OROP: Pension promise in peril?

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

But that's not completely true.
Right now, for an ex-service man, once they retire, their pension is not kept upto date like that of other civilian govt positions. That is being corrected now.
The difference in service period in a rank will be taken into consideration.

Civilians contribute to their pension for roughly 30-35 years of life and take pension for 15-20 years. It is reversed for army people who work 15-20 years and draw pension for 30-35 years.

No surprise it would be a big drag on national exchequer.

 

[Mad Indian]

Civilians contribute to their pension for roughly 30-35 years of life and take pension for 15-20 years. It is reversed for army people who work 15-20 years and draw pension for 30-35 years.

No surprise it would be a big drag on national exchequer.

I would much rather my tax money be spent on army men former or otherwise rather than on useless welfare(including govt employees, which are just less useless welfares)

 

[indiatester]

Civilians contribute to their pension for roughly 30-35 years of life and take pension for 15-20 years. It is reversed for army people who work 15-20 years and draw pension for 30-35 years.

No surprise it would be a big drag on national exchequer.

Yes it would be a drag. But I think we as a nation must reward people who are join the armed forces over civilian jobs.
This can be one of them. Ofcourse its debatable. But considering how my tax money is wasted by the civilian bureaucracy, this spending seems more acceptable.

 

[jackprince]

http://www.staffcorner.com/view.html?id=6224503398989824

A good decision.

An officer/personnel who attains a rank and serves for longer in the rank before retiring should get more remuneration than an officer/personnel who attains a rank and retires with less service in the rank, with minimum Rank-pay being applicable to the same rank despite the year of retire or in which pay commission he retires.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

The cost of OROP seems pretty high. No surprise that there is delay on this front. Here is the link with calculations: http://ajayshahblog.blogspot.fr/2015/07/what-is-cost-of-one-rank-one-pension.html

A quick summary of results.

Speculation
Civil servants are a tiny slice of the Indian economy. It was a real surprise when Bhardwaj and Dave, 2006, found that the implicit pension debt on account of the civil servants pension came up to 64% of GDP. This was an important impetus for the NPS reform.

Uniformed armed force personnel are also a tiny slice of the economy. Even if all they had was a nominal annuity, this could prove to be quite expensive, as the pension starts at a young age, and the health of this group is very good. On top of this, there is the problem of rapid turnaround. On a horizon of 60 years, we go through four cycles of taking in a person at age 20 who retires at age 35, who will live till 80. Therefore, for each person who is presently serving there will be four alive who are drawing pensions. We may speculate that the implicit pension debt on account of the armed forces pension may also be in the region of 50% of GDP. If so, policy changes which double or triple the value of the annuity map to 50 or 100 percent of GDP.

 

[Simple_Guy]

General VP Malik gave up as mediator between military veterans and govt

Gen Malik told the Hindustan Times that he refused to continue as mediator because of the “big gap between both sides on the issue”.

Asked about his views on the implementation of OROP, Gen Malik said: “It has been going on. The definition of OROP has been accepted earlier. The point is whether whatever was defined will be implemented. I will not go into more details. Let us see if the Prime Minister says something tomorrow (in his Independence Day speech).”

 

[Simple_Guy]

10 ex-chiefs write to PM

“We are deeply perturbed and distressed by the highhanded treatment of our veterans on August 14, 2015 at Jantar Mantar. These veterans have been on a peaceful demonstration at this venue and have been trying to make the government hear their voice since June 12, 2015. We unequivocally condemn the action by the police and urge the government to investigate and take immediate action,” the letter by General V N Sharma, General Shakar Roy Choudhary, General N C Vij, Genral J J singh, General Deepak Kapoor, General Bikram Singh, Admiral Madhvendra Singh, Air Chief Marshals N C Suri and S P Tyagi said.

About the government’s argument of technical difficulties in OROP implementation, the letter added: “The often quoted technical difficulties without ever being specified and discussed are thus bewildering. This is simple arithmetic based on the Standard Pension Tables of the government…These delays are construed to be only with a view to bring in changes in the parameters and dilute the entitlements, which will be grossly unjust and unacceptable.”

