistan could forget about talks until its guns fell silent. On the phone and in operations rooms, it was less ambiguous: do what's necessary to make those guns fall silent; the message has to be unmistakable. As anyone will tell you, a commander on the ground values clarity from the civilian leadership as much, if not more than the trust of his forces. The BSF and Army had a sharp brief: graduate your responses, but shake the Pakistanis off their gun positions.

4) There was clarity in the government's own public voice too. It was simple: everybody wants peace. India wants peace and isn't an aggressor, but let there be no mistaking that for weakness. It is precisely the opposite -- a distinct lack of clarity, of political purpose, of Delhi's approach in the past that has emboldened the impunity with which Pakistan provoked in 2013. Pakistan has in the past, been allowed to exploit the confounding and dangerous interference of Delhi's political impulse for peace with the more immediate need for the resolution of a tactical situation on the border. This time there was no interference. The message was clear: Prime Minister Narendra Modi today backhanded the clamour for him to speak about the border tension by saying our guns were doing the talking. Defence minister Arun Jaitley's statement was less of a cowboy quip, but said it clearer: "Pakistan, in these attacks, has clearly been the aggressor. But it must realise that our deterrence will be credible. If Pakistan persists with this adventurism our forces will make the cost of this adventurism unaffordable."

What's happening, and hopefully winding down now, at the border has everything to do with matters as specific as the free hand -- or lack thereof -- our security forces have when dealing tactically with Pakistan, to the larger question of whether this could be the beginning of a turning point in Pakistan's own predilection for provocation, the reasons for which go beyond the scope of this column and have everything to do with Pakistan's political own situation, the upcoming elections in Jammu & Kashmir and a combination of other apparent factors.

But there's no black and white. Ever.

by Shiv Aroor

Border tension: Let's cut the crap
 
Last edited:

Blackwater

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
21,157
Likes
12,211
The Gift

A few years ago, the terrorist organization Hamas, sent a gift to the
"‹ "‹
President of Israel in an elaborate box with a note.
After having the box checked for safety reasons, the President of
"‹ "‹
Israel, Shimon Peres, opened the box and saw that
"‹ "‹
the content was faeces (shit).
"‹ "‹
He opened the note which said "For you and the proud people of Israel."

Being a wise and experienced person, he decided to
"‹ "‹
reciprocate,
"‹ "‹
sending Hamas a very pretty package and a note.
The leaders of Hamas were very surprised to receive the parcel and
"‹ "‹
opened it very carefully suspecting that it might contain a bomb.
But to their surprise they saw that it contained a tiny
"‹ "‹
computer "chip.
"‹ "‹
The chip was rechargeable with solar
"‹ "‹
energy, had a 1800 Terabyte
memory and could output a 3D hologram display capable of functioning
"‹ "‹
in any type of cellular phone, tablet or laptop.
It was one of the world's most advanced technologies.
"‹ "‹
Invented and produced in Israel.
The accompanying note to the Hamas leaders stated very courteously...


"A leader can give only what his people can produce"


so paki leader can only give what its people can produce

jahalat, jahilpana, terrorist, pressure cooker bomb,jihadi, polio,etc etc
 
Last edited:

Blackwater

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
21,157
Likes
12,211
[video=dailymotion;x27sfqc]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x27sfqc_sawal-yeh-hai-12th-october-2014_news#from=embediframe[/video]




interestingly ,this fake commando did coup on same day in 1999 and today himself outlawed
 
Last edited:

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,593
@Shaitan,

Did they use Bharat 52 and Dhanush at the LoC recently?

So every cross border or cross LoC firing is an opportunity to test our new artillery systems?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Shaitan

Zandu Balm all day
Mod
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,654
Likes
8,363
Country flag
@Shaitan,

Did they use Bharat 52 and Dhanush at the LoC recently?

So every cross border or cross LoC firing is an opportunity to test our new artillery systems?
I was just joking around. Dhanush trials are over and it's ordered. Bharat Forge doesnt have permission to test Bharat 52 in India, unfortunately.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

SADAKHUSH

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
1,839
Likes
780
Country flag
The Gift

A few years ago, the terrorist organization Hamas, sent a gift to the
"‹ "‹
President of Israel in an elaborate box with a note.
After having the box checked for safety reasons, the President of
"‹ "‹
Israel, Shimon Peres, opened the box and saw that
"‹ "‹
the content was faeces (shit).
"‹ "‹
He opened the note which said "For you and the proud people of Israel."

Being a wise and experienced person, he decided to
"‹ "‹
reciprocate,
"‹ "‹
sending Hamas a very pretty package and a note.
The leaders of Hamas were very surprised to receive the parcel and
"‹ "‹
opened it very carefully suspecting that it might contain a bomb.
But to their surprise they saw that it contained a tiny
"‹ "‹
computer "chip.
"‹ "‹
The chip was rechargeable with solar
"‹ "‹
energy, had a 1800 Terabyte
memory and could output a 3D hologram display capable of functioning
"‹ "‹
in any type of cellular phone, tablet or laptop.
It was one of the world's most advanced technologies.
"‹ "‹
Invented and produced in Israel.
The accompanying note to the Hamas leaders stated very courteously...


