Pacifism and Morality

[pmaitra]

Good points. So being pacifist has nothing to do with being primitive, because, that would imply many of the Scandinavian countries are primitive as well. I would say, comparatively, Georgia is more primitive and more aggressive, compared to, say, Norway

you forget one thing Scandinavia can play moralistic games and claim pacifism because they have a "sugar daddy" (USA)
that as NATO takes all the risks and military expenditure
in order to receive such protection they have to tow American political line and participate in American wars
in a manner that is unacceptable to India or Israel we forge our own destiny with all the risks and rewards associated with it .

Pack Leader, there is a joke. USA is the sugar daddy of many countries, starting from UK to Pakistan. There is one country that the US is willing to go to war for, and that is, Israel, and I support it, because I think Israel needs to be protected from its neighbours. That is a different issue.

Now coming to the Lazika, what do you think it offers in case of war with Russia, the only country it is likely to have conflicts with? Also, how good will it be in the Caucasian Mountains, because any land warfare will be across these mountains? It might help in suppressing a popular uprising in places like Adjaria. I don't want to discourage Georgian entrepreneurship, but the reasons cited by many simply doesn't sound pragmatic.

 

[pack leader]

Pack Leader, there is a joke. USA is the sugar daddy of many countries, starting from UK to Pakistan. There is one country that the US is willing to go to war for, and that is, Israel, and I support it, because I think Israel needs to be protected from its neighbours. That is a different issue.

Now coming to the Lazika, what do you think it offers in case of war with Russia, the only country it is likely to have conflicts with? Also, how good will it be in the Caucasian Mountains, because any land warfare will be across these mountains? It might help in suppressing a popular uprising in places like Adjaria. I don't want to discourage Georgian entrepreneurship, but the reasons cited by many simply doesn't sound pragmatic.

don't be naive America needs us to keep the Arabs in check and not to destroy the Saudi oil fields
we have our own nuclear deterrent our own space program
and just like France we have an independent foreign policy
America has ally's and slaves France Britannia Germany and Israel are self sufficient ally's
the rest of Europe is made up of slaves

a single American drop off blood was not shred to protect Israel

 

[militarysta]

WTF is this all?
Can't we are talking about military?
This all is pointless.

They are to big difrences between two totally different cultures to understood both sides. It's stupid to say: India, or Asian, or Russian culture is better,
Guys from India shoud remember that Poland is not ex soviet colony, but part of UE and western countres community,
and You Damian shoud remember that "we" western civilisation dominate the world in XIX century not becouse our ideas, philosophy, lifestyle, religion was better, but only becouse our military technique and ability to mass kiling other nations was far better then ever single example in whole world history.

Im writing this not as "militarysta" here, but as guy who teaches students on National Security on one of the polish
university.
I have hope that people here appreciate that I'm trying be extremly polite, becouse when I was reading this tread it's ,make me sick.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

WTF is this all?
Can't we are talking about military?
This all is pointless.

They are to big difrences between two totally different cultures to understood both sides. It's stupid to say: India, or Asian, or Russian culture is better,
Guys from India shoud remember that Poland is not ex soviet colony, but part of UE and western countres community,
and You Damian shoud remember that "we" western civilisation dominate the world in XIX century not becouse our ideas, philosophy, lifestyle, religion was better, but only becouse our military technique and ability to mass kiling other nations was far better then ever single example in whole world history.

Im writing this not as "militarysta" here, but as guy who teaches students on National Security on one of the polish
university.
I have hope that people here appreciate that I'm trying be extremly polite, becouse when I was reading this tread it's ,make me sick.

Most people in Poland do not have R1b1 gene group like Western Europeans, Polish and Russians have R1a1 like Indians.

More over you cant get into the western band wagon of glory simply because you are in europe. It was only the Brits, French and Spanish which where dominant.

Anyway that armored carrier is worthless, they cant mass produce it.

 

[militarysta]

Most people in Poland do not have R1b1 gene group like Western Europeans, Polish and Russians have R1a1 like Indians.

More over you cant get into the western band wagon of glory simply because you are in europe. It was only the Brits, French and Spanish which where dominant.
.

Well I don't make reseerch study about gene group in Poland, but about:
a) religion
b) cluture
c) history
You are wrong. In tehory Poland is smth between west and est -and it's one big tragedy of my country - always between. Of course we can distinguish Central Europe area becouse in religion, history, and politik this part is conetced whit western europe, but anthropologically and culturally (not as religon but as language and folk tradition) is strongly conected whit estern Europe.
But now Poland is whit both hands in western europe

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Small countries that do not even manufacturing cars are trying to make Armored war machines! This sends out some what an negative war culture in the european christian mindset. Dont mean to sound raceist but just an observation, sorry if it sounds bad. Europea and West in general has saddled itself with huge defense industries that may create an viscous cycle of creating wars for profiting and selling arms to both sides as in the case of India and Pakistan.

