New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Kchontha]

Until and unless IA is ram down its throat a good quality desi rifle it will continue wasting another decade or so. Look at how MOD had seduced ever reluctant IAF of tejas aircraft but now they have developed a liking of the machine. Same should be done to them.

 

[ezsasa]

That is why i mentioned in my previous post, that if an Indian Rifle can match these foreign ones, the Indian rifle should be chosen.(comparison trials)

It's quite obvious, that IA will not only do prolonged testing in Indian conditions, but also with INDIAN AMMUNITION....What they are doing now is just to shorlist the rifles for these tests.

By the way, none of the rifles i mentioned (excluding Galil ACE), appeared in the trials last time, which was cancelled. Even Tavor 7 is a completely new and diffrent rifle that the TAR 21 / X95 used by IA till now. Tavor 7 uses a Short stroke piston, instead of the AK like long stroke used in the earlier Tavors. So Tavor 7 was never tested unlike the TAR 21 in service with IA.

I think IA already knows,what works and what they want in 5.56x45mm(It can be even INSAS 1C, which is a very good and reliable design).......

It's the 7.62x51mm rifles, they need to shortlist and do detailed trials...which was not done anytime earlier .....again i maybe wrong

I stand corrected on Tavor 7................................... typo

 

[ezsasa]

The army has made up it's mind. It just wants a foreign rifle. No matter whether it performs as well as Indian rifles or whether it could survive the diverse environments IA has to operate in, it just wants a foreign rifle. Otherwise Excalibur is already being used by different armed police forces, JVPC had passed the trials conducted by different forces but they are not good enough for our army who managed to find a dozen faults with them.

And this attitude is prevalent in everything the army does. They accepted TONBO products after they saw them in use by US forces. Guess what the reply was when they approached the IA first? It is seriously deplorable state of affairs in our Army. I think the only solution could be shoving equipment down their throats.

Induction of JVPC is going to be tricky because of it's calibre 5.56 X 30.
anyways procurement process for it's induction is yet to start, let's see what happens when it happens.

 

[Kshithij]

Induction of JVPC is going to be tricky because of it's calibre 5.56 X 30.
anyways procurement process for it's induction is yet to start, let's see what happens when it happens.

Why did these people make 5.56x30 in the first place? Isn't reducing the barrel size a better option? Even better is to use 9mm bullets. The 5.56x30 serves no purpose other than complicate things further. 9mm bullets are anyways made for the service handguns of army as well as police. Logistics could have been greatly saved.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Moreover countries like korea, UAE, Australia are not big time gun manufacturing countries

I can understand about UAE but Korea (here,South Korea,of course) and Australia are not big time gun manufacturers ?

Well these two nation have quite a formidable small arms industries there,especially SoKorea.
South Korea's Daewoo Industries have been manufacturing various domestic as well as licensed produced firearms since quite long.It all started when they received ToT and License to make M16s there,then they started making their own rifles under K-series and since then K-2 Assault Rifle is standard issue rifle in ROK Armed Forces.They also manufacture other kind of firearms.

After Daewoo became bankrupt,Their small arms branch is being owned and run by another industrial group there,S&T Holdings.

Other big industry there involved into Defense is Samsung,of course.We're importing their K-9 SPH,remember ?

Just go to their website and see this impressive catalogue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S&T_Motiv

http://www.sntmotiv.com/eng/business/defense_catalog.html

Similarly,Australians have been in firearms industries since quite long,mostly manufacturing licensed produced L1A1 SLRs,Steyr AUGs and so.

 

[Johny_Baba]

This makes sense to me ; especially after reading the article below.
As per me the Country / Vendor /Platform combination is as below. Again , this is just in interest of sharing and may be inaccurate....Although, i am confused why the original Article names Australia (which does use an advanced version of Styer AUG as their service rifle)......

