Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM

[I_PLAY_BAD]

As I said, NAvy has a better PR. That is all. All other things considered, all the three armed forces are at the same level of indiginisation achievement

IAF supported the LCA from its beginning. LCA would not have happened without IAF support. IN only stepped in at the last moment. Crediting IN with LCA is highly disingenious and unfair for IAF. FOr example, AMCA , being developed by the ADA? is being supported by the IAF and IN is yet to express any interest in it so far. Instead IN is actually eyeing the F35 from what I gather. Does that Make IN traitors? Of course not. They have different force requirements and different objectives. That is all

The SSBN we are building wont even be the biggest in the world, nor will the Aircraft carriers. Compare that with an IAF project like FGFA which when complete will be the best fighter jet in the world. We are talking about a world class fighter jet against a medium sized vessel of the IN. I dont think it is fair to call IAF being less supportive of the indigenous weapons just for that now is it?

Also, if we can build AC and N subs, why is the IN buying scorpenes from France and also looking to buy more such subs from other countries? Does that mean IN is unpatriotic for suporting foreign maal now?

We buy those only in a limited numbers as we cannot build a fleet now as fast as we expect. Till our productions sail we will rely on imports. I am sure we are building an aircraft carrier and nuke subs.

 

[Mad Indian]

We buy those only in a limited numbers as we cannot build a fleet now as fast as we expect. Till our productions sail we will rely on imports. I am sure we are building an aircraft carrier and nuke subs.

So? The same argument can be made about IAF too. IAF is buying what it can abroad because the domestic industry is shit. LCA timeline has been stretching like a rubber band even after IOC being delivered.

As I said, IN has a better PR. That is all. Somehow people here believe that IN is somekind of patriots supporting domestic arms while IAF is being some kind of vilian supporting foreign maal.

The truth is, both are the same. Just that IAF is being made a vilian by the pseudo nationalists here

 

[I_PLAY_BAD]

So? The same argument can be made about IAF too. IAF is buying what it can abroad because the domestic industry is shit. LCA timeline has been stretching like a rubber band even after IOC being delivered.

As I said, IN has a better PR. That is all. Somehow people here believe that IN is somekind of patriots supporting domestic arms while IAF is being some kind of vilian supporting foreign maal.

The truth is, both are the same. Just that IAF is being made a vilian by the pseudo nationalists here

I agree with you in this.
But we did not have the platform to build an aircraft, we are just developing. With more TT and funding we will manufacture aircrafts in a mass-scale in next 15-20 years.
As far as ship building is concerned we have a base and we are utilizing that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vishal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arihant-class_submarine

 

[Nicky G]

As I said, NAvy has a better PR. That is all. All other things considered, all the three armed forces are at the same level of indiginisation achievement

IAF supported the LCA from its beginning. LCA would not have happened without IAF support. IN only stepped in at the last moment. Crediting IN with LCA is highly disingenious and unfair for IAF. FOr example, AMCA , being developed by the ADA? is being supported by the IAF and IN is yet to express any interest in it so far. Instead IN is actually eyeing the F35 from what I gather. Does that Make IN traitors? Of course not. They have different force requirements and different objectives. That is all

The SSBN we are building wont even be the biggest in the world, nor will the Aircraft carriers. Compare that with an IAF project like FGFA which when complete will be the best fighter jet in the world. We are talking about a world class fighter jet against a medium sized vessel of the IN. I dont think it is fair to call IAF being less supportive of the indigenous weapons just for that now is it?

Also, if we can build AC and N subs, why is the IN buying scorpenes from France and also looking to buy more such subs from other countries? Does that mean IN is unpatriotic for suporting foreign maal now?

Lets not use words such as traitors for any of our armed forces. As I said, there is never going to be a straightforward answer for this and the levels of support for more indigenous projects will vary with specific situation including time, budgets, other developments etc. etc.

Obviously IAF championed LCA at early stages, but now they might see that as a limiter to the number of other jets on their wish list such as the Rafael. I am not crediting one force over another, merely stating what seems to be the present situation.

Well just as the SSBN we are building won't be the biggest or best in the world, our LCA MK I or II would be hardly the best. We'll get better with time at both of them. As for FGFA, lets wait and watch, I only see more inevitable delays in the future. Moreover is that as indigenous as our SSBN or AC?

