Obama okay with Beijing monitoring Indo-Pak ties: What's your take?

[ppgj]

TOI editorial-

No Need To Panic - Edit Page - Opinion - Home - The Times of India

The mention of India and Pakistan in the US-China joint statement issued during US president Barack Obama's trip to China has sent alarm bells ringing in New Delhi. India has been mentioned for the first time in a US-China joint statement since 1998, when Bill Clinton and Jiang Zemin took issue with India for conducting nuclear tests. It was met with a stinging rejoinder from India. But this time around the reference to India hardly merits that kind of reaction.

The joint statement says that the US and China support improvement of relations between India and Pakistan. It further says that the two sides are ready to "strengthen communication, dialogue and cooperation on issues related to South Asia". There's nothing here that should make New Delhi nervous. There are two aspects of the declaration that have possibly raised red flags in India. One, the clubbing together of India and Pakistan raises the spectre of re-hyphenation of the two countries in US foreign policy, something that was seen to have been jettisoned by the George Bush government. Two, it hints at a role for China to broker good relations between New Delhi and Islamabad. This is unacceptable to India which sees relations with Pakistan as a bilateral issue.

New Delhi's fears might stem from reading too much into the US-China joint declaration. That South Asia figures in the declaration shows that both Washington and Beijing are seriously concerned with the region and its role as both an origin as well as target of terror attacks. While the US is already heavily involved in the region, China's role has been much more nebulous. There is good evidence that in the past China has supported Pakistan's nuclear programme. But the prospects of terrorism within China's borders, particularly in Xinjiang, could potentially alter Beijing's policy towards Islamabad and its links to terrorists. In that context, if China agrees to exert its influence over Pakistan it would be a good thing.

Any doubts about US policy towards India must be cleared during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Washington beginning Sunday. There are some misgivings about the direction of Indo-US relations under the Obama government. Following the highs during Bush's presidency, Indo-US relations seem to be somewhat adrift at the moment. The PM should use his visit to inject some much-needed momentum into the relationship. He must make clear that any mediation on Kashmir is unacceptable to New Delhi. Singh must impress on Obama the mutual interests in Pakistan and Afghanistan and the need to work together in both these trouble spots. Above all, the PM must develop on the strong platform for Indo-US ties built during the Bush government.

 

[gokulakannan]

US-China ties not at India's expense, says Washington

US-China ties not at India's expense, says Washington - US - World - The Times of India

WASHINGTON: Key American officials went into damage control mode on Wednesday after New Delhi reacted sharply to Washington's endorsement of a Chinese role in South Asia, saying US relationship with China would not be at India's expense.

"Of course, the United States is interested in pursuing the best and healthiest possible partnership with China; but that does not come at the expense of other increasingly important partnership, particularly our relationship with India," Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Williams Burns said in response to a question during a preview of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit here next week.

Burns, the No.3 official in the State Department said the reference in the joint US-China statement with regard to common international concerns, collective concerns about Afghanistan in particular, "is a very straight forward expression of that we look to China, we look to India, as many other countries in the world, to contribute to stability in Afghanistan."

Burns' remarks were echoed by Robert Blake, the Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia, who also suggested that the US-China joint statement related more to concerns about the Af-Pak region.

Current and former officials suggested the mention of India and Pakistan did not mean the US believed China has any locus standi as an interlocutor and Washington was as keen to discuss regional issues with India as much as with China.

"I believe this (joint statement) was aimed at Af-Pak and could prove to be very helpful, if not now then down the road," former Assistant Secretary of State Karl Rick Inderfurth said. "I do not believe this statement was aimed at India-Pakistan issues (nor should it be) and, thus, one should certainly not read too much into it."

 

[roma]

.......But regardless India just needs to keep pumping out the plutonium and the AGNI'S nothing else India need to do at this time and ignore the noise.

partial quote to hilite the last sentence

certainly agree here - question is will india do that ? they need some tough indira types to stay on course regardsless the international noises and barking .

 

[Emperor]

well, I have some sympathy to you，because you just think everything wiil be find if you lay you head under sands.

I like ur sarcastic sense though

But in reality,China failed to coverup its own citizens.It failed to bring stability on its own territory.It has issues with all its surrounding neighbours.And with all these,Otama wants China to mediate? ROFLMAO.....

You can go and show your cake piece dominance on your slaves pakistan,but not in South-India where India is the King.