These are some of the best platforms in world, and in my opinion, if an Indian Rifle can match these, then the Indian product should be adopted...
View attachment 26168

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-under-jv-for-export/articleshow/63753724.cms

Based on your list,here is my recommendations in order..
1.LMT LM8
2.S&T Daewoo K-2C
3.Galil ACE/Tavor 7
4.Steyr AUG A3 (or better,Australian F-90)
5.Caracal CAR 816 / CSR 308
6.Desert Tech MDR

 

[Johny_Baba]

There is Russian alternative, which is as good as Galil Ace. That rifle is AK -103. But it also uses a bit of a lower powered round of 7.62x39. Its predecessor of AK-47 is the most well liked rifle but it is not in Indian Army’s preferred list. Also it cost about $400 and Russians will transfer technology to make it at home. That is not what the Indian Army delegation has been asked to look into.

Ah AK-103 is just 7.62 x 39mm version of Russian AK-74M,while Galil ACE is revision of previous Galil design with modern features and so.

But currently putting it on side,Please give a reply on this point from your paragraph

- Which lower powered 7.62 x 39mm ammunition for AK-103 you're talking bout ? I am not familiar of any such thing so please elaborate,with some sources,of course as i'm eager to know more about it.
As far as i know,AK-103 would fire any 7.62 x 39mm available in market,it's not that different than original AK-47/AKM except some minor modern features.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Why did these people make 5.56x30 in the first place? Isn't reducing the barrel size a better option? Even better is to use 9mm bullets. The 5.56x30 serves no purpose other than complicate things further. 9mm bullets are anyways made for the service handguns of army as well as police. Logistics could have been greatly saved.

We had tried reducing barrel size and making a "carbine" out of standard INSAS assualt rifle but those experiments were not that successful so we dropped it.Issues being high muzzle climb on full auto,high recoil and so.

INSAS Carbine,later Kalantak "Micro Assault Rifle" are prime examples of this.

As coming to 5.56 x 30mm,Due to those issues with shorter barrel carbines they developed this shorter cartridge from taking 5.56 x 45mm M193 as base cartridge and reducing its case length (and some other minor modifications in bullet) that proven to be effective at ~200 m range with much greater penetration than standard 9 x 19mm at same range,and developed Amogh,MSMC / JVPC carbines for that specific cartridge.

Sure,it might create some logistics issues in the army but due to its moderate recoil,higher penetration and so it'll replace 9x19mm "Carbines" in the IA.

Also,9 x 19mm is quite outdated round in terms of performance,as most bulletproof jackets would stop it,but 5.56 x 30mm's better penetration capabilities can be useful in defeating BPJs.

 

[binayak95]

We had tried reducing barrel size and making a "carbine" out of standard INSAS assualt rifle but those experiments were not that successful so we dropped it.Issues being high muzzle climb on full auto,high recoil and so.

INSAS Carbine,later Kalantak "Micro Assault Rifle" are prime examples of this.

As coming to 5.56 x 30mm,Due to those issues with shorter barrel carbines they developed this shorter cartridge from taking 5.56 x 45mm M193 as base cartridge and reducing its case length (and some other minor modifications in bullet) that proven to be effective at ~200 m range with much greater penetration than standard 9 x 19mm at same range,and developed Amogh,MSMC / JVPC carbines for that specific cartridge.

Sure,it might create some logistics issues in the army but due to its moderate recoil,higher penetration and so it'll replace 9x19mm "Carbines" in the IA.

Also,9 x 19mm is quite outdated round in terms of performance,as most bulletproof jackets would stop it,but 5.56 x 30mm's better penetration capabilities can be useful in defeating BPJs.

Creating ad hoc new rounds based on older full power catridges is quite common, your AK round comes from the 7.62x54R Mosin Nagant, the OG assault rifle's 7.92x33 came from the Kar98K.

And 9mm just sucks balls beyond 50-75m engagement, as does the .45ACP. I am surprised it took the firearms industry so long to move to new generation subcalibre rounds such as the 5.7 and the 4.6x30.