"A leader can give only what his people can produce"


so paki leader can only give what its people can produce

jahalat, jahilpana, terrorist, pressure cooker bomb,jihadi, polio,etc etc
I am going to use this post on our radio talk shows for Pakistani callers to shut them up.
 

Hari Sud

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
3,701
Likes
8,331
Country flag
Pakistan after misadventure to invite Huriat (a Kashmiri fringe group) for talks to Delhi, just before a very important India - Pakistan meeting after Modi elections, blew it. They completely misunderstood the Indian Prime Minister.

The only thing which Nawaz Sherrif did not plan was that after talks failure, he would face a challenge at home from his political opponents. That took Pakistani Army and ISI to do behind the scene negotiations in which peace was restored to Rawalpindi but Nawaz Sherriff's stature was greatly diminished.

Nawaz went to UN General Assembly to raise the Kashmir issue. Very smart Modi, even at UN took him to task. On return, Pakistani Army with Nawaz's concurrence decided one way to bring India back to negotiations on all matters including Kashmir was to create trouble at LOC and international border. To accentuate the matter, they decided to hit civilian population on the border. That will maximize casualities and bring international attention. India outsmarted Pakistan in that also. They fired back and destroyed their border support infrastructure.

International press, with BBC in the lead was looking forward to magnify the issue by presenting Pakistani version of events. Surprisingly BBC, Reuter and other press agency slowly began to drift towards Pakistani version of events. They were reporting boom of Indian guns in retaliation but failed to report that these were in return for Pakistani firing. Somehow Pakistan wished to make hay in all that military spat.

Today, they have brought the matter to the attention of UN Secretary General, who for the last five years is Mr. Nobody. Pakistan is claiming to be the victim.

What a clever move all along!

To the Americans they have begun talking of nuclear confrontation, which the New York Times and Toronto's Globe & Mail began to listen. All along they forgot that Pakistan has been the biggest liar for the last ten years. They hid Osma Bin Laden for ten years and pretended he did not exist. They are pretending the same about Mulla Omar of the Afghani Taliban. All that Taliban, Haqqani group guns which have been killing Americans and other NATO soldiers are made in Pakistan. The latter supplies all the ammunition which keeps the guns booming. Still America is listening to Pakistan in the matter of nuclear confrontation, instead of telling them to cool it.

There is no Indian diplomatic counter punch. None will be coming as the US State Department is anti Indian. They listen to Pakistan first and make up their mind. Hence mounting any diplomatic effort will be pointless. Very soon US State department will begin calling for cooling off by both sides, meaning India has any role in starting this spat.

That means that Pakistani diplomacy has won this round.

There is a way out - if India senses that US moving in the direction where Pakistan wants it go then, let the tension escalate. Let the war clouds gather. Let America come running to India and then tell them that much of the tension has been deliberately created by Pakistan to have their way of meddling in Kashmir affairs. That India can not allow, hence if a war has to fought on this after a lapse of 50 years (since 1965) then let it be there. India is ready for the Nuclear war, if it comes but will not start it.

Now the nuclear bogey has been called. America will be in a fix. All those diplomatic gains Pakistan has made will get dissolved away in a second. India will not de-escalate. If US wishes its bankrupt but nuclearized ward to be reigned in then, they have to de-escalate. Pakistan cannot afford a nuclear war. It will be self immolation. India is too big, it will survive. That specter will knock sense into Americans and they will force Pakistan to de-escalate.

Result - Pakistani nuclear bogey has been called. Kashmir Issue is permanently solved. The latter solution will be the reason for India to de-escalate.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,834
why they not vacating? its not like if they vacate india will grab it. i think its high time UN should seriously consider to solve the kasmir issue. make pak vacate and ask india too to do so. conduct a refereundum and the whole problem will be solved.
I think that you do not understand realities of the world.

Are you sure Pakistan will believe that if they vacate, India would not occupy?

Why do you think Siachen is not vacated?
 

Ashutosh Lokhande

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
1,285
Likes
568
I think that you do not understand realities of the world.

Are you sure Pakistan will believe that if they vacate, India would not occupy?

Why do you think Siachen is not vacated?
heres where UN role comes into play. they will intervene and make sure both sides withdraw the army and only UN forces will be allowed there till a fair referendum is conducted.
now the question arises should india accept if such proposal is made to indian govt?
i feel theres only to loose from such referendum as i think many would choose pak over india on basis of religion so thats why its better to settle with current status quo and avoid/delay solution of kashmir issue. what you think?
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,834
heres where UN role comes into play. they will intervene and make sure both sides withdraw the army and only UN forces will be allowed there till a fair referendum is conducted.
now the question arises should india accept if such proposal is made to indian govt?
i feel theres only to loose from such referendum as i think many would choose pak over india on basis of religion so thats why its better to settle with current status quo and avoid/delay solution of kashmir issue. what you think?
Once again, you do not understand international and geopolitical realities.

Why should India withdraw?

The UN resolution does not stipulate that.

Your suggestion suggests that we should like supine and let the world walk all over us.

I am afraid no Nation will accept that formula of being walked all over them.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top