I am sure there are a lot of factor for buying subs from France; one straightforward being, we should concentrate on building nuclear powered ones on our own rather than spend limited resources on conventional ones.

Again, its not a matter of who's more patriotic, its that there is an urgent need for more indigenous production and all forces have to balance their immediate needs with long term self-reliance. My initial point was to drive that home in the context of Russia selling advanced fighter jets to the Pakis, thus, the direct reference to IAF.

 

[blueblood]

@Nicky G , Russia will continue to play major role in Indian defence procurement. Pakistan's appetite for armaments is huge as long as they are getting it for free or by "soft" loans. Russia is neither USSR nor PRC. They don't have deep enough pockets.

A single submarine tender is worth more than the entire Pak defence procurement for a decade.

How many Su-35 the morons at IDRW and Sputnik think Pak can buy and maintain? They don't have enough money to buy J-10, something they tried to do since Mushy was president.

Almost every single Pakistani and most Indians don't realize the dire situation of Pakistan's defence spending. Pak is maintaining the force ratio 1:1.5 in most sectors at 1/6th the budget of India. They do it by spending money on outdated or used or inferior products in smaller numbers and make a big deal out of it.

Russia offered Pak Mi-28NE same as India. They inturn selected Mi-35 which India is retiring and even then they ordered a measly 4 units.

Again, Russia is offering doesn't mean Pak is buying. Pak has also been offered Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen.

 

[Mikesingh]

SOURCE: SPUTNIK

Expansion of military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have any negative effect on relations between Moscow and New Delhi, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday. Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.

http://idrw.org/russia-pakistan-hol...-35-confirms-russian-deputy-foreign-minister/

Does Pakistan have the resources to buy even one SU-35 fighter? The cost is $65 million a pop! That means Rs 700 crores PKR. Add to that the life cycle costs and it would come to a mind boggling Rs1000 crores each!

They'll be beyond bankrupt!

It's better they deploy that amount for health, education, poverty elimination etc!

 

[Mad Indian]

Lets not use words such as traitors for any of our armed forces

I am not calling them traitors. I am just pointing out how ridiculous some pseudo nationalists sound here. there was a moron , who was saying that Army does not deserve the OROP because they dont support indigenous weapons. This was even more amusing when that said moron is living in USA working for Americans. What do you think about that?

As I said, there is never going to be a straightforward answer for this and the levels of support for more indigenous projects will vary with specific situation including time, budgets, other developments etc. etc.

Obviously IAF championed LCA at early stages, but now they might see that as a limiter to the number of other jets on their wish list such as the Rafael. I am not crediting one force over another, merely stating what seems to be the present situation.

Exactly what I am saying. Anyway, have you seen what is happening to LCA now? Is it being delievered as it was promised? Where is the LCA mk II which was supposed to fly by now? See why IAF is trying to get RAFALE? How is it IAF's fault that HAL is being a complete typical PSU and has not delivered on its timelines?

Well just as the SSBN we are building won't be the biggest or best in the world, our LCA MK I or II would be hardly the best. We'll get better with time at both of them. As for FGFA, lets wait and watch, I only see more inevitable delays in the future. Moreover is that as indigenous as our SSBN or AC?

Our IP of the FGFA will be 50% or similiar to that of our Brahmos. Thats quite good. Even so, would you rather have a 50% indigenous world's best weapon with you or a 100% indigenous world class dud with you to fight your enemy?

Again, its not a matter of who's more patriotic, its that there is an urgent need for more indigenous production and all forces have to balance their immediate needs with long term self-reliance. My initial point was to drive that home in the context of Russia selling advanced fighter jets to the Pakis, thus, the direct reference to IAF.

Yes, I agree. But the indigenous industry must be in a position to support it first yes? Thats why I think IAF is being unfairly blamed on imported weapons.

 

[Nicky G]

@Nicky G , Russia will continue to play major role in Indian defence procurement. Pakistan's appetite for armaments is huge as long as they are getting it for free or by "soft" loans. Russia is neither USSR nor PRC. They don't have deep enough pockets.

A single submarine tender is worth more than the entire Pak defence procurement for a decade.

How many Su-35 the morons at IDRW and Sputnik think Pak can buy and maintain? They don't have enough money to buy J-10, something they tried to do since Mushy was president.