You people have to keep your heart tight untill your ships sets sails from gulf and reaches in south china sea having a fear in mind that who is gonna hijack/sink the ship.And we talking about chinese hegemony in IOR ?????No even in the wildest dreams...guy.
Its good that you are sorting out your border disputes with Vietnam.else vietnam might go nuclear :twizt:

 

[roma]

the OTHER side of the coin - minority opinion

US-China ties not at India's expense, says Washington - US - World - The Times of India

quoting only the title of the article ; i'm rather surprised no one has argued the other side of the coin as a possible interpretation.

the usa might actually be telling china in a polite, diplomatic way, to stay out of indo-pak affairs in order the peace may prevail , ie let thenm sort it out on their own.

being in china obamas body language and diplomatic precedures may havce had him say it as diplomatically as possible ?

one strong reason to supposrt this possiblity is that to " hand " south asia over to china - is sheer geopolitical suicide and just unbelieveable to me that anyone , let alone a president of the usa could be that dumb ?

OTOH you never know - he may fit the bill

 

[ppgj]

Paper no. 3510 18-Nov-2009

OBAMA & CHINA: THE COMING SHOCKS ( WHAT I WROTE ON OCTOBER 6, 2009)

By B.Raman

(Extracts from my article at Obama Veering Towards Neutrality On Arunachal Pradesh?)


The Obama Administration is showing signs of greater sensitivity to the concerns and interests of China than those of India. Reliable reports indicate that it is veering towards a policy of neutrality on the issue of Arunachal Pradesh, which has been a major bone of contention between India and China. It is believed to be dragging its feet on the implementation of the understanding reached between the preceding Bush Administration and the Govt. of India for the US Air Force to undertake searches in Arunachal Pradesh territory for US Air Force personnel, who were missing in action during the Second World War.

It is learnt that the formats of the joint exercices between the three wings of the Armed Forces of the two countries, which were agreed upon during the Bush Administration, are being reviewed in order to delete elements, which could cause concern to not only China, but also Pakistan--- such as joint exercises between the two armies in the Siachen area to enable US Army personnel to get exposed to high altitude conditions, joint naval exercises in the seas to the east of India etc.

While the Obama Administration wants to go ahead with the over-all format of the strategic relationship with India as laid down by the Bush Administration, it wants to have a second look at those aspects, which could cause concern to China.

There was one joint naval exercise off Japan involving ships of the navies of India, the US and Japan after Obama assumed office. Such exercises are likely to be avoided in future.

There is also a possibility of the US abstaining when the specific proposal for assistance from the Asian Development Bank (ADB) for a flood control project in Arunachal Pradesh comes up for approval before the ADB.The ADB's Board of Governors had earlier this year, after Obama came to office, approved a basket of projects proposed by India despite opposition ftrom China. It is learnt that ADB officials have been saying that approval for the package as a whole did not mean approval of each individual item in the package and that each individual item has to be approved separately. Efforts are being made to scuttle ADB support for the individual proposal relating to Arunachal Pradesh.

The Obama Administration seems to be thinking that all that it needs to do to humour India and soften the blow due to its steady reversal of the pro-India policies initiated by the Bush Administration is to accord the honours of a State visit to Prime Minister Dr.Manmohan Singh in November and play up the ceremonial honours accorded to him. In the last few days, officials of the US State Department have been briefing the media about the kind of honours which will be accorded to Dr.Manmohan Singh when he visits Washington. These are meant to show that there has been no change in the US policies towards India under the Obama Administration. The reality is that on every matter, which is of concern to India, greater attention is being paid to China's sensitivities and concerns.

( The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institite For Topical Studies, Chennai. He is also associated with the Chennai Centre For China Studies. E-mail: [email protected] )

Obama & China:  The Coming Shocks- ( What IU wrote on October 6, 2009.)

 

[ppgj]

Paper no. 3511 19-Nov-2009

Obama's Failure to Understand Indian Distrust of China

by B. Raman

The failure of President Barack Obama to understand the distrust of China in large sections of the Indian civil society has landed the US in a situation in which the considerable goodwill between India and the US created during the administration of his predecessor George Bush stands in danger of being diluted by his unthinking words and actions.

2. The distrust of China in the Indian civil society is much deeper than even the distrust of Pakistan. Even today, despite Pakistan's continued use of terrorism against India, there is some goodwill for the people of Pakistan in many sections of the Indian civil society. As against this, outside the traditional communist and other leftist circles, one would hardly find any section which trusts China ---its Government as well as its people.

