New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Bhadra]

What, not long ago, there was a discussion here in DFI on INSAS vs QBZ-95, I am just about convinced that INSAS is top-class, here comes this news! What I learn from this news is your free media indeed works, and/but if you are over-patriotic, you might be as blind as those fed by controlled media. BTW, instead of shopping for a new rifle, why don't you improve INSAS by making, say, INSAS Mk II?

DRDO is working on all improvements and would compete with other 40 companies to offer its system. Let them be competitive rather than being offered free keptive market.

INSAS indeed is not that bad but quality control is like that of China. If it has defects in the cold, how will Indian soldiers fight with PLA who keeps threatening India five times in a day and keep reminding India of 1962 ? There are some basic requirements which are fundamental.

 

[lemontree]

To be frank, the INSAS is not that bad as it is made out to be by the media.

Sir, I agree with you. The INSAS is a good rifle and it is going through its growth pains. The M-16 also took about 22 odd years to rectify it defects. As you said we need to ensure proper QC, bring in a consultant if we dont have the know how.

- If the 5.56 mm NATO round is found to be inadequate for COIN, then re-barrel the rifles for 7.62 x 39mm (AK-47 ammo), they are small light and have the same ergonomic advantages as the 5.56 mm round.
- provide reflex sights to improve accuracy issues.
- audit the production process to identify manufacture process flaws. etc.
- re-access the costing of the weapon.

The OFB should have modified the SLR for 5.56 mm or 7.62 x 39mm. Also they should have taken a leaf out of H&K for developing the carbine. The MP5 is a minature version of the G3 rifle. We could have done the samething and saved tons of money and heartburn.

It appears that OFB chaps make their careers out of inefficiency.

 

[ALBY]

Sir, I agree with you. The INSAS is a good rifle and it is going through its growth pains. The M-16 also took about 22 odd years to rectify it defects. As you said we need to ensure proper QC, bring in a consultant if we dont have the know how.

- If the 5.56 mm NATO round is found to be inadequate for COIN, then re-barrel the rifles for 7.62 x 39mm (AK-47 ammo), they are small light and have the same ergonomic advantages as the 5.56 mm round.
- provide reflex sights to improve accuracy issues.
- audit the production process to identify manufacture process flaws. etc.
- re-access the