Almost every single Pakistani and most Indians don't realize the dire situation of Pakistan's defence spending. Pak is maintaining the force ratio 1:1.5 in most sectors at 1/6th the budget of India. They do it by spending money on outdated or used or inferior products in smaller numbers and make a big deal out of it.

Russia offered Pak Mi-28NE same as India. They inturn selected Mi-35 which India is retiring and even then they ordered a measly 4 units.

Again, Russia is offering doesn't mean Pak is buying. Pak has also been offered Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen.

Yes, I agree on the most of the points you raised and I do understand Pak's financial woes; however, there are two factors. Is China likely to offer loans to Pak for such a purchase? Very unlikely but possible. Though, I definitely see a Chinese hand here.

The other more insidious is that Russia is getting too desperate to cling on to the one economic power that it sees it can sustain it for the near future. China will use them and Pak for their purposes of undermining India any way they can. This would not be a bad way to go about it. The Chinese can always structure the deal that they end up with a profit in the long run.

I hope its little more than Russian pressure tactics, though, lets wait and watch; as I said, we are still very dependent on them to move away entirely.

I am not calling them traitors. I am just pointing out how ridiculous some pseudo nationalists sound here. there was a moron , who was saying that Army does not deserve the OROP because they dont support indigenous weapons. This was even more amusing when that said moron is living in USA working for Americans. What do you think about that?

Exactly what I am saying. Anyway, have you seen what is happening to LCA now? Is it being delievered as it was promised? Where is the LCA mk II which was supposed to fly by now? See why IAF is trying to get RAFALE? How is it IAF's fault that HAL is being a complete typical PSU and has not delivered on its timelines?

Our IP of the FGFA will be 50% or similiar to that of our Brahmos. Thats quite good. Even so, would you rather have a 50% indigenous world's best weapon with you or a 100% indigenous world class dud with you to fight your enemy?

Yes, I agree. But the indigenous industry must be in a position to support it first yes? Thats why I think IAF is being unfairly blamed on imported weapons.

Well people get carried away with limited info they have. Best to ignore people who are clear hypocrites.

LCA is a long, sad tale and as I said, all forces need to balance their needs with help push more indigenous production. I don't blame the IAF, I just ask them and other forces to do more.

You are not calling our SSBN duds are you? Yes, 50% for Brahmos and FGFA is good, but considering we never built anything before LCA, its not that bad either.

At the end of the day, I feel we need to come up with a better, more coherent mechanism that minimizes such delays in the future. Perhaps, the armed forces should play a more active part during development and certainly we need more privatization. We can't rely on PSU for such critical needs.

 

[Mad Indian]

Yes, I agree on the most of the points you raised and I do understand Pak's financial woes; however, there are two factors. Is China likely to offer loans to Pak for such a purchase? Very unlikely but possible. Though, I definitely see a Chinese hand here.

The other more insidious is that Russia is getting too desperate to cling on to the one economic power that it sees it can sustain it for the near future. China will use them and Pak for their purposes of undermining India any way they can. This would not be a bad way to go about it. The Chinese can always structure the deal that they end up with a profit in the long run.

I hope its little more than Russian pressure tactics, though, lets wait and watch; as I said, we are still very dependent on them to move away entirely.

Even if we move away entirely, what options do we have?

Almost all of Paki weapons is of US origin. That dint stop us from buying weapons from US or move forward with US?

 

[FRYCRY]

Recently ajit doval visited Israel, something is cooking up

 

[Nicky G]

Even if we move away entirely, what options do we have?

Almost all of Paki weapons is of US origin. That dint stop us from buying weapons from US or move forward with US?

Currently, limited options, particularly as I don't see anyone else leasing us nuke subs that we need not only for deployment but improving our future designs. We are already diversifying in virtually everything else, even AC.

US-India relationship has been much different than the Soviet-India or even Russian-Indian one due to the cold war; naturally, we are more dependent on the Russians than the Americans.

 

[Mad Indian]

You are not calling our SSBN duds are you? Yes, 50% for Brahmos and FGFA is good, but considering we never built anything before LCA, its not that bad either.

I am not calling the SSBN as duds. I am just pointing out the difference in the standards of the indigenous equipments available to IN and IAF. Our SSBN is not the best in the world and just like that LCA is not the best in the world. And just as how IN supports SSBN, IAF supports LCA. So What I am saying is that both branches are at the same level of indigenisation only. We just see the part where IN builds ACs and think that since ACs are so big and expensive and it is indigenous, we assume IN is being more indigenous than IAF. This is wrong. TBH, Even our AC are not 100% indigenous. LCA is a good project and a learning opportunity, no doubt about that. But it cant be used as a bench mark to see how much IAF supports indigenisation.