As seven retired Army chiefs, two Air Force chiefs and a Navy chief sent their letter to the PM, two ex servicemen — Col Pushpender Singh and Havaldar Major Singh — began a fast unto death at Jantar Mantar to push for OROP.

 

[Compersion]

Armed forces ought to have OROP.

I think that delay is there intentionally to make delay mandatory for other branches who will quickly also ask for the same (e.g. Civil administration, etc etc ). But Pension system is apparently being made redundant and provident contribution system in place for civil related departments. Armed Forces ought to have Pension System because what they do and serve for the country is incomparable.

 

[pmaitra]

Does India have enough funds for OROP?

It is one thing to get emotional about these things, and yet another to actually work on the numbers. How many of the tax payers would actually agree to paying more tax to support OROP? It is not just expressing support by writing in an online forum.

Militaries around the world work with their domestic industries and support them, while in India, we have a coterie who cannot look beyond expensive imports. If only our former generals who have written to the PM were as enthusiastic about indigenous weapons, perhaps we would have had some funds to do something, at least partially, towards OROP.

I say, start off with some degree of OROP, only for the Indian Navy, as a reward for their support for saving the national exchequer India's scarce resources.

 

[Simple_Guy]

Did India not have enough funds when the previous UPA govt accepted OROP?

Have the funds vanished or have they actually grown, especially after the coal mines auction and the 2G 3G auctions? Collectively 2 lakh crore and rising.

PM Modi allotted 1.25 lakh crore to Bihar recently ...... any "tax payers" are complaining?

 

[ezsasa]

My impressions on this topic is that, delay is not due to funding issues.

I think the delay is due to complexity in calculations and non-availability of digitised data to arrive at final amount.

That being said I think veterans have over reacted, I won't be surprised to find out later that a few veterans instigated the entire campaign to raise their temper.

Now railways, para military and some other worker unions are also asking for OROP.

 

[jackprince]

Now railways, para military and some other worker unions are also asking for OROP.

And, they wouldn't be unjustified in their demand too. The Civilian employees of the Govt. too dedicate their lives to the nation, albeit with blacksheepos among them. However, armed forces aren't some pure snow either. The civilian employee who has retired 10 years ago and who retires now in the same rank will be having disparity of pension similar to the armed forces personnel. If OROP is applicable to the armed forces, the same cannot be denied to the civilian employees. And, if you cite SC order, I would hope the SC will give a similar order for the civilian employees too. At the end of the day SC is not the one who has to arrange the fund for this. The Govt. has to rob Peter to pay Paul for arranging the fund. Already the 7th pay commission for Central Govt. employees is staring at their face, which in itself is going to drain a lot of fund, and which cannot be delayed because of OROP, as the 7th CPC also affects pay-rise of serving and retired armed forces personnel and it comes after 10years

Did India not have enough funds when the previous UPA govt accepted OROP?

UPA already knew that they are going out, and they just had had to delay it enough that the onus falls on someone else. Now, they did not think that they would strike a goldmine by having a full majority BJP to fulfill that.

I know I am going to be hated, but IMO OROP is impractical and can be ruinous to the economy. The development projects of the govt. will be hurt badly, which will affect industrial growth and overall growth.

 

[ezsasa]

And, they wouldn't be unjustified in their demand too. The Civilian employees of the Govt. too dedicate their lives to the nation, albeit with blacksheepos among them. However, armed forces aren't some pure snow either. The civilian employee who has retired 10 years ago and who retires now in the same rank will be having disparity of pension similar to the armed forces personnel. If OROP is applicable to the armed forces, the same cannot be denied to the civilian employees. And, if you cite SC order, I would hope the SC will give a similar order for the civilian employees too. At the end of the day SC is not the one who has to arrange the fund for this. The Govt. has to rob Peter to pay Paul for arranging the fund. Already the 7th pay commission for Central Govt. employees is staring at their face, which in itself is going to drain a lot of fund, and which cannot be delayed because of OROP, as the 7th CPC also affects pay-rise of serving and retired armed forces personnel and it comes after 10years

UPA already knew that they are going out, and they just had had to delay it enough that the onus falls on someone else. Now, they did not think that they would strike a goldmine by having a full majority BJP to fulfill that.

I know I am going to be hated, but IMO OROP is impractical and can be ruinous to the economy. The development projects of the govt. will be hurt badly, which will affect industrial growth and overall growth.