3. The Indian distrust of China arises mainly from three factors. First, the Sino-Indian war of 1962. Second, China's role in giving Pakistan a military nuclear and missile capability for use against India. Third, the Chinese blockage of the pre 26/11 efforts in the sanctions committee of the UN Security Council to declare the Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JUD), the parent organisation of the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LET), as a terrorist organisation and its subsequent opposition for a similar declaration against the Jaish-e-Mohammad (JED).

4. The dubious Chinese stand on the issue of Pakistani use of terrorism against India is viewed by many in India as amounting to collusion.

5. The Indian suspicions of China have been magnified in recent years by Beijing's Look South policy. China is not a South Asian power, but it has sought to create for itself a large South Asian presence by developing a military supply relationship with the countries of the region, by helping India's neighbours in the development of their infrastructure of strategic importance such as ports and by supporting the Maoists of Nepal.

6. At a time when concerns in India over the increasing Chinese strategic presence and influence in India's neigbourhood have been increasing, it is an amazingly shocking act of insensitivity on the part of Obama and his policy advisers to project China as a benign power with a benevolent role in South Asia---- whether for promoting understanding between India and Pakistan or for influencing developments in other countries of the region.

7. It is politically naive on the part of Obama to expect that Indian political and public opinion will accept any role for China in South Asia in matters which impact on India's core interests. Bush's China policy had favourable vibrations in India by highlighting the threats that are likely to be posed by its military modernisation made possible by its economic power. A convergence of concerns over China between Washington and New Delhi laid the foundation for the strategic relationship between the countries.

8. Obama's projection of China as a trustworthy partner of the US in jointly tackling long-standing contentious issues in South Asia shows a shocking ignorance of the fact that China was one of the causes of the persistence of these issues. Its effort has always been not to promote mutual understanding and harmony in South Asia, but to keep India isolated by keeping alive the old distrusts and animosities and creating new ones.

9. At a time when Indian public opinion was looking forward to fruitful results from the forthcoming visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to the US, reports from Beijing on Obama's visit to China would strengthen the impression that Obama is not India's cup of tea.

(The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. He is also associated with the Chennai Centre For China Studies. E-mail: [email protected])

Obama's Failure to Understand Indian Distrust of China

 

[asan_kaka]

I like ur sarcastic sense though

But in reality,China failed to coverup its own citizens.It failed to bring stability on its own territory.It has issues with all its surrounding neighbours.And with all these,Otama wants China to mediate? ROFLMAO.....

You can go and show your cake piece dominance on your slaves pakistan,but not in South-India where India is the King.

You people have to keep your heart tight untill your ships sets sails from gulf and reaches in south china sea having a fear in mind that who is gonna hijack/sink the ship.And we talking about chinese hegemony in IOR ?????No even in the wildest dreams...guy.
Its good that you are sorting out your border disputes with Vietnam.else vietnam might go nuclear :twizt:

Yesterday, offical announcement has been decleared that china has finished border definition with all his neighbors except India. Maybe it's time for us to resolve this problem.:Laie_46:

 

[johnee]

Why is Obama acquiescing to China on key issues? - By Daniel Blumenthal | Shadow Government

Obama's Asia trip: a series of unfortunate events

Before President Obama and Chinese President Hu Jintao released their joint statement, Obama's Asia trip was underwhelming. But after the statement, Obama's foray into Asia went from empty to harmful.

Here, President Obama broke new ground in ways harmful to both American and Indian interests. India and Japan are the two countries within Asia that can check China's desired dominance. For now, China has less to worry about with Japan as the Hatayoma government sorts through its foreign policies. But India is a different matter. It stood firm against China's pressure when the Dalai Lama visited Arunachal Pradesh, an Indian territory claimed by China. Delhi was sending two messages. First, do not interfere in India's internal affairs; the Dalai Lama is free to visit anywhere in India. Second, Arunachal Pradesh is India's territory. China had been putting military pressure on the border region but the Indians did not back down. Delhi is also standing firm in its maritime competition with China in the Indian Ocean. The Indian Navy will not allow China to build a sphere of influence in that maritime region.

Beijing's India strategy is to tie it down in South Asia to stop it from breaking out as a major power. The strategy has three basic pillars. First, Beijing has supported Pakistan's nuclear and conventional military programs. Second, China wants an acknowledged sphere of influence in South Asia. And third, Beijing wants to resurrect the so called "hyphenated" approach to India. It thus needs the United States to again think of India as part of an India-Pakistan problem, rather than as an emerging great power.