 

[devhensh]

I can understand about UAE but Korea (here,South Korea,of course) and Australia are not big time gun manufacturers ?

Well these two nation have quite a formidable small arms industries there,especially SoKorea.

Very True !!! Especially true in case of South Korea......According to me South Korea is only behind USA, Russia, Germany in overall R&D and defence production....South Korea has become another Japan and it's beating Japan in many areas (Read companies like Samsung, LG, Hyundai and many more)...

Coming back to guns.....According to an Ex Marine(father of my coworker)...the Korean K2 Assault rifle series is FAR more reliable and MUCH better overall than the M16 series (when it was standard issue in both US & Korean forces)....and he has actually used both extensively, while serving in Korea.....Speaks volumes, when an American says something is better than M16 (specially a Marine)...

By the way.....Korean Forces(just like Isreal) were heavily dependent on US for all Armaments( e.g they used to Licence produce M16).... Then private industry stepped in and they brought in lots of R&D while working closely with Army...the result is for the world to see....They have world beating platforms like "K9 Thunder" Howitzers and K2C and K11 Assault rifles........Almost each and every weapon system they produce is World Class !!!........

I seriously hope, we have such private/public sector arms industry in India too(which works closely with IA/IAF/IN)...

 

[binayak95]

Very True !!! Especially true in case of South Korea......According to me South Korea is only behind USA, Russia, Germany in overall R&D and defence production....South Korea has become another Japan and it's beating Japan in many areas (Read companies like Samsung, LG, Hyundai and many more)...

Coming back to guns.....According to an Ex Marine(father of my coworker)...the Korean K2 Assault rifle series is FAR more reliable and MUCH better overall than the M16 series (when it was standard issue in both US & Korean forces)....and he has actually used both extensively, while serving in Korea.....Speaks volumes, when an American says something is better than M16 (specially a Marine)... : )

By the way.....Korean Forces(just like Isreal) were heavily dependent on US for all Armaments( e.g they used to Licence produce M16).... Then private industry stepped in and they brought in lots of R&D while working closely with Army...the result is for the world to see....They have world beating platforms like "K9 Thunder" Howitzers and K2C and K11 Assault rifles........Almost each and every weapon system they produce is World Class !!!........

I seriously hope, we have such private/public sector arms industry in India too(which works closely with IA/IAF/IN)...

The K11 especially is something else, a combination 20mm cannon and 5.56 AR is just WTF?!

PS: Seems like HEAVILY inspired from the X29 OICW project, if you catch mah drift XD

 

[devhensh]

The K11 especially is something else, a combination 20mm cannon and 5.56 AR is just WTF?!

PS: Seems like HEAVILY inspired from the X29 OICW project, if you catch mah drift XD

Indeed and what it can do is Frightening !

Imagine two armies hunkered down in bunkers and behind barriers......Then one Army gets hold of a Rifle system carried by one soldier , which fires smart projectiles (20 mm programmable grenades, are electronically set to explode for airburst at predefined ranges)......That is a force multiplier..Period !!!

By the way, one of India's Neighbour has a similar system........

 

[binayak95]

Indeed and what it can do is Frightening !

Imagine two armies hunkered down in bunkers and behind barriers......Then one Army gets hold of a Rifle system carried by one soldier , which fires smart projectiles (20 mm programmable grenades, are electronically set to explode for airburst at predefined ranges)......That is a force multiplier..Period !!!

By the way, one of India's Neighbour has a similar system........

I dont know man, I would take a 40mm UBGL anyday and lob it over walls and trenches then have to explain how to program a 20mm fuse to air burst at a particular distance to your average infantry jock (who are brave and skilled, but still...) Besides just how much fragmentation will a 20mm round do?

 

[Kshithij]

Indeed and what it can do is Frightening !

Imagine two armies hunkered down in bunkers and behind barriers......Then one Army gets hold of a Rifle system carried by one soldier , which fires smart projectiles (20 mm programmable grenades, are electronically set to explode for airburst at predefined ranges)......That is a force multiplier..Period !!!