I don't agree to this point that OROP spending will impact other projects. This sort of attitude is what escalated this issue in the first place. Worst case scenario you can assume that money saved by DBT has been transferred to OROP. One thing we have to agree is that modi govt talks about spending money and making money at the same time, earlier it used to be only about spending money and not much talk about making money.

 

[jackprince]

I don't agree to this point that OROP spending will impact other projects. This sort of attitude is what escalated this issue in the first place. Worst case scenario you can assume that money saved by DBT has been transferred to OROP. One thing we have to agree is that modi govt talks about spending money and making money at the same time, earlier it used to be only about spending money and not much talk about making money.

You skirted the issue here sticking only to OROP. You simply cannot ignore the millions of civilian employee to satisfy the armed forces. The moment OROP is sanctioned and 7CPC is accepted, mark my word that a huge protest over OROP to civilian employees will start. Can you deny the CRPF jawans serving in Maoist areas OROP? Or an honest Govt. employee?

Also, why don't you think there won't be any impact on other projects? The source of money is not unlimited, however much the new investment flow may be. The 7CPC itself is going to cost the Govt. tens of thousands of crores additionally each month. OROP will drive that up by even more. If the civilian employees are to get the same, that cost will rise exponentially.

OROP is simply not worth if the cost is development of nation. That's my take.

 

[ezsasa]

You skirted the issue here sticking only to OROP. You simply cannot ignore the millions of civilian employee to satisfy the armed forces. The moment OROP is sanctioned and 7CPC is accepted, mark my word that a huge protest over OROP to civilian employees will start. Can you deny the CRPF jawans serving in Maoist areas OROP? Or an honest Govt. employee?

Also, why don't you think there won't be any impact on other projects? The source of money is not unlimited, however much the new investment flow may be. The 7CPC itself is going to cost the Govt. tens of thousands of crores additionally each month. OROP will drive that up by even more. If the civilian employees are to get the same, that cost will rise exponentially.

OROP is simply not worth if the cost is development of nation. That's my take.

No I have not skirted, but rather I accept your assumption. The assumption being that every body else is going to start asking for it.

Civilian govt employees have little chance of getting this, I have sufficient expertise on this subject to indicate that their service rules are well defined. They may ask for this but will not get it at the end.

Moreover OROP is a anomaly created in 74 I think, which is being solved now.

I don't have idea about CAPF service rules, so I can't comment on this.

 

[DingDong]

OROP may be implemented, but not at the cost of Indian Taxpayers and Country's development.

And I agree with @pmaitra armed forces must concede that they have done great disservice to the nation during peace time through their obsession for Imported Maal.

Plus why should we ignore our Paramilitary who have made supreme sacrifices?

 

[jackprince]

Civilian govt employees have little chance of getting this, I have sufficient expertise on this subject to indicate that their service rules are well defined. They may ask for this but will not get it at the end.

I am curious. Wasn't armed forces service rules clearly defined regarding pension? Also, service rules can be changed. Heck, it is changed frequently and with a notification. Or have you forgotten the raising age of retirement by 2 years? And, doubt me not, if they see the implications and life time loss, they will ask and actually can bring the whole nation to standstill by consecutive strikes. There hasn't been serious attack on Govt. employees interests in recent times and therefore, the govt. might have forgotten the implications what Govt. employees' strikes can do. It at the least will harm the nation's image and at the most hurt the economy, social welfare to administration, and more.

 

[Mad Indian]

What a sad state in this country-

it has money for Jan dan yojana and cow piss yojana but not for Veteran pensions.

 

[Mad Indian]

@jackprince

I cant believe how you compared armed forces and their veterans with this filth? http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/rs-20-crores-found-in-govt-employee-s-house.69395/

And I cant believe you people are claiming to be nationalists with a straight face while downplaying the needs of the armed forces

 

[Mad Indian]

Regarding import of foreign maal by armed forces. Wow. Just Wow. I am sure all of you guys trashing army out there for using imported maal are using 100% swadeshi products from toothbrush, phones(i, samsung,, motorola,), PCs, tissue paper etc . Awesome.

Hypocrisy and Irony would commit suicide today if they read these statements