During the Bush and Clinton administrations, Delhi and Washington negotiated an arrangement that acknowledged Delhi's global role and increasing influence. This arrangement is of mutual benefit. Pakistan matters less to India as Delhi expands its strategic horizons. As Pakistan's importance to India lessons, so will Indian-Pakistani tensions. But as India frees itself from the weight of its Pakistan problem it has greater maneuverability to increase its influence in East Asia. China is threatened by that.

Thus, China won a diplomatic victory by getting Washington to agree to "cooperate" on issues of peace and development in South Asia. If China and America work together on South Asian issues, such as peace between India and Pakistan, then China is the great power while India is simply another South Asian country that needs help from others to solve its problems. With the joint statement, Obama officially accorded India junior status in Asia.

We should not be surprised by China's positions. What is surprising -- and extremely problematic -- is that on these key issues Obama is acquiescing in them.

 

[stax]

Hi guys, this is my first reply in this forum :stinker:

In china we don't care what US says, not like in India. What US promise is not stable in the past(just like affairs between china and its province Taiwan). So don't be so angry with the joint statement. China will do things in its own way, no matter what US says.

 

[Mohan]

Hi guys, this is my first reply in this forum :stinker:

In china we don't care what US says, not like in India. What US promise is not stable in the past(just like affairs between china and its province Taiwan). So don't be so angry with the joint statement. China will do things in its own way, no matter what US says.

Hi Stax nice to have you here in DFI please introduce yourself at the member introductions thread.

 

[no smoking]

But in reality,China failed to coverup its own citizens.It failed to bring stability on its own territory.It has issues with all its surrounding neighbours.And with all these,Otama wants China to mediate? ROFLMAO.....

Sorry, it is the game of power instead of popularity. By the way, there is no one asking for india's permission

You can go and show your cake piece dominance on your slaves pakistan,but not in South-India where India is the King.

Sorry to bother you during your day-dream. Who acknowledge you are the king? Youself? or Bhutan?

You people have to keep your heart tight untill your ships sets sails from gulf and reaches in south china sea having a fear in mind that who is gonna hijack/sink the ship.And we talking about chinese hegemony in IOR ?????No even in the wildest dreams...guy.

Last time I check, the dominant force in indian sea is: USA navy not Indian navy. Yes, we are scared by USA, not you.

Its good that you are sorting out your border disputes with Vietnam.else vietnam might go nuclear :twizt:

Sorry to wake you up again, vietnam's already signed the NPT. So, they don't want your nuclear weapon. You need to come up with sth better.

 

[Emperor]

Sorry, it is the game of power instead of popularity. By the way, there is no one asking for india's permission
Sorry to bother you during your day-dream. Who acknowledge you are the king? Youself? or Bhutan?
Last time I check, the dominant force in indian sea is: USA navy not Indian navy. Yes, we are scared by USA, not you.
Sorry to wake you up again, vietnam's already signed the NPT. So, they don't want your nuclear weapon. You need to come up with sth better.

Your masters know better than a blogger like you.If China wanted to interfere in the Kashmir issue ,it would have done that long time back when the Indian economy was in shambles.It knows, what would be the likely response from Indian side it becomes an unwelcomed guest.

Every one in the world knows who rules the IOR apart from US.sorry,since you dont have the right to browse the WWW in china, you may be bound to know only the CCP fairy tales like Chinese sub surface in between US battle group(True story is that US SSN trailed the noisy chinese Sub and made it surface in between the battle group),PLAN ship made the Indian sub surface(Again true story is that the It was actually 2 IN subs trailing the PLAN ships right from malacca.Since the DE subs have limited endurance,one ship departed from trailing duty and let the other take charge.)these are only 2 small examples.You better start browsing actual WWW rather than just Xinhua and CCTV and other CCP propaganda machines.
Does is matter if one state signs NPT? China being a signatory ,proliferated.Which is a shameful act.We being not a signatory,kept a clean record.Anyways,its just a matter of time if India wants Vietnam to go nuclear.

 

[no smoking]

Your masters know better than a blogger like you.If China wanted to interfere in the Kashmir issue ,it would have done that long time back when the Indian economy was in shambles.It knows, what would be the likely response from Indian side it becomes an unwelcomed guest.

Oh, realy? What kind of reponse do you expect from india gov? Remeber? Chinese gov has been supplying Pak weapon for several decades. So tehnically, china already interfere the kashmir. What did you do? What will you do? What can you do?