I didnt think this thread would go anywhere beyond one comment, thats why i posted a comment like that but in a way it was my comment that helped move the thread at the same time derail it. So its a double edged sword!

Didnt expect this will happen, i post a lot so such stuff is bound to happen, i am not perfect.

 

[civfanatic]

I think the Europeans have a history, a background and a culture which till today reains tribal to the core : of fiercely being isolationist, independent, racist and iconists rather than being broad minded, inclusive and tolerant. They have never been co-existentialist and in their very short history but war mongerers. That they developed a few things due to their fierce feudal competitive activities, graduated them into inhuman capitalism and captured globe by inhuman war is not a great achivement.

They would never believe in Oriental values of preserving peace at all cost.

So let them enjoy manufacturing war machines and be happy in killing each others.

This is absolutely correct. I have said before that the term "European civilization" is, for the most part, an oxymoron.

I greatly admire the Scandinavians for the transformation that they have made in their countries. Until relatively recently, they were among the most barbaric people in the world, but today I would rank them as among the most civilized. Unfortunately, this is a transformation that much of the rest of Europe has yet to make.

 

[KS]

I agree...'showing the other cheek" kind of pacifism is lame.

When faced with violence, be violent. Period. There is no dignity in being beaten.

 

[Damian]

@civfantic

So if You see us as barbaric, then be it, I'am damn proud of being barbaric. Now, come here to Europe or US and call white people barbaric, in the best case they will ignore You, in worse You won't back a live to Your home. Remember, do not call somebody barbaric, because someone might not be in a good mood, and can be stronger than You.

This is how stupidity works, same done Georgia, and got a slap in the face from this "barbaric" Russia.

Unfortunately, this is a transformation that much of the rest of Europe has yet to make.

Why do You think we want to do such transformation? Scandinavians are lame in many aspects (yeah I have part of my family scandinavian), and most young people are do not want to live in current political and economic situation. More and more young people do not want this euro socialism, we want our countries as independent and strong (yet allied with each other and with the US and Canada).

And I definetly will be against destroying our legacy and proud because You wish so. Because thanks to this we gained our status, we were first ones to start global discovery of our world, because of this curiosity, this desire of conquer, to improve ourselfes etc. etc. etc.

These who were living peacfully for too long time, they had just a regress in their development, they just close theirselves in a shell and waited untill more developed, more agressive nation just conquered them.

 

[balai_c]

Indians have a moral concept called "ahimsa". The most widespread translation of this word is non-violence. But the most appropriate translation would be:non-harm. Non-harm means your actions must not cause harm harm to others. For example, ahimsa for a soldier would be to pick up his weapon and defend his countrymen , because they cannot defend themselves. Pacifism would be a a sin for him. That would his dharma. This is also the arguement pushed by Shri Krishna to the pacifist Arjuna from executing his dharma. Morality like pacifism is context sensitive.Depends on the circumstances.

 

[civfanatic]

So if You see us as barbaric, then be it, I'am damn proud of being barbaric. Now, come here to Europe or US and call white people barbaric, in the best case they will ignore You, in worse You won't back a live to Your home. Remember, do not call somebody barbaric, because someone might not be in a good mood, and can be stronger than You.

I'm not stupid enough to start fights which I can't win, I'm not Saakashvilli.

Scandinavians are lame in many aspects

I am sure most people, if given the choice between living in Scandinavia or living in Poland, would chose to live in Scandinavia. There is nothing "lame" about being a humane, well-developed nation. Only an uncivilized person would think it is "lame".

And I definetly will be against destroying our legacy and proud because You wish so. Because thanks to this we gained our status, we were first ones to start global discovery of our world, because of this curiosity, this desire of conquer, to improve ourselfes etc. etc. etc.

Who is this 'we' and that you are talking about? You Poles did not do any of the discovering or conquering, in fact you yourselves were conquered by barbaric Russian tsars and ruled over for centuries. You have no legacy or status so you are jumping on the Western European bandwagon and claiming their legacy and status as your own.

Coming to the point, in the entire history of the world we have never seen as much brutality or barbarism as we have seen perpetuated by Europeans (namely the Western Europeans) in the colonial era. Entire age-old civilizations were uprooted and destroyed. I do not think you understand the extent of the damage that they inflicted on the human race; it is incalculable.