At the end of the day, I feel we need to come up with a better, more coherent mechanism that minimizes such delays in the future. Perhaps, the armed forces should play a more active part during development and certainly we need more privatization. We can't rely on PSU for such critical needs.

Funnily enough, this suggestion that armed forces supervise the HAL and DRDO is actively resisted by both! This should tell you about how fucked up our indigenous PSU defence industry is!

But I agree 100%

 

[blueblood]

@Nicky G , I think you missed the most important point. Maybe I didn't explain it properly.

A couple of billion dollars worth of military aid in the 1950-60s built their entire military. Even twice or thrice the amount today can barely buy them a squadron.

Even the not so special J-10 will cost them upwards of $40 million per unit, not counting the setup or training or armament costs. On top of that, neither China nor Russia provided them with military aid and even if they could, they cannot sustain a large military like Pakistan's on their own.

Pakistan armed forces are a self licking ice-cream cone, the sooner people learn that the better. Problem is that the cone is melting under the heat of economic realities.

So it doesn't matter what kind of loans China and Russia can offer them, it is still a loan, you have to pay it back and you don't have the money.


http://articles.economictimes.india...79_1_cash-strapped-pakistan-imf-foreign-loans

On average, the country received close to $5 billion in fresh loans every year and returned about $2.5 billion to its international creditors, adding the remaining amount to its debt stock.

 

[Nicky G]

I am not calling the SSBN as duds. I am just pointing out the difference in the standards of the indigenous equipments available to IN and IAF. Our SSBN is not the best in the world and just like that LCA is not the best in the world. And just as how IN supports SSBN, IAF supports LCA. So What I am saying is that both branches are at the same level of indigenisation only. We just see the part where IN builds ACs and think that since ACs are so big and expensive and it is indigenous, we assume IN is being more indigenous than IAF. This is wrong. TBH, Even our AC are not 100% indigenous. LCA is a good project and a learning opportunity, no doubt about that. But it cant be used as a bench mark to see how much IAF supports indigenisation.

Funnily enough, this suggestion that armed forces supervise the HAL and DRDO is actively resisted by both! This should tell you about how fucked up our indigenous PSU defence industry is!

But I agree 100%

Yup, as I stated, perception does play a role, one SSBN or AC compared to few jets. I am sure we can do an objective analysis of the expenditure on imports by the three branches; however that is not fair as there are many other factors to consider and any analysis would need to factor those it, if possible.

Our AC are not 100% indigenous, hardly anything ever is, but close to it though. LCA might not be an adequate benchmark to judge support for indigenous material for the IAF, but what else is there? This is why I said, by the very nature and circumstances, the navy has had more it can claim as indigenous.

PSU are always going to be fucked up, particular from India's socialist hangover; however, we need to move forward or we'll never be self-reliant and others will always have leverage over us.

@Nicky G , I think you missed the most important point. Maybe I didn't explain it properly.

A couple of billion dollars worth of military aid in the 1950-60s built their entire military. Even twice or thrice the amount today can barely buy them a squadron.

Even the not so special J-10 will cost them upwards of $40 million per unit, not counting the setup or training or armament costs. On top of that, neither China nor Russia provided them with military aid and even if they could, they cannot sustain a large military like Pakistan's on their own.

Pakistan armed forces are a self licking ice-cream cone, the sooner people learn that the better. Problem is that the cone is melting under the heat of economic realities.

So it doesn't matter what kind of loans China and Russia can offer them, it is still a loan, you have to pay it back and you don't have the money.


http://articles.economictimes.india...79_1_cash-strapped-pakistan-imf-foreign-loans

On average, the country received close to $5 billion in fresh loans every year and returned about $2.5 billion to its international creditors, adding the remaining amount to its debt stock.

I understand that their position is not sustainable in the conventional sense; however, let me throw out a wild thought here, there have been other countries that could not pay back the lenders, what's happened to them?

Soon, Pak could well start selling off its land and associated assets, mineral or strategic. How long before entire PoK is under Chinese control? Gilgit is probably just the start.