Every one in the world knows who rules the IOR apart from US.

Sorry, in this world, no one care Mr number two. The world only knows it is US ruling the IOR.

Does is matter if one state signs NPT? China being a signatory ,proliferated.Which is a shameful act.We being not a signatory,kept a clean record.Anyways,its just a matter of time if India wants Vietnam to go nuclear.

Oh, it does matter, Mr number two. Before you make any claim on behalf of vietnam, you should ask their opinion. By the way, china's profliferation happened before signing NPT of 1992. So, china didn't violate NPT.

 

[bengalraider]

Sorry, in this world, no one care Mr number two. The world only knows it is US ruling the IOR.

.

For that matter the USN rules the south china sea as well, the entire PLAN put together cannot stand against two USN NIMITZ battlegroups.

 

[Emperor]

Oh, realy? What kind of reponse do you expect from india gov? Remeber? Chinese gov has been supplying Pak weapon for several decades. So tehnically, china already interfere the kashmir. What did you do? What will you do? What can you do?
Sorry, in this world, no one care Mr number two. The world only knows it is US ruling the IOR.
Oh, it does matter, Mr number two. Before you make any claim on behalf of vietnam, you should ask their opinion. By the way, china's proliferation happened before signing NPT of 1992. So, china didn't violate NPT.

I love to laugh at your ignorance.Didnt you noticed the Indian response yet?
You opt an asymmetric war? so do we.Go and browse the pages from the last 2 years.And the response will just reach the devastating levels if Chinese meddle more.
IT is good that CCP is covering as many issues from the public.it is only good in the short run,but not int the long run.It wont be longer for the coastal chinese to feel the wrath of India unlike western and central.

US dominance is all over the world.Its not just restricted to IOR.Hence India became the major Naval power and regional power in IOR ignoring US.But considering the situation in south-china sea where even Vietnam and Taiwan do project power along side China and Japan and US ,I can only see a major US dominance with a lot of minor naval forces.
China is even proliferating today.Do you think china is honouring NPT? It will never.And the reason is obvious.which shows its track record from reverse engineering ,dis-honouring patents,proliferating missile and nuclear tech,.........
I better start searching where China honoured to a certain cause.

 

[no smoking]

For that matter the USN rules the south china sea as well, the entire PLAN put together cannot stand against two USN NIMITZ battlegroups.

Yes, this is the fact. And PLAN is the number 3 force in this area. So, PLAN is nothing if we are talking about the influence.

 

[no smoking]

I love to laugh at your ignorance.Didnt you noticed the Indian response yet?
You opt an asymmetric war? so do we.Go and browse the pages from the last 2 years.And the response will just reach the devastating levels if Chinese meddle more.
IT is good that CCP is covering as many issues from the public.it is only good in the short run,but not int the long run.It wont be longer for the coastal chinese to feel the wrath of India unlike western and central.

Oh, please feel free to elighten me how india responsed. Don't tell what india will do since you are the "emperor" of india, just what did it do.

US dominance is all over the world.Its not just restricted to IOR.Hence India became the major Naval power and regional power in IOR ignoring US.But considering the situation in south-china sea where even Vietnam and Taiwan do project power along side China and Japan and US ,I can only see a major US dominance with a lot of minor naval forces.

Still means nothing.

China is even proliferating today.Do you think china is honouring NPT? It will never.And the reason is obvious.which shows its track record from reverse engineering ,dis-honouring patents,proliferating missile and nuclear tech,.........
I better start searching where China honoured to a certain cause.

You should better start searching where china violated the NPT before opening your big mouth.

 

[roma]

gioing thru some of the posts above - quite frankly they seem to be off topic !

was just listening to ndtv's coverage of obama's media releases after meeting with MMS thus far . He has made corrections about his reported asking china to play a role in south asia. He seems to be saying , that's not what i said , that's not what i meant , the "usual" denials. My take - it's out in the open. Obama may not have had a firm foreign policy regarding asia , he's now asking Cohen to do it . Till then , hang on, dont take it too seriously, policy still in formative stages ! hah !

 

[sandeepdg]

Uh....Giving a go ahead for China to interfere with internal affairs in India and Pakistan is a pretty big snub!

China did hyperventilate over the Dalai Lama's visit, but India tried to compensate by restricting media! Now, is that a fully raised middle finger? Or just a timid one? LOL

Why is a Japo so happy about Chinese meddling in Indian affairs by the way ???