From the colonial era we have learned the great dangers of unchecked greed and supremacist ideologies. But we (the recovering civilizations of the East) have also learned how to play the Europeans' own game. Today you are losing the same game that you started, slowly but surely the West is losing the economic and military dominance it once had. And I will gladly welcome the day that the West is once again sidelined and the East brings stability and equality to the the world, which for the past half-millennium was sorely lacking.

These who were living peacfully for too long time, they had just a regress in their development, they just close theirselves in a shell and waited untill more developed, more agressive nation just conquered them.

This attitude reflects the mentality of barbaric cultures, who believe that war is the only path for humanity. In fact, the Eastern civilizations achieved the most when they were at peace; it was only once they were subdued by the Europeans that their development regressed.

Feel free to look through this article:
List of Indian inventions and discoveries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Damian]

I am sure most people, if given the choice between living in Scandinavia or living in Poland, would chose to live in Scandinavia. There is nothing "lame" about being a humane, well-developed nation. Only an uncivilized person would think it is "lame".

I would preffer to live in strong country, not a weak country with huge social spending that is unnececary.

But yeah, I'am blood thirsty barbarian... You rascist.

Who is this 'we' you are talking about? You Poles did not do any of the discovering or conquering, in fact you yourselves were conquered by barbaric Russian tsars and ruled over for centuries. You have no legacy or status so you are jumping on the Western European bandwagon and claiming their legacy and status as your own.

I think that in India history lessons in school are... probably only about India not about other nations history, because it seems that You do not know history, especially of my country.

Poland in the period between 1610 and 1612 conquered and occupied Moscow. And yes, we were conquered by Russians, and Russians are not barbaric, to the countrary, compared to You primitive rascist they are highly civilized people.

Not to mention that You completely do not understand history of Europe and European countries, we Poles are on the edge between west and east, we have everything from both sides, not only that, we have long and proud history.

But such weak minded, weak educated, primitive reascist like You, are not capable to comprehend this.

Coming to the point, in the entire history of the world we have never seen as much brutality or barbarism as we have seen perpetuated by Europeans (namely the Western Europeans) in the colonial era. Entire age-old civilizations were uprooted and destroyed. I do not think you understand the extent of the damage that they inflicted on the human race; it is incalculable.

So what? It is natural, weak civilizations were just defeated by stronger ones, this is just natural selection for civilization.

From the colonial era we have learned the great dangers of unchecked greed and supremacist ideologies. But we (the recovering civilizations of the East) have also learned how to play the Europeans' own game. Today you are losing the same game that you started, slowly but surely the West is losing the economic and military dominance it once had. And I will gladly welcome the day that the West is once again sidelined and the East brings stability and equality to the the world, which for the past half-millennium was sorely lacking.

Of course that these days there is shift in power, but even if we loose this fight, do not forget, that Your prosperity will never last for eternity.

And this part about prosperity and equality, when I read such bollocks... damn with rascists like You we will have another genocide, what Hitler done will be just some childern playground, compared to silent haters like You.

This attitude reflects the mentality of barbaric cultures, who believe that war is the only path for humanity. In fact, the Eastern civilizations achieved the most when they were at peace; it was only once they were subdued by the Europeans that their development regressed.

Wow, I'am so evil barbarian, and You know what, it's ok, because contrary to You, for this insult I would just break Your neck... they call us rascists, and in the same time they are not different than Hitler's SS. I think You would be probably happy to serve with SS, aren't You?

Feel free to look through this article:
List of Indian inventions and discoveries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And? What is this, a proove to what point? Ahhh, I know, that You are superior, we are inferior... it seems that Hitler said the same, oh man, You would be his best friend.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Godwin's Law strikes again.

 

[Damian]

Godwin's Law strikes again.

Nope, because my arguments are proved by civfantic himself.

For example do I called here on forum, any nation inferior, barbaric etc? Did any European or American or on general white man done that?

No, on the other side, civfantic and similiar call us barbarians, when as history proves in many things Indians for example, were no better than us, for example cult of Kali or sati, for me sati is barbaric, or many other things, however I do not insult Indians calling them barbarians.

It is even funny, when someone says something with scepticism or criticism towards India then he will be eaten on this forum, but on the other hand rascism towards other cultures, nations, in fact pure hate to them seems to be tolerated here.

So what is this? These double standards? Seems that some things are common between different cultures, and it's only prooves that Indians are same people as we are, and are not better in anything, only on this forum, there is bunch of frustrated .... insulting other cultures only because they are not capable to comprehend their history, culture, mentality... and they pretend to be civilized... a bad joke it is.

 

[civfanatic]

I would preffer to live in strong country, not a weak country with huge social spending that is unnececary.

What is the point of being a "strong" country if the people are not satisfied with their standard of living? A country is made up of its people.

And what is "unnecessary" social spending? Education is unnecessary? How about health care? Assistance for impoverished families? Maybe in your own "civilized" world.