You and I realize Pak's dire situation; their top people do too and they will do anything to keep their party going no matter the expense to the people, who are just fodder to them.

 

[blueblood]

I understand that their position is not sustainable in the conventional sense; however, let me throw out a wild thought here, there have been other countries that could not pay back the lenders, what's happened to them?

In that case, they end up becoming somebody's bitch and nobody likes to be a bitch, not even Pakistanis.

Soon, Pak could well start selling off its land and associated assets, mineral or strategic. How long before entire PoK is under Chinese control? Gilgit is probably just the start.

Then I would count it as a huge win. As for China in POK, they are already there so that is nothing new. Silver lining is that Pakis were/are the most ungrateful turds found on this planet. If history has taught us something is that Pakis love to bite the hand that feeds them. Starting right from Brits then US and now Saudi & UAE. Pretty soon China's turn will come.

Even before the start of ultra mega super duper CPEC the voices of dissidence are rising at alarming speed. Grab your bucket of popcorn and wait for it to go BOOM.

You and I realize Pak's dire situation; their top people do too and they will do anything to keep their party going no matter the expense to the people, who are just fodder to them.

I know and it worked well for them in East Pakistan.

 

[Nicky G]

In that case, they end up becoming somebody's bitch and nobody likes to be a bitch, not even Pakistanis.

Then I would count it as a huge win. As for China in POK, they are already there so that is nothing new. Silver lining is that Pakis were/are the most ungrateful turds found on this planet. If history has taught us something is that Pakis love to bite the hand that feeds them. Starting right from Brits then US and now Saudi & UAE. Pretty soon China's turn will come.

Even before the start of ultra mega super duper CPEC the voices of dissidence are rising at alarming speed. Grab your bucket of popcorn and wait for it to go BOOM.

I know and it worked well for them in East Pakistan.

I'd argue they have always been someone'e bitch. One of the first things they did after independence was run off to Washington to ask aid in return for doing US dirty work. We all know about Afghanistan. Recently, we have seen many examples of them being China's bitch, resisting SA's call for troops just one of them.

Its unreal for a country to gift or lease part of a disputed territory. That's how freaking crazy they are.

I agree that you can see China taking over more of PoK as a win for India from many angles, one straightforward being, how it weakens any claim Pak had on Kashmir to begin with. However, with China you have a different set of problems.

True, Pakis will always bite the hand that feeds them and China too will learn the hard way, we need to be there to capitalize.

As for CPEC, I have a special treat lined up already for when it goes BOOM as you put it. I hope we are working in the shadows to make the boom just a tad louder.

Exactly, we were able to capitalize in '71, though we should have done more when we held 90k PoW. We will get more chances and this time, we need to go for the kill.

My point was not that this one deal or others will alter the equation, the point was simply that the Pakis are increasingly desperate. They tend to get that way a few times every couple of decade or so.

The real concern here is Russia and China, the Pakis are just a tool they use.

 

[Rowdy]

Those bitching about russia keep following things in Mind:
a) Had Pak the economic wherewithal, they would buy any one of the MMRCA contestants..... whoever lost to India would be selling it's jets to Pak. Don't think for a moment that Hindu hater Britain would not sell Eurofighter to Pak....
b) Had India and Indians worked harder we could have done better. I mean in 2015 we need to teach people not to litter is pathetic. So much of energy goes to solving trivial problems.
c) Russia is ultimately following it's interest. No need to blame it.

 

[Mad Indian]

Russia is ultimately following it's interest. No need to blame it.

While this is true, certain Russophile's here make it sound as if India owes something to Russia completely ignoring Indian interests. So threads like these should help us counter their stupidity

 

[Blackwater]

Golden question who is paying ??[emoji13][emoji13][emoji38][emoji38][emoji16][emoji16]

 

[Neo]

Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM

Source: Sputnik

Expansion of military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have any negative effect on relations between Moscow and New Delhi, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday.

Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.

"I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides," Ryabkov told journalists.

Pakistan is Russia's closest partner, Ryabkov said, adding that the two countries’ ties are evolving not only militarily but in other sectors, including energy.

Relations between India and Pakistan have been strained since the end of British rule seven decades ago. They agreed to a ceasefire in 2003 following a number of military conflicts. Both sides have repeatedly accused each other of violating the truce.

http://idrw.org/russia-pakistan-hol...-35-confirms-russian-deputy-foreign-minister/