Not a Done Deal: Russia and China are Still Negotiating Sale of Su-35 Fighter and S-400 System

Discussion in 'China' started by airtel, Nov 18, 2016.

  1. airtel

    airtel Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,995
    Likes Received:
    6,193

    Not a Done Deal: Russia and China are Still Negotiating Sale of Su-35 Fighter and S-400 System


    [​IMG]
    A retired Russian Lt. General just gave TNI the inside scoop.

    Dave Majumdar

    November 15, 2016

    Russia has not formally signed a contract to sell the Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E and S-400 surface-to-air missile system to China. Right now, Moscow has only agreed in principle to sell those advanced weapons to China.

    “First of all, let’s be accurate. We have not sold yet,” said retired Lt. Gen. Evgeny Buzhinsky (Ret.), chairman of the executive board of Russia’s PIR Center, during a lunch event at the Center for the National Interest on Nov. 15. “We are in the process of very tough and very difficult negotiations on these issues.”

    The Russians and the Chinese have made the decision on the sale in principle, but the deals are not finalized. However, in the meantime, the Kremlin and the Chinese leadership have signed an agreement to protect Russian intellectual property—which Moscow hopes will prevent Beijing from stealing its technology. “The principle decisions on S-400 is taken—the principle decision on Su-35 is taken,” Buzhinsky said. “We signed the protection of intellectual property agreement, which was a precondition for the supply of Su-35.”

    But Russia is well aware that an agreement with China to protect its intellectual property might well be meaningless. Buzhinsky said that Russia is not about to hand over the crown jewels of its technology to China without taking precautions. The Chinese version of the Su-35 will not be the same as the one used by the Russian Air Force. “We have export version and a version for our own use,” Buzhinsky said. “The Chinese are very good at copying all kinds of stuff.”

    Nonetheless, Russia is confident that its technology will be safe in Chinese hands—particularly the all-important Saturn AL-41F1S engine. “They cannot produce engines,” Buzhinsky said. “We agreed to supply engines for the Su-35, but fortunately—my technical colleagues told me—that it is practically impossible to copy that engine because it is practically impossible just to reach the heart of the engine without breaking it completely.”

    China is expected to purchase 24 advanced Su-35s from Russia—but most observers believe that Beijing’s motive is to harvest those aircraft for their technology. While Beijing is working on developing advanced stealth fighter aircraft such as the J-20 and J-31, the Chinese have proven to be woefully behind in developing jet propulsion technology. Indeed, the J-20 is known to use Russian Salut AL-31FN engines—which were originally designed to power variants of the Russian Su-27 Flanker.

    While Moscow is confident that China will not be able to pick the Su-35 and S-400 clean of their advanced technology, Beijing has proven to be remarkably adept at technology theft. It remains to be seen if the Kremlin’s safeguards will be effective in preventing the Chinese from reverse engineering the S-400, Su-35 and its engines. Only time will tell.


    Source URL (retrieved on November 17, 2016): http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...-china-are-still-negotiating-sale-su-35-18419
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    @abingdonboy @Akask kumar @aditya10r
    @Abhijat @A chauhan @Alien @alphacentury @Ancient Indian @anupamsurey @Brood Father @Berkut@blueblood @brational @Bangalorean @Blackwater @Bornubus @bose @cobra commando @DingDong @DFI_COAS @ezsasa @ersakthivel @fooLIam @gpawar @guru-dutt @hit&run @HariPrasad-1 @Indx TechStyle @jackprince @Kharavela @Illusive @I_PLAY_BAD @LETHALFORCE @Lions Of Punjab @maomao @Mad Indian @OneGrimPilgrim @Peter @piKacHHu @Project Dharma @porky_kicker @Razor @raja696 @raheel besharam @Rowdy @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @saty @sydsnyper @Srinivas_K @Screambowl @sorcerer @Simple_Guy @Sylex21 @wickedone @tarunraju @TrueSpirit2 @thethinker @vayuu1 @VIP @Vishwarupa @VIP @Varahamihira @roma @Navnit Kundu
    @rashna
    @gadeshi @Martian @J20! @amoy @SexyChineseLady
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
    Immanuel and Bornubus like this.
  2.  
  3. shiphone

    shiphone Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,866
    Likes Received:
    1,759
    LOL...how pathetic...