The welfare of the people is always supreme. Military spending should be for the defence of the nation only; India has one of the largest military budgets in the world, but it is not our choice whether or not to spend this amount, since we live in a dangerous neighborhood. But spending large amounts on the military when there is no threat is to do a great disservice to the people.

I think that in India history lessons in school are... probably only about India not about other nations history, because it seems that You do not know history, especially of my country.

Poland in the period between 1610 and 1612 conquered and occupied Moscow. And yes, we were conquered by Russians, and Russians are not barbaric, to the countrary, compared to You primitive rascist they are highly civilized people.

Not to mention that You completely do not understand history of Europe and European countries, we Poles are on the edge between west and east, we have everything from both sides, not only that, we have long and proud history.

I am quite aware of your history. During the Time of Troubles in Russia you occupied Moscow for a brief period; that is not the same as conquering a nation. During the entire existence of the Kingdom of Poland and the Polish-Lithuanian Union you did not achieve anything similar to what the Western Europeans achieved during the same time, which is again why you are so eager to claim Western European achievements as your own.

Your "long and proud history" is a joke, until the tenth century when Poles adopted Christianity they did not even have a written language or organized government. They were just barbaric tribes living in the forests of Eastern Europe.

So what? It is natural, weak civilizations were just defeated by stronger ones, this is just natural selection for civilization.

Interesting, now you are supporting genocide against "weaker" peoples. Is this also a part of the glorious "European civilization"?

I think you should tell this to the Holocaust survivors. Tell them that Poland was too weak to protect them during WWII, and so they deserved to be eliminated from the Earth. I am sure they will appreciate your "civilized" outlook, actually Hitler used a similar argument himself to justify his military conquests.

Of course that these days there is shift in power, but even if we loose this fight, do not forget, that Your prosperity will never last for eternity.

Of course not. In the East the concept of cycles is very important. We do not believe in linear evolution but cyclical progression; you can see this in the ancient Hindu philosophy and cosmology, where the duration of the universe is said to be divided into four yugas (cycles), with the first Yuga seeing Supreme Virtue and each subsequent Yuga a progressive deterioration of humanity, until the cycle resets and returns to the first Yuga.

And? What is this, a proove to what point? Ahhh, I know, that You are superior, we are inferior... it seems that Hitler said the same, oh man, You would be his best friend.

This is to prove your assertion that "those who were living peacefully regressed in their development" to be false, since India's greatest achievements in science and culture took place when it was living peacefully.

I do not believe that Indians are racially superior to any other people (unlike many Europeans of the past and present).

 

[pmaitra]

Poland in the period between 1610 and 1612 conquered and occupied Moscow. And yes, we were conquered by Russians, and Russians are not barbaric, to the countrary, compared to You primitive rascist they are highly civilized people.

Yeah, but a small corrigendum. It wasn't the Poles, but the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The death of Ivan's sons marked the end of the ancient Rurik Dynasty in 1598, and in combination with the famine of 1601–03[54] led to the civil war, the rule of pretenders and foreign intervention during the Time of Troubles in the early 17th century.[55] Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth occupied parts of Russia, including Moscow. In 1612 the Poles were forced to retreat by the Russian volunteer corps, led by two national heroes, merchant Kuzma Minin and Prince Dmitry Pozharsky. The Romanov Dynasty acceded the throne in 1613 by the decision of Zemsky Sobor, and the country started its gradual recovery from the crisis.

Source: Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth conquered Moscow for 2 years. The Russian Empire and thereafter the Soviet Union conquered Lithuania and Poland for how many years?

Don't bother answering, we all know the answer, because we, at least I, was taught Russian and Soviet History. Sorry, our textbooks didn't quite care about littoral states like Lithuania and Polska.

Not to mention that You completely do not understand history of Europe and European countries, we Poles are on the edge between west and east, we have everything from both sides, not only that, we have long and proud history.

But such weak minded, weak educated, primitive reascist like You, are not capable to comprehend this.

Do we see Poland as the cry baby of Europe? Yes. Are we racists? No. I, and I am sure even CivFanatic, are admirers of the Russians. Both the Poles and the western Russians belong to the Slavic Race. So, no, we are not racists.

So what? It is natural, weak civilizations were just defeated by stronger ones, this is just natural selection for civilization.

Thus spake Damian, and quite correctly so. So now we know why Polska was once a region in Prussia, Russia, Germany, USSR led Warsaw Pact and now is a vassal of the US, pleading them to setup missile bases there.

Of course that these days there is shift in power, but even if we loose this fight, do not forget, that Your prosperity will never last for eternity.

