NSG to hold unprecedented special session to discuss India's membership

[spikey360]

@Yumdoot to a large extent you are right. Russia likes China at the moment because at present, China coordinates their anti West policies with Russia. So it is an "enemy's enemy" relationship for both of them. What we can simply do is have our own set of anti West policies and Russia will be much more comfortable dealing with Bharat and ejecting the Chinese. Because, let's face it, the thought of facing the west alone is scary and Russia is happy to have China on the same boat with them. However, should we appear or rather be, a better partner in the fight against West, I don't think the Russians would hesitate sending the Chinese relationship to the guillotine.

 

[Yumdoot]

@spikey360,

Russians are at the moment more dependent on the Chinese than on us. Only interest that the Russians have in us is to balance China in Asia. An interest they share with the Europeans, the Americans, the ASEAN countries and Far East. Which is why nearly everybody supported Indian entry into NSG with only the China and countries dependent on it remaining against. Nearly everybody fears the Chinese intentions. Nearly nobody fears Indian intentions. We should ideally make sure that this situation remains while we develop our military muscle as an organic development of our economic capacity.

Just the way we need to keep our relationship with US independent of China we must also keep our relationship with Russia, independent of China. Our fight with China is our fight and not a subset of the American fight or the Russian fight.

With several years of American propaganda on Indian MSM and Indian SM, a large part of our population interested in military matters has begun to feel impotent. Which is unjustified.

The military might of India is sufficient today for nearly all challenges that China can throw at us while the military might of China is bound almost completely by their preoccupations in the little pond they call the South China Sea.

For example the assets that they have put on Tibet and inside Pakistan are more accessible from India then from the real China (beyond TAR), where bulk of their capacity resides. Similarly the tunneling being made by China in Himalayas have been talked about openly, as if it represents a threat bigger than the capacity of Indian Army to defend properly in that terrain. Our problem vis-a-vis China will be better served by concentrating on the Himalayan infrastructure. Signing up as ally of anybody is not a solution. If anything allying with outsiders compromises vast part of our military, bureaucracy and research establishments, which is a long term threat for India.

Similarly from the Chinese perspective the Japanese and South Korean military capabilities are more threatening than the Indian ones. Japanese and South Koreans represent immediate and present danger to them. Just to give you an idea. The fire power that Japanese and South Korean Navies (independent of USN), can bring to bear on per square mile of SCS is several times more than what the Indian Navy can muster against say the Pakistani Navy.

 

[hit&run]

The best way forward is invest more money in R&D of Nuclear technology and produce high quality products that we can export to countries with bilateral agreements. Keeping friendly countries in the loop will be exercised, nonetheless.

We must be technology capable and have enough clout to pull out such trade agreements to bypass NSG.

When they do not let you be part of the game even knowing you deserve to be in one; start your own game.

 

[hit&run]

@spikey360,

Russians are at the moment more dependent on the Chinese than on us. Only interest that the Russians have in us is to balance China in Asia. An interest they share with the Europeans, the Americans, the ASEAN countries and Far East. Which is why nearly everybody supported Indian entry into NSG with only the China and countries dependent on it remaining against. Nearly everybody fears the Chinese intentions. Nearly nobody fears Indian intentions. We should ideally make sure that this situation remains while we develop our military muscle as an organic development of our economic capacity.

Just the way we need to keep our relationship with US independent of China we must also keep our relationship with Russia, independent of China. Our fight with China is our fight and not a subset of the American fight or the Russian fight.

With several years of American propaganda on Indian MSM and Indian SM, a large part of our population interested in military matters has begun to feel impotent. Which is unjustified.

The military might of India is sufficient today for nearly all challenges that China can throw at us while the military might of China is bound almost completely by their preoccupations in the little pond they call the South China Sea.

For example the assets that they have put on Tibet and inside Pakistan are more accessible from India then from the real China (beyond TAR), where bulk of their capacity resides. Similarly the tunneling being made by China in Himalayas have been talked about openly, as if it represents a threat bigger than the capacity of Indian Army to defend properly in that terrain. Our problem vis-a-vis China will be better served by concentrating on the Himalayan infrastructure. Signing up as ally of anybody is not a solution. If anything allying with outsiders compromises vast part of our military, bureaucracy and research establishments, which is a long term threat for India.

Similarly from the Chinese perspective the Japanese and South Korean military capabilities are more threatening than the Indian ones. Japanese and South Koreans represent immediate and present danger to them. Just to give you an idea. The fire power that Japanese and South Korean Navies (independent of USN), can bring to bear on per square mile of SCS is several times more than what the Indian Navy can muster against say the Pakistani Navy.