    ------------------
    Su35 contract was signed before the end of year 2015...and first batch(4 jets) is due to be delivered next month...pilots are still in Russia, and Ground crew have returned. the combat unit which is recieving new bird is a ACE unit well know in China. they are helping the brother regiment in same Fighter Division to learn flying the J11A which used to be theirs...

    and on Airshow China this month: Russian <Take off>, Zhuhai Airshow Edition.

    u5820a10aaffed1493 (1)_副本.jpg

    ----------------------------
    and about S400 deal...PLAAF is operating 27 units of S300 serial SAM consisting one forth of the PLAAF SAM force strenth which including:

    4 units of S300PMU
    8 units of S300PMU1
    15 units of S300PUM2

    and 4 units of S300PMU was delivered in 1993 ,more than 20 years ago... S400 would be the nature replacement for these elite units...
     
    gadeshi and Neo like this.
  4. republic_roi97

    republic_roi97 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,810
    Likes Received:
    2,168
    Location:
    Lucknow
    But, the concerns of russians are genuine, intellectual property rights mean :bs: in China.

    @Yusuf has also tweeted. :biggrin2:
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  5. republic_roi97

    republic_roi97 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,810
    Likes Received:
    2,168
    Location:
    Lucknow
    However, there are news reports that chinese are about to within few months time, get their Su-35, and now this sudden report that no contract was made ??? WTF WTH ??
     
    gadeshi likes this.
  6. airtel

    airtel Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,995
    Likes Received:
    6,193
    the National Interest is an American website so this report may or may not be true .

    but most of the time this website is trustworthy .
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
    gadeshi and republic_roi97 like this.
  7. Bornubus

    Bornubus Chodi Bhakt & BJPig Hunter Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2015
    Messages:
    7,496
    Likes Received:
    16,886
    Chinese are double crossing insects so Russia is right for not selling SU 35/ S 400 without taking precautions.


    Earlier these Chinese copied every Russian stuff and sold it to failed states militaries at dirt cheap price.



    Only thing Chinese will get for sure is the combined fist and boots of Vietnam, Japan, Philippines and US and possibly from India at LAC
     
    gadeshi and aditya10r like this.
  8. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    84
    It was never a real news story since the "news" of the Su-35 sale only comes from Russia never China and has been claimed since 2012!

    Real export news like the RD-93 for the JF-17 are announced by both sides.

    If Russia is really worried about Chinese "stealing" it could simply cut off exports of the RD-93 and stop a major Chinese program. But the JF-17 main assembler said they will continue using RD-93s even after WS-13 is ready for the FC-31 so the Russian supply is assured.
     
  9. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    84
    Both Vietnam and Japan depend on China trade. In fact, China is the hub of the East Asian supply chain. Every nation in the Far East -- Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Mongolia, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc. -- depends on China as their largest trade partner.

    Philippines under Duterte has already called Obama a "son of a bitch" and moved towards accomodation of China.

    East Asia is too connected economically to go to war even between reported "enemies." All you need to do is check the trade and tourism figures of China and Japan.

    War with India maybe possible since there are very little economic and cultural links but geo-politically it is not worthwhile to bother. China has very few frontline troops and equipment in Tibet. East Asia is geo-politically the most important region to China by far so war if necessary will most likely happen there but human interaction between East Asian countries makes war between them nearly impossible.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
    gadeshi likes this.
  10. airtel

    airtel Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,995
    Likes Received:
    6,193
    LOL .....................Pakistan is using RD93 just because ws13 is not efficient , reliable and trustworthy .

    also RD93 is very old technology ...............even India is producing RD93 under license since decades for MIG29 .


    by the way this is Global times official newspaper of CCP (Published on : 2015-11-20) http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/953793.shtml


    china was interested , is interested .
     