And this part about prosperity and equality, when I read such bollocks... damn with rascists like You we will have another genocide, what Hitler done will be just some childern playground, compared to silent haters like You.

I don't think Hitler was racist. Of those 6 million Jews and 26 million Soviets killed, all of then were whites anyway. Hitler could have sent those 70,000 British PoWs of Indian origin to the gas chambers if he so wished. He didn't. Instead, he gave these Indians rifles, bullets, food, uniform, shelter, and more importantly, a promise that they will only be used against the British. Hitler also funded the Azad Hind or Freies Indien government in exile in Berlin. Yes, that is what he did for the brown Indians. Oh, should I start off on his alliance with the yellow Japanese?

Wow, I'am so evil barbarian, and You know what, it's ok, because contrary to You, for this insult I would just break Your neck... they call us rascists, and in the same time they are not different than Hitler's SS. I think You would be probably happy to serve with SS, aren't You?

I was going to vehemently disagree with CivFanatic when he called you a barbarian, but since you said that you were going to break his neck, I definitely think you are a barbarian. See highlighted quote above.

And? What is this, a proove to what point? Ahhh, I know, that You are superior, we are inferior... it seems that Hitler said the same, oh man, You would be his best friend.

Poland does not come anywhere close to India. We don't need to hang onto a Warsaw Pact or some North Atlantic Treaty Organisation for our survival. How far is the Atlantic from Poland? I would understand if you were part of an organisation named after the Vistula, rather than the Atlantic. You fear your fellow Slavic brothers in Russia so much? This is hysteria bud! Relax, and enjoy DFI.

-xoxo-

 

[Damian]

Yeah, but a small corrigendum. It wasn't the Poles, but the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Indeed, I should use an official name of state that was existing back then.

So the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth conquered Moscow for 2 years. The Russian Empire and thereafter the Soviet Union conquered Lithuania and Poland for how many years?

Don't bother answering, we all know the answer, because we, at least I, was taught Russian and Soviet History. Sorry, our textbooks didn't quite care about littoral states like Lithuanian and Polska.

And hey, 2 years for a much smaller and in theory weaker country. And of course, it was obvious that with nobel democracy (not strong king) and internal problems we were not able to defend ourselfes for a long time back then, especially attacked from all sides in long period of time, try to do this again with India, being attacked by Pakistan and PRC, how long India would hold?

Do we see Poland as the cry baby of Europe? Yes. Are we racists? No. I, and I am sure even CivFanatic, are admirers of the Russians. Both the Poles and the western Russians belong to the Slavic Race. So, no, we are not racists.

Calling some one barbarian is rascism. Are we cry baby? Of course, because many of our politicians are complete morons, unfortunetly the real elites of nation after WWII and reign of Soviets are allmost non existing.

Thus spake Damian, and quite correctly so. So now we know why Polska was once a region in Prussia, Russia, Germany, USSR led Warsaw Pact and now is a vassal of the US, pleading them to setup missile bases there.

Of course, do I say we were not weak? I'am not hyprocite. We were weak, because of stupidity of nobles, because of weakness of king, because of many internal problems and countless wars. We were weak, thus stronger countries all around us used situation, and I do not blame them, my country done the same in the past.

But with US You are wrong, there is a difference. Then we had no choice, we can't choose who will be our protector, our "Big Brother", now we can choose, and this is the best choice we have, Russia is obvious no go at that time for obvious reasons (well maybe not obvious for You), EU is a weak, political, economical and military dwarf governed by bunch of socialist idiots, what we have left? Only US that is still military superpower, and will be for a long period of time. And US is a very different superpower than many previous ones or these emerging right now.

I don't thing Hitler was racist. Of those 6 million Jews and 26 million Soviets killed, all of then were whites anyway. Hitler could have sent those 70,000 British PoWs of Indian origin to the gas chambers if he so wished. He didn't. Instead, he gave these Indians rifles, bullets, food, uniform, shelter, and more importantly, a promise that they will only be used against the British. Hitler also funded the Azad Hind or Freies Indien government in exile in Berlin. Yes, that is what he did for the brown Indians. Oh, should I start off on his alliance with the yellow Japanese?

Hitler was a rascist because Jews are not Europeans, more Slavs were also not seen by Nazis as humans, but rather as a cheap workforce and nothing else. But it seems that You admire Hitler, do You? Congrats, You just admitted that You are rascist.

I was going to vehemently disagree with CivFanatic when he called you a barbarian, but since you said that you were going to break his neck, I definitely think you are a barbarian. See highlighted quote above.

