Nikki's 'white' claim kicks up a row

[civfanatic]

^^ The notion of America as a "melting pot" of global cultures is a false one. A more accurate term would be a "salad bowl". The individual components (the various different cultures) are all present, but they can be distinguished, just like lettuce and onions can be distinguished in a salad.

Although very few Americans will talk about it, race has historically played a huge role in American nation-building and continues to play a large role today. All the white immigrants to America - the English, Irish, Germans, Italians, French, Scandinavians, and so forth - have all homogenized into American society, have intermixed, and are today largely indistinguishable. Those immigrants of other races, have not homogenized, and maintain their cultural identities to varying degrees. The African Americans are the best example of this. Even after being separated from their homeland for 400 years, they maintain a unique cultural identity in America, and this is possible only because of racial differences between them and the white Americans. There were prominent black nationalist and "Back to Africa" movements in the United States as recent as the 1960s and 70s.


Malcolm X is one of the more famous black nationalists:

 

[Singh]

If blacks where the ones who where rich and powerful like what Whites are now, i am sure some Indians will buy Dark&Lovely cream and try and look as black as possible and call themselves African

The reason Indians want fairer skin is similar to pale white folks buy tanning beds and tanning sprays, why women get breast augmentation, why blacks get hair treatments, why men take steroids.

 

[Singh]

Some members are peeved at me for suggesting that English is a language of knowledge, richer language and Hindi is not. I think the point I was trying to make has been miscontrued and obfuscated.

Language shapes a people's culture, and to suggest that Hindi is a redundant language is akin to rubbishing Indian culture. Neither can an individual hope to easily survive in India without knowing the local language.

However, I have a bone to pick up with those who put Hindi pedestal and ignore English's imprint on our lives. I believe without the knowledge of English a citizen of India will find it hard to prosper and progress (exceptions are there).

In an Indian context, English is lingua intelligentsia.

 

[civfanatic]

Some members are peeved at me for suggesting that English is a language of knowledge, richer language and Hindi is not. I think the point I was trying to make has been miscontrued and obfuscated.

Language shapes a people's culture, and to suggest that Hindi is a redundant language is akin to rubbishing Indian culture. Neither can an individual hope to easily survive in India without knowing the local language.

However, I have a bone to pick up with those who put Hindi pedestal and ignore English's imprint on our lives. I believe without the knowledge of English a citizen of India will find it hard to prosper and progress (exceptions are there).

In an Indian context, English is lingua intelligentsia.

Not to mention that a good grasp of English is vital in order to communicate with intellectuals around the globe, not just India.

 

[Singh]

Not to mention that a good grasp of English is vital in order to communicate with intellectuals around the globe, not just India.

And also domestically for all practical purposes of the internet, higher education, science, technology, law, commerce, literature

 

[The Messiah]

Point being made is not claiming to ban english all together. But rather looking at the psyche of the society when a person who can't speak english properly is laughed at and ridiculed. When english is still spoken to communicate when the entire group's mother tongue is hindi.

No is demanding to ban english or diminish its importance.

 

[Singh]

Point being made is not claiming to ban english all together. But rather looking at the psyche of the society when a person who can't speak english properly is laughed at and ridiculed. When english is still spoken to communicate when the entire group's mother tongue is hindi.

No is demanding to ban english or diminish its importance.

I am sorry but my experiences have been very different from yours.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

The reason Indians want fairer skin is similar to pale white folks buy tanning beds and tanning sprays, why women get breast augmentation, why blacks get hair treatments, why men take steroids.

Not to mention why Whites take sun bath to get tanned skin!! Right from our school days we are all told we have to be someone else, we are compared to the kid who gets more marks or speaks better than us, so we are all taught to be dissatisfied with who we are. There is no one on this planet who likes himself the way he is, everyone wants to be either taller, leaner, have more power, get more influence, be more kinder and saintlier or have fairer or tanner skin, we are taught to feel insecure the way we are. So we seek security in make-ups, titles and job-descriptions. That is how the whole consumer economy and society is run, if we have not noticed it already.

 

[The Messiah]

I am sorry but my experiences have been very different from yours.