By the way, one of India's Neighbour has a similar system........

20mm grenade is not a suitable size. 20mm is 2cm. If we consider that a good chunk of the outer space is prefragmented metal, and some more space for electronics, there isn't much room left for gun powder.

Also, wars involve more quicker firing. There isn't much time to programme a gun on the field everytime for different scenarios

 

[devhensh]

I dont know man, I would take a 40mm UBGL anyday and lob it over walls and trenches then have to explain how to program a 20mm fuse to air burst at a particular distance to your average infantry jock (who are brave and skilled, but still...) Besides just how much fragmentation will a 20mm round do?

Good Question ....As they say " Horses for Courses".....40mm UBGL is a general infantry weapon... a Hammer....whereas this is like a Surgical Scalpel...Look at the vedio below from 3.53 and you'll get your answer...Few points of clarification .

1. As far as i know, these 20mm HE rounds can detonate on direct impact or programmed for airburst..The programming part is done using a Electronic Fire Control, with an simple GUI ...If our Jawans can use Smart phones and Night vision...they can be very easily trained to use these....

Moreover, this a direct by product of OICW(Objective Individual Combat Weapon program), where one or two of such riflers will be part of highly mobile / highly specialized teams......Not a general Infantry issue at all.

2. 20mm HE rounds are very very effective both as a Antimaterial Round as well as a Antipersonal Round (Grenade)...That is why they are used both as Canon Round as well as in rifles like Antimaterial Rifles (Denel NTW-20 (20×82mm)......It has range advantage over 40mm and accuracy ...

Carrying such a powerful Cannon round in a magzine fed portable package itself is a major force multiplier...Programeable Airburts is a additional benefit, which wont be required in most cases, but may come handy in specialized scenarios......

Won't add more as don't want to deviate/digress from the main topic of thread...

 

[devhensh]

Quick correction ....the round used in K11 is 20x30mm and diffrent modes of operation are as below:
Two conventional 20 mm shells either detonate immediately on impact or on a timed fuse after impact. A third type of shell is controlled by the weapon’s integrated electronics to explode a few meters from the target, yielding an air burst effect capable of killing targets within a 6m area and seriously wounding those within an 8 m area

 

[Kshithij]

Quick correction ....the round used in K11 is 20x30mm and diffrent modes of operation are as below:
Two conventional 20 mm shells either detonate immediately on impact or on a timed fuse after impact. A third type of shell is controlled by the weapon’s integrated electronics to explode a few meters from the target, yielding an air burst effect capable of killing targets within a 6m area and seriously wounding those within an 8 m area

The air burst mode is nothing but pellet gun or shot gun cartridge bursting mid air. Without a proper barrel to channel the energy what you get is something as shown in the below video (for shortcut, watch after 5:00 min)

There is a reason why no one else makes such INNOVATIVE guns.

 

[devhensh]

The air burst mode is nothing but pellet gun or shot gun cartridge bursting mid air. Without a proper barrel to channel the energy what you get is something as shown in the below video (for shortcut, watch after 5:00 min)

There is a reason why no one else makes such INNOVATIVE guns.

Have you even read my post !!! If yes , why are u just talking about AIRBURST ? Didn't i mention that these rounds work equally well in direct impact mode ?do you have any understanding what a 20mm round in direct or indirect mode can do?

And a 20x30mm HE round is a pellet gun to you ? Have you even heard of OICW(Objective Individual Combat Weapon program) ..... So the US and South Korean Govenments were fools to spend millions of $ on this ???

I didn't even start about K11 or airburst ...The main topic was assualt rifles(and i just replied to somebody's question here)... My agenda here is not to negate other member's opinions...but to share ...so i won't be derailing this thread by responding to you...

 

[devhensh]

Deleting duplicate post ! 30 charatersssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

 

[Hari Sud]

Various rifle bullets.