So when I'am angry because someone insults me, my family, my nation, other europeans, I'am a barbarian, but when him or You wish to see fall of Pakistan, call Pakistanis a fallen nation and insult them, only because they are your enemys, then you are civilized? Are You thinking that other nations are stupid? Are You think that I will respect someone to call Hitler not a rascist and even admire him because he gave Indian born British POW's weapons, food etc. and give them opportunity to fight British? Are You ----ing kiddin me?

Who the ---- are You to judge others when You are not better? Hypocrites.

Poland does not come anywhere close to India. We don't need to hang onto a Warsaw Pact or some North Atlantic Treaty Organisation for our survival. How far is the Atlantic from Poland? I would understand if you were part of an organisation named after the Vistula, rather than the Atlantic. You fear your fellow Slavic brothers in Russia so much? This is hysteria bud! Relax, and enjoy DFI.

I think You will never understand. We are not affraid Russians, we are not affraid our slavic brothers, but we are also not Russians in ethinc sense, our culture, religion, many things that define us, are closer to the west than east. And yes, we need NATO, we are not strong enough yet to be self dependant, and we at least see our weakness. You think that India can handle itself against PRC? No my friend, and PRC is not expanding towards India only because India have nukes, same is with Pakistan, they do not start another war because it is pointless at this time. But no, India is not strong yet, if some superpower would seen a profit in attacking India they would allready done that, this is reality. Only some lunatics and pseudo patriots are not capable to see the real situation, that besides USA, Russian Federation and PRC, the rest of the world are only pawns, nothing more, and You know what, the funniest thing is that these 3 superpowers, sees a common threat, they will join their efforts to preserve their domination. So do not pretend that You are in some great position over the other smaller countries.

 

[pmaitra]

Indeed, I should use an official name of state that was existing back then.



And hey, 2 years for a much smaller and in theory weaker country. And of course, it was obvious that with nobel democracy (not strong king) and internal problems we were not able to defend ourselfes for a long time back then, especially attacked from all sides in long period of time, try to do this again with India, being attacked by Pakistan and PRC, how long India would hold?

Polska and Lithuania joining hands to invade Russia in the 1600s, that too at a time when Russia wasn't a huge continent like country like it is today, rather a much smaller principality, under constant threats from the Kazan Tatars and the remnants of the Golden Horde? You guys invaded Russia and won 2 years of control of Moscow by taking advantage of Russia's weakness, and sure, due credits to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Pakistan and PRC joining hands to invade India, well, that is not going to happen anytime soon. Exporting terrorism? Yes, that will continue.

Calling some one barbarian is rascism. Are we cry baby? Of course, because many of our politicians are complete morons, unfortunetly the real elites of nation after WWII and reign of Soviets are allmost non existing.

I did not call all the Poles barbarians, but yes, if you are going to threaten someone to break his neck, I am not going to call you Mahatma Gandhi, am I?

Of course, do I say we were not weak? I'am not hyprocite. We were weak, because of stupidity of nobles, because of weakness of king, because of many internal problems and countless wars. We were weak, thus stronger countries all around us used situation, and I do not blame them, my country done the same in the past.

In the past? Heck, are you not doing it even now?

I understand your PoV when you say Russia must respect Poland's sovereignty. Going by the same logic, what exactly were Polish soldiers doing in Iraq? I will tell you, they were being lackeys of Uncle Sam. I am sure the Iraqis did not send a formal invitation to the Poles. At least, the Afghan government formally invited the Soviets eleven times before the start of the Soviet-Mujahideen War.

But with US You are wrong, there is a difference. Then we had no choice, we can't choose who will be our protector, our "Big Brother", now we can choose, and this is the best choice we have, Russia is obvious no go at that time for obvious reasons (well maybe not obvious for You), EU is a weak, political, economical and military dwarf governed by bunch of socialist idiots, what we have left? Only US that is still military superpower, and will be for a long period of time. And US is a very different superpower than many previous ones or these emerging right now.

I think you do have a choice. You can still be neutral, just like Finland, and live in peace with Russia. Heck, you don't even share a border with Russia, save the tiny enclave called Kaliningrad.

Hitler was a rascist because Jews are not Europeans, more Slavs were also not seen by Nazis as humans, but rather as a cheap workforce and nothing else. But it seems that You admire Hitler, do You? Congrats, You just admitted that You are rascist.

I am Indian. My ancestors have been victims of racism in the hands of the British. Hitler was willing to help us fight the British. I will always be thankful to him for that. I don't support the genocide of the Jews. It was a crime, but during WW2, we had our own bread to butter.

Also, the Indian government in exile made it very clear that the Indians shall fight only against the British, but they may not be used against the French, Russians or even the Jews. Just so that you know.

Of all your accusations of us being racists, well, whatever makes you happy. I could only toss those accusations into the trash bin.