Russia is a superpower and has own robust algorithms that will kick in to start cutting and checking China beyond certain influence Chinese would try to exert.

I see trade between Russia and India for nuclear supplies independent of Chinese influence; can't say the same about other SCO member states.

 

[ersakthivel]

It is not a defeat as argued by some crap heads, India has succeeded in convincing 95 % of NSG members of its impeccable credentials.

India should retaliate by reducing tourist visas granted to Indian tourists to visit Swiitzerland, ban switch high end watches from india,

India should pass a law in parliament which bans import from countires occupying indian lands & bulding infra projects in pak occupied kashmir, from 2018 onwards,It automatically bars 50 billion dollar chinese imports into india, and firm up the rupee,

India should declare 60 % capital subsidy & very attractive incentives for any investors who are willing to commit money & tech for state of the art FAB , that can produce the chips , circuit boards & other imporatant items which form the back bone of any electronic device, It will lead to substitution of chinese mobile phones & electronic devices with indian made ones.

No one will risk losing the one of the worlds largest markets for nitpicking over non existing issues & stalling india's progress in N trade.

If they still want to delay india's progress they should be made to pay for it, fair enough!!!

If we dont show some spine, no one will respect us.

 

[ersakthivel]

As I said before Modi put all his weight for NSG but for now we failed. May be 4-5 years down the line India will be part of NSG but for now congis and AAPiens have started celebrating.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...hina-remains-unmoved/articleshow/52841834.cms

Modi has not failed, he has exposed the janus face of china to the whole world , which professes NPT for india, but wants pakistan, the biggest nuclear, suicied, bomer, missile export, terror nation on NSG!!!

And Obama is not going the whole hog like Bush did for india in NSG waiver, expected from democrats who are still only doing eyewash on india-us relations. All the recent progress in indo-us relations were due to Modi's effort only, ignoring the repeated barbs of VISA denial, fake church attack sermons from Obama on India visit, selling F-16 to pak etc, etc, which is beyond the mental capacity if AAPtards, Congis to ever comprehend,

But now with US issuing a statement that a time bound working group established to discuss criterian for non NPT members joining NSG, chinese eyewash of "Consensus" is over. because India has impeccable credentials to clear any criteria for non NPT members,

So chinese tactic of using pak to block india will boomerang in future, because the whole world knows the proliferation activities of Pak,

This is how diplomacy moves.

india had the horror of makin Nehru, who refused US help to explode a nuclear device in 1963!!, And now running around in NSG circles on the magical 1974 NPT dateline!!!

Despite the monumental left leaning crookedness of nehru ,who also refused the offer of UN permanent set to favor the chinese thieves, India has done well under vajpayee, MMS & Modi to untangle the nuclear web spun around india .

Now we are MTCR member, have NSG waiver freeing us from NPT tangle for N imports, & very near the finishing line NSG run(which was set up to curb our N ambitions after 1974 explosion!!) to facilitate future N exports,

china can beat its head against its own great wall , however longer it may wish, but in the very near future india will get into NSG.

 

[ezsasa]

It looks like pakis are wasting their financial negotiations with Chinese by trying to get even with us rather than getting better terms for themselves on CPEC deals.

For example: there were massive reductions in tariffs for Chinese firms using Gwadar, just a week or so before NSG meet.

Chinese will be more than willing because it is win-win for them.

 

[mattster]

For as long as I have been a member of DFI......I have said this over and over again until the cows come home:

CHINA will never support INDIA in any manner whatsoever !!!
Why is this a surprise to anyone in India ??

I like Modi.....I think he is good for India, but I would be completely shocked if Modi thought that making a personal appeal to Xi Jinping would change anything.

It doesn't matter who is in power in China - The Chinese view India/China relations within the Asian context as a Zero Sum Power Game. One side has to lose for the other side to win.

This is the cultural mentality of the Chinese - they cannot change. They are a product of thousands of years of a "dog-eat-dog" culture - it is engrained in their DNA. (you can only understand this if you have been born and raised around them)

India has a lot of clueless educated/political elites who are in love with the idea of being a non-aligned country = very good for China. A non-aligned India creates no problems for China......but anytime India needs China"s help, the Chinese show the middle finger with no consequences.
The Chinese have the best of both worlds when it comes to India - a country that is afraid of aligning with the West and its allies, but also weak enough to be bullied on the global stage.

I guess Indians are just slow learners - every new PM coming into office thinking that they can change the relationship with China by appealing to the better instincts of a new Chinese leader, and comes away looking like a fool.