  11. airtel

    airtel Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,995
    Likes Received:
    6,193
    war with India is not possible because we both have nukes ICBM & SLBM .

    full scale war War between India-china means destruction of half of the world . ...............Most probably USA will use Philippines , hongkong & Taiwan Against china ...........just like they used Pakistan against India .

    CIA can kill Duterte or change their govt. Anytime ............and Japan is unofficial colony of USA they will fight with China .
     
    gadeshi likes this.
  12. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    84
    Okay, if the WS-13 is not reliable then the Russians can hold the JF-17 hostage and make China stop "stealing."

    But they don't do so and continue to supply the RD-93. They are not worried by Chinese copying. So that is not the reason for the Su-35 not selling.

    Nope, the Global Times article you posted quoted only Russians. If it were officially Chinese news they would quote a Chinese official.

    The GT quotes foreign articles on China all the time. But those are not official Chinese positions just the position of the foreign news source.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  13. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    84
    Read my post, I said that war is possible because of the lack of trade and human interaction between India and China but very unlikely because it is not geo-politically important enough. There is very little frontline troops and equipment facing India.

    Why would the US make Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. suffer economically in an unlikely war between China and India? They would sit back and watch.

    BTW, the US and China will never go to war. General Motors, Boeing and all of the US Fortune 500 has China as their largest or second largest market. China is even the biggest overseas market for US propaganda, Hollywood! (This is bad sometimes because now Hollywood is using China as an excuse to keep all leading roles white because they say Chinese won't watch blacks or other peoples of color.)

    The US wants to contain China but still keep it as the major market for its allies.
     
  14. gadeshi

    gadeshi Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    9,223
    Likes Received:
    6,076
    Location:
    Kharkiv/Ukraine
    This is BS due to Chinese pilots and ground crews undergo Su-35S usage trainings on KnAAZ from the last week.

    Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk
     
  15. gadeshi

    gadeshi Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    9,223
    Likes Received:
    6,076
    Location:
    Kharkiv/Ukraine
    India is producing RD-33

    Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk
     
  16. republic_roi97

    republic_roi97 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,810
    Likes Received:
    2,168
    Location:
    Lucknow
    Doesn't matter. RD-93 is basically a variant of RD-33.
     
    gadeshi likes this.
  17. aditya10r

    aditya10r Mera Bharat mahan Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    9,053
    Location:
    patna
    It's very unreliable as well.............................
     
    republic_roi97 likes this.
  18. republic_roi97

    republic_roi97 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,810
    Likes Received:
    2,168
    Location:
    Lucknow
    Yeah they just repositioned the gear box to bottom of casing and a few tweaks here and there and voila. RD-93 !!
     
    gadeshi and aditya10r like this.
  19. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    84
    Hard to argue against this. Especially since the MiG-29K crashed off of Syria in its maiden voyage and the Indian CAG had called the MiG-29K and especially its engine unfit for duty half of the time.

    That said, it is forced by necessity which is why the Russian and Indian navies are completely dependent on this engine because there is no other options. The Russians can stop the JF-17 program cold if they worry about copying of the Su-35 but they don't. So stealing is not the reason why the Su-35 is not in China.
     
    aditya10r likes this.
  20. aditya10r

    aditya10r Mera Bharat mahan Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    9,053
    Location:
    patna
    But given the history of Chinese military industrial complex of copying or stealing technology is a major concern for Russia.

    The best example being(su-27 to j-11 and j-16,s u-33 to j-15,s-300 to hq series Sam systems,f-35 data to j-31 and many other such examples).
     
  21. Mikesingh

    Mikesingh Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2015
    Messages:
    5,270
    Likes Received:
    16,195
    Location:
    Tora Bora
    Message to the copycat Chinese....

    [​IMG]
     

Share This Page