So when I'am angry because someone insults me, my family, my nation, other europeans, I'am a barbarian, but when him or You wish to see fall of Pakistan, call Pakistanis a fallen nation and insult them, only because they are your enemys, then you are civilized? Are You thinking that other nations are stupid? Are You think that I will respect someone to call Hitler not a rascist and even admire him because he gave Indian born British POW's weapons, food etc. and give them opportunity to fight British? Are You ----ing kiddin me?

Who the ---- are You to judge others when You are not better? Hypocrites.

I think smaller and weaker nations tend to be more aggressive in their tone. I hear a lot of insult from the Pakistanis and also from some Brits. Strange though, we have been treated much better by countries that are many times stronger, like the USSR and now the USA. So I will not take offence, even if you use the f-word, which I think you intended to use.

I think You will never understand. We are not affraid Russians, we are not affraid our slavic brothers, but we are also not Russians in ethinc sense, our culture, religion, many things that define us, are closer to the west than east.

You are still Slavic. Some of you may be Anglo-Saxon wannabes, but you are still Slavic, and much closer to Russia than Germany or France.

And yes, we need NATO, we are not strong enough yet to be self dependant, and we at least see our weakness.

I don't think the Russians are a threat to Poland. Ever since this missile-shield issue started, I think that Poland has been unnecessarily needling Russia. Live peacefully as neighbours. Don't try to be another Saakashvili. Russia has a lot of patience, but will not tolerate another 26 million dead and trust me, they are dead serious about that.

You think that India can handle itself against PRC? No my friend, and PRC is not expanding towards India only because India have nukes, same is with Pakistan, they do not start another war because it is pointless at this time. But no, India is not strong yet, if some superpower would seen a profit in attacking India they would already done that, this is reality.

If the US can think twice before invading North Korea, I think PRC will think thrice before invading India. That is reality.

Only some lunatics and pseudo patriots are not capable to see the real situation, that besides USA, Russian Federation and PRC, the rest of the world are only pawns, nothing more, and You know what, the funniest thing is that these 3 superpowers, sees a common threat, they will join their efforts to preserve their domination. So do not pretend that You are in some great position over the other smaller countries.

There is a difference. India will neither be an ally of Russia, nor that of the US. Poland, however, wants to cocoon itself safely into a camp, be it the Warsaw Pact or NATO. You know, you can be a small country, neutral and still not get into a fight. There are many examples in Europe.

 

[Damian]

I did not call all the Poles barbarians, but yes, if you are going to threaten someone to break his neck, I am not going to call you Mahatma Gandhi, am I?

I do not want to be called Mahatma Gandhi, however it is funny, i do not have right to react when someone insult me, my nation, my culture, civilization, but when I say that for such insults I would just show that person what I think about her, then I'am barbarian... I bet that You and many more of Indians would kill me if I would start to insult their nation, culture, civilization, of course I would not do that because contrary to some rascists I respect other cultures and the differences.

I understand your PoV when you say Russia must respect Poland's sovereignty. Going by the same logic, what exactly were Polish soldiers doing in Iraq? I will tell you, they were being lackeys of Uncle Sam. I am sure the Iraqis did not send a formal invitation to the Poles. At least, the Afghan government formally invited the Soviets eleven times before the start of the Soviet-Mujahideen War.

In Iraq we were helping in stabilization efforts, and of course we had hopes for making deals (mostly arms sales) with new Iraqi goverment, unfortunetly Iraq made very little contracts with us... but this is mainly fail of our goverment.

I think you do have a choice. You can still be neutral, just like Finland, and live in peace with Russia. Heck, you don't even share a border with Russia, save the tiny enclave called Kaliningrad.

We can't be neutral, neither we want to be neutral. We see this that way, we can be part of NATO, we can have good relations with Russian Federation, the problem is rather in some politicians view on both sides.

I am Indian. My ancestors have been victims of racism in the hands of the British. Hitler was willing to help us fight the British. I will always be thankful to him for that. I don't support the genocide of the Jews. It was a crime, but during WW2, we had our own bread to butter.

Also, the Indian government in exile made it very clear that the Indians shall fight only against the British, but they may not be used against the French, Russians or even the Jews. Just so that you know.

Of all your accusations of us being racists, well, whatever makes you happy. I could only toss those accusations into the trash bin.

Only because someone helped You fight UK, doesen't mean he deserves respect, this is short sighting and ignorant approach.

You are still Slavic. Some of you may be Anglo-Saxon wannabes, but you are still Slavic, and much closer to Russia than Germany or France.

On genetic level we are closer to Russians, on cultural level we are closer to western europe.