All Indians would be wise to heed what Albert Einstein said:
Definition of Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result

 

[SANITY]

.
It doesn't matter who is in power in China - The Chinese view India/China relations within the Asian context as a Zero Sum Power Game. One side has to lose for the other side to win.

You mean they want to be hegemon like America but in Asia and there is no one who seeks friendship or development of other Asian nations or limit it their own nation's progress?

This is the cultural mentality of the Chinese - they cannot change. They are a product of thousands of years of a "dog-eat-dog" culture - it is engrained in their DNA.

(you can only understand this if you have been born and raised around them)

You were born and raised around them?

India has a lot of clueless educated/political elites who are in love with the idea of being a non-aligned country = very good for China. A non-aligned India creates no problems for China......but anytime India needs China"s help, the Chinese show the middle finger with no consequences.

Alignment doesn't come without side effects. Pakistan is a good example, a long time non-nato ally of US.

The Chinese have the best of both worlds when it comes to India - a country that is afraid of aligning with the West and its allies, but also weak enough to be bullied on the global stage.

We want progress. We value lives. Just don't want to be a part of more conflicts. I would like to believe that US is the saviour of human kind but I have doubts on west especially US seeking to be ally with us beyond their own interests.

I guess Indians are just slow learners - every new PM coming into office thinking that they can change the relationship with China by appealing to the better instincts of a new Chinese leader, and comes away looking like a fool.

That we are and that is why aligning with west wasn't a good option when we didn't understand and didn't seek to be in geo-politics.

All Indians would be wise to heed what Albert Einstein said:
Definition of Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result

True in certain contexts but I really doubt that Einstein never tried any of his formulas more than once.
It's not repetition of the same thing and expecting different results but looking for different/better/proper ways which can take some time.

BTW, are you an Indian-American or like an American-American?

 

[mattster]

I am an Indian (Malayalee) American who grew up in South East Asia in a very Chinese neighborhood.
I grew up with them, competed with them, played with them, ate with them, and I understand the Chinese psyche and mentality well....both the good and bad.

The key thing to understand when you compete with Chinese is that its a "dog eat dog" aka "take no prisoners" game. Its that way in China when they compete against each other, and they bring that same ruthless attitude with them in geo-politics.

They follow international rules when it suits them, and they wipe their asses with paperwork of international treaties and agreements that are not in their favor. They don't play fair, or compete fair......there are no rules...they only respect laws that are beneficial to them as long as they are beneficial to them. They use their economic, military or whatever tactic that suits them.

They only respect strength and power.

Indians who think that China will consciously somehow make a good faith effort to accommodate a rising India in the Asian geo-political sphere are simply delusional fools.

 

[3deffect]

For as long as I have been a member of DFI......I have said this over and over again until the cows come home:

CHINA will never support INDIA in any manner whatsoever !!!
Why is this a surprise to anyone in India ??

once chankya says.." dosto ke close rho,but enemy's ke jayada close rho" is se you can understand enemy mind/thinking/observation and then you can plan next step according that

 

[hit&run]

For as long as I have been a member of DFI......I have said this over and over again until the cows come home:

CHINA will never support INDIA in any manner whatsoever !!!
Why is this a surprise to anyone in India ??

It is not a surprise to anyone in India.

What you see here in Indian media, OpEds and so called analysts circles must be seen with good understanding of Internal politics. Their malignant hatred for this government can easily explain their methods.

It will be worth to note that there was no hype created by Modi government on NSG issue, they were even reluctant to name any country. It is well known fact, even openly complained by blatantly anti Modi media people that this government do not cater them anything, not even a press brief during Modi's foreign visits.

There is a pattern in this whole exercise where these media house create hype themselves, start talking in behalf of government. If government gets some success it gets buried by highlighting other controversies and if it fails all media hounds are unleashed to humiliate the government.

As far as trolling by Paki losers and Chinese who are even scared of their own shadows need not any explanation as they have their own obvious reason which no one take seriously. However it should be better for Indians to expose Chinese insecurities that they can even go low to support terrorists and Pakistanis licking their testicles like sub humans.

 

[AnantS]

Look the alternative Path to NSG for India,which is being talked about is India promising to accede to NPT in time bound manner. This fulfills USA's ultimate aim & basis of creating NPT: of making India sign NPT as non nuclear power and thus roll back India's program. India should never ever accept that!
We know about wheeler and dealers who will publish countless articles and news clips how NPT is good for India to create pressure on Govt. PM Modi should stay clear. If ex PM MMS could stay away from NPT, so can current PM Modi. Hopefully he does not get swayed to much by NRI community in US.

 

[SANITY]

Indians who think that China will consciously somehow make a good faith effort to accommodate a rising India in the Asian geo-political sphere are simply delusional fools.

I don't know if any Indian thinks of China making a good faith effort. Majority of people wouldn't know much about China to have a view or concern. You don't read about them in books, you don't see China news on TV either. I don't know who are the Indians you are talking about.

And the solution you give, to ally with US. What kind of alignment do you seek with them? They already call India, a natural ally of US.

 

[Zebra]

.....Alignment doesn't come without side effects. Pakistan is a good example, a long time non-nato ally of US.

When you take this country specifically, then to counter your point, let me take Turkey as an example.
How things get changed in a country ......!
And what US can do about it ........?
If a country prefer wrong path, what US can do in it.
If that country prefer to go on down / wrong path and if they seek US help in it, mark my word, US will help them in it.
And it is not US at fault, if that country being a US ally, prefer to use US on wrong path. Again, take Turkey as an example here.

On other hand US do has many other allies.
Imagine if India become US ally, a full time ally, do you really think Indians (includes you also , as per your country flag), will become zombies like that country you just named.
OR
Take Canada , Australia, Japan , Singapore.
Do you think , one day they gonna be like that country, as you named.

We want progress.

If really you and other Indians wants progress, then force your govt to open the "System" first.
And make it more and more people friendly.
Without it, it is not possible.
And your govt / establishment is not happy to open the "System".

We value lives. Just don't want to be a part of more conflicts.

Let me quote someone, "China does not respect weakness".

I would like to believe that US is the saviour of human kind but I have doubts on west especially US seeking to be ally with us beyond their own interests.

True.
Then we, the Indians are not saint either.
We look at our own interests also.
In short, India and US , both are on same boat.

That we are and that is why aligning with west wasn't a good option when we didn't understand and didn't seek to be in geo-politics...........

That is your thinking.

But the facts is, we, the Indians are in world geo-politics already.
And, joining with west / US is the best option right now.
Bcz they need India.
And India can get better from them.
As India can bargain better in current situation.

If India go with China and China become more and more powerful country.
At the same time, if west / US become more weak then any time China can kick India's ass.
At the end of the day, China is a communist country anyway.

Let me clear...........
I am not against China / Russia, but I don't want to trust China / Russia either.
Today, we need a powerful west / US to counter China / Russia.

In past India was with Soviet / Russia to counter US / west.
The same way, this time, stay with US / west to counter China / Russia also.

My two cents though.

 

[ezsasa]

In case we forget, prior to NSG meet we did publicise the Brahmos sale to Vietnam, There by challenging China.

From China's point of view, their strategy of propping up of pakis against india also worked to an extent. This is one of the reasons for CPEC nonsense.

Moves and counter moves.....

 

[SANITY]

If a country prefer wrong path, what US can do in it?

Not the same thing they do with Pakistan.

If that country prefer to go on down / wrong path and if they seek US help in it,

Which country is to point/help/correct US errors?

Imagine if India become US ally, a full time ally, do you really think Indians (includes you also , as per your country flag), will become zombies like that country you just named.

What is required of India for that alliance? Be enemy of RUSSIA/China? US is very much responsible for Pakistan problem that we have. Their arragance comes from fake alliance with USA.

Take Canada , Australia, Japan , Singapore.
Do you think , one day they gonna be like that country, as you named.

Barack Obama said that US and India is a natural ally. What's the hurdle in our relationship from your point of view?

If really you and other Indians wants progress, then force your govt to open the "System" first.
And make it more and more people friendly.
Without it, it is not possible.
And your govt / establishment is not happy to open the "System".

What do you mean by opening system and making it more people friendly? US miltary bases?

Let me quote someone, "China does not respect weakness".

That is your thinking.

But the facts is, we, the Indians are in world geo-politics already.
And, joining with west / US is the best option right now.

If India go with China and China become more and more powerful country.
At the same time, if west / US become more weak then any time China can kick India's ass.

Irrelevant comments.

Let me clear...........
I am not against China / Russia, but I don't want to trust China / Russia either.
Today, we need a powerful west / US to counter China / Russia.

I don't know what threat is posed by Russia to us. About China threat, I don't think that we will refuse help but what is demanded of us in return.

In past India was with Soviet / Russia to counter US / west.
The same way, this time, stay with US / west to counter China / Russia also.

I am not aware when was India aligned against west/US. I am not sure an alignment is possible beyond mutual interests and not against any one. Does alignment with us comes with NSG membership and UNSC seat? Will they stop showing Indian territories as desputed in their maps or stop funding Pakistani terrorists?