I am talking about the elite part of society. Youngsters from well to do families prefer to talk in english even when him and the other person know hindi. I know this because i have experienced this all my life. Even i am forced to speak in english in parties and get togethers because otherwise i'll be considered an illiterate fool. Not that i cant speak english but it feels wrong.

 

[sandeepdg]

In an Indian context, English is lingua intelligentsia.

No one here is diminishing the importance of English ! We all know how important its knowledge is in today's context, not just for India, but for the whole world !

What I and Messiah are trying to point out to other members here, is the cheap mentality prevailing in most big cities that if you don't know English, you are a low-life or a fool and ignorant. That's something I can't accept, because it is a stinking, narrow mentality giving the knowledge of English to be an elitist only domain. People should be educated about the importance of English in the 21st century world, but just because they don't know it already, they should be shooed away !

Furthermore, I would say that English is "a" language intelligentsia, in the global context and not just the Indian one, but it is not the only one, all languages fall in that category which are spoken by people from different regions, religions and cultures since exchange of knowledge is taking place by the medium of different forms of literature and art in those languages between those who speak them.

So a correction is required, "English is a language intelligentsia, but not the only one, but obviously the most important one today".

 

[sandeepdg]

I am talking about the elite part of society. Youngsters from well to do families prefer to talk in english even when him and the other person know hindi. I know this because i have experienced this all my life. Even i am forced to speak in english in parties and get togethers because otherwise i'll be considered an illiterate fool. Not that i cant speak english but it feels wrong.

Mate, I think he is just not getting you and neither are the others !

 

[Ray]

I would hardly call those who know English as a part of 'elite' society.

English is a language of necessity and those who do not know it, naturally fall by the wayside.

It is an issue of supply and demand.

Business is internationally English language driven.

In the olden days, French had more value as an international language and a language for diplomatic exchange.

It got replaced by English as Great Britain's star started ascendancy.

Now, people are changing to American English, because business and hence, money, is US driven. In my opinion, American English is very crude and filthy words and rudeness seems to be the 'in' thing. As you will find words like 'rat's a$$', etc is fashionable to use. And to make it worse, some Indians roll the 'r' and then speaking American English with a local accent and think that they are very 'fancy' and a part of the 'elite'!

So, it is a case of supply and demand.

Nothing elitist about it.

I was just seeing a programme where the MD of a real estate group, all suited and booted with a tie, was speaking in English. If that was English, then English takes a new meaning! True, he has money, but is he the 'elite'. To be the elite, you have to have class too!

Now, going back to the topic, this lady of Indian origin, calling herself 'white' reminds me of the Hindi adage (therefore, I am not the Elite (sic!)) - Kauwa Chale Hans ke Chal.

 

[amitkriit]

I am talking about the elite part of society. Youngsters from well to do families prefer to talk in english even when him and the other person know hindi. I know this because i have experienced this all my life. Even i am forced to speak in english in parties and get togethers because otherwise i'll be considered an illiterate fool. Not that i cant speak english but it feels wrong.

I am an Executive Director, I am in the board of directors, in a mid-sized software firm (Public Limited Company), I am an IIT Kharagpur graduate. Company employs 200 people in India, a few in UK and USA. I still prefer to interact with people in my mother tongue Hindi and my grasp of English is not so good, I never wanted to perfect it no matter where I am. Does that make me a rag-tag low-grade Individual?

As far as my physic goes, I have got brown hair, medium brown eyes and olive skin, does that qualify me as an elite?

 

[sandeepdg]

I am an Executive Director, I am in the board of directors, in a mid-sized software firm (Public Limited Company), I am an IIT Kharagpur graduate. Company employs 200 people in India, a few in UK and USA. I still prefer to interact with people in my mother tongue Hindi and my grasp of English is not so good, I never wanted to perfect it no matter where I am. Does that make me a rag-tag low-grade Individual?

As far as my physic goes, I have got brown hair, medium brown eyes and olive skin, does that qualify me as an elite?

You are taking it in the wrong sense, sir. Please read my comments above. Nobody here is pointing fingers at anything specific or anyone specific. We are just trying to explain a stupid and warped mentality commonly found in our society today, especially in the metros.

I would hardly call those who know English as a part of 'elite' society. English is a language of necessity and those who do not know it, naturally fall by the wayside. It is an issue of supply and demand. Business is internationally English language driven.

I couldn't agree more with you, Ray sir. Anybody who is smart enough to know the value of a language like English would never say that it is an elitist language, but more of a necessity. But, the thing is, some people, especially in big cities, who come from well to do families, and who know as much English, as I know Mandarin, try to pretend in an elitist way when they meet people from some small town or rural folks, and make them feel dumb and call them illiterate fools, just because they can't converse in English, is something I find utterly stupid behavior !

I will give you a simple example, I saw a guy riding a swank BMW 5 series, the other day, near South Extension in Delhi, yelling at a street hawker at traffic light, who unknowingly came in front of his car in English ! And then there's this big fat lady buying vegetables from a roadside hawker in Gurgaon and asking him whether he sells olives and apricots also, and when he gave puzzled expression, she called him a fool ! So now you tell me, who is the real fool here ?

Knowledge of any language is a good thing, but just because the other man doesn't know your language, doesn't give you the right to abuse him, or make fun of him, is the point that I am trying to convey here.

 

[civfanatic]

And then there's this big fat lady buying vegetables from a roadside hawker in Gurgaon and asking him whether he sells olives and apricots also, and when he gave puzzled expression, she called him a fool ! So now you tell me, who is the real fool here ?

Who buys olives and apricots?

 

[Ray]

Who buys olives and apricots?

Those who have cocktails (olives) and those who live in North Indus (apricot)!

And the wannabes shopping at Khan Market!

 

[civfanatic]

Those who have cocktails (olives) and those who live in North Indus (apricot)!

Sir, I have heard that certain parts of Jammu or Ladakh (?) are home to the world's best apricots. Is this true?

Mind you, I've never actually tasted an apricot in my life, so I wouldn't know the difference between a "good" and "bad" apricot.

 

[Singh]

Sir, I have heard that certain parts of Jammu or Ladakh (?) are home to the world's best apricots. Is this true?

Mind you, I've never actually tasted an apricot in my life, so I wouldn't know the difference between a "good" and "bad" apricot.

Afghanistan I think has the best apricots.

 

[tarunraju]

 

[The Messiah]

Mate, I think he is just not getting you and neither are the others !

I think you are correct.

I am an Executive Director, I am in the board of directors, in a mid-sized software firm (Public Limited Company), I am an IIT Kharagpur graduate. Company employs 200 people in India, a few in UK and USA. I still prefer to interact with people in my mother tongue Hindi and my grasp of English is not so good, I never wanted to perfect it no matter where I am. Does that make me a rag-tag low-grade Individual?

As far as my physic goes, I have got brown hair, medium brown eyes and olive skin, does that qualify me as an elite?

Come to delhi i will take you to some parties and get togethers and if you dont speak in fluent english your degrees and qualifications wont hold weight in there eyes. These are generally youngsters who have rich parents and went to some cheap university in london or scotland or in usa because they couldn't get admission in delhi.

I dont think many of you have interacted with these lot.

You are taking it in the wrong sense, sir. Please read my comments above. Nobody here is pointing fingers at anything specific or anyone specific. We are just trying to explain a stupid and warped mentality commonly found in our society today, especially in the metros.

I couldn't agree more with you, Ray sir. Anybody who is smart enough to know the value of a language like English would never say that it is an elitist language, but more of a necessity. But, the thing is, some people, especially in big cities, who come from well to do families, and who know as much English, as I know Mandarin, try to pretend in an elitist way when they meet people from some small town or rural folks, and make them feel dumb and call them illiterate fools, just because they can't converse in English, is something I find utterly stupid behavior !

I will give you a simple example, I saw a guy riding a swank BMW 5 series, the other day, near South Extension in Delhi, yelling at a street hawker at traffic light, who unknowingly came in front of his car in English ! And then there's this big fat lady buying vegetables from a roadside hawker in Gurgaon and asking him whether he sells olives and apricots also, and when he gave puzzled expression, she called him a fool ! So now you tell me, who is the real fool here ?

Knowledge of any language is a good thing, but just because the other man doesn't know your language, doesn't give you the right to abuse him, or make fun of him, is the point that I am trying to convey here.

Ive witnessed this many times.