I don't think the Russians are a threat to Poland. Ever since this missile-shield issue started, I think that Poland has been unnecessarily needling Russia. Live peacefully as neighbours. Don't try to be another Saakashvili. Russia has a lot of patience, but will not tolerate another 26 million dead and trust me, they are dead serious about that.

I think You still do not understand. Poland do not want Russia as enemy, however, if we want TMD systems on our soil we have right to have them, and Russia should not complain, we are not complaining about Iskander missiles near our borders, think about that.

If the US can think twice before invading North Korea, I think PRC will think thrice before invading India. That is reality.

Only because nuclear weapons, no think what would happen without nuclear weapons?

There is a difference. India will neither be an ally of Russia, nor that of the US. Poland, however, wants to cocoon itself safely into a camp, be it the Warsaw Pact or NATO. You know, you can be a small country, neutral and still not get into a fight. There are many examples in Europe.

Did You ever seen map of Europe? We can't be neutral, we need to be in some alliance, this does not mean lack of good reliations with Russia. And this examples in Europe, are sitting in safer places than us, this is our price of being a "bridge" between west and east.

 

[pmaitra]

I do not want to be called Mahatma Gandhi, however it is funny, i do not have right to react when someone insult me, my nation, my culture, civilization, but when I say that for such insults I would just show that person what I think about her, then I'am barbarian... I bet that You and many more of Indians would kill me if I would start to insult their nation, culture, civilization, of course I would not do that because contrary to some rascists I respect other cultures and the differences.

Oh c'mon, now this rant about racism is sounding like a broken record. Especially if you keep saying that to me, who is a great admirer of Russian culture, language, music etc., I don't see why I will have to listen to your contant and annoying drivel, especially when you Poles and most Russians belong to the same Slavic race. You are not even making sense to me.

In Iraq we were helping in stabilization efforts, and of course we had hopes for making deals (mostly arms sales) with new Iraqi goverment, unfortunetly Iraq made very little contracts with us... but this is mainly fail of our goverment.

If Poland keeps needling Russia with those missiles, I am sure Russia will enter Poland to stabilise it.

BTW, Iraq was already stable, then US, along with its lackeys, one of them being Poland, invaded, destabilised it and are now leaving it shambles.

We can't be neutral, neither we want to be neutral. We see this that way, we can be part of NATO, we can have good relations with Russian Federation, the problem is rather in some politicians view on both sides.

Well said. You don't want to be neutral. You have a big ego but that is the only big thing you have. You neither have a big enough military, nor economy, to avenge whatever 'bad' Russia has done to you. So you want to bring it down by shooting at Uncle Vlad off Uncle Sam's shoulders. Very smart - NOT! Just disgraceful!

Only because someone helped You fight UK, doesen't mean he deserves respect, this is short sighting and ignorant approach.

Whatever. Hitler, as bad as he might have been, was surely much better than Churchill. The number of Jews killed by the Nazis is but a small fraction of the number of Indians killed by the British, in India alone. I don't even want to bring Africa and China in the calculation.

On genetic level we are closer to Russians, on cultural level we are closer to western europe.

And politically, closer to the US.

Yes, on a genetic level you are closer to Russians, because you are Slavic, and I admire the Russians. So much for repeating the word 'racism' and 'racist' a million times. I am talking about your race. Also, even your language is Slavic.

I think You still do not understand. Poland do not want Russia as enemy, however, if we want TMD systems on our soil we have right to have them, and Russia should not complain, we are not complaining about Iskander missiles near our borders, think about that.

No, that's fine. Might is right - not sure who, but someone once mentioned this "So what? It is natural, weak civilizations were just defeated by stronger ones, this is just natural selection for civilization."

Only because nuclear weapons, no think what would happen without nuclear weapons?

He he, if the US did not have nukes, even PRC would not give a tuppence about it.

Did You ever seen map of Europe?

No, what does it look like? Ice cream?

Just kidding.

I can pretty well draw the map of most of the major countries in Europe, if you gave me the map of the continent outline only.

We can't be neutral, we need to be in some alliance, this does not mean lack of good reliations with Russia. And this examples in Europe, are sitting in safer places than us, this is our price of being a "bridge" between west and east.

If Finland can be, so can you. They have a longer border with Russia than Poland, have fought in the past, but have decided to bury their hatchet. This needling of Russia by these tiny insignificant countries annoys me, and allow me my personal bias if it comes across as such. I really think all these tiny littoral Warsaw Pact and former Soviet republics owe a lot to the Russians. They got all the benefit from USSR and when it collapsed, they ditched it like old worn out clothes. Polish arrogance and snobbery against the Russians annoys me, but not as much as that of Georgia, the 3 Baltic minnows and former Yushchenko ruled Ukraine.

One piece of advice for Poland: Do not punch a bear in the nose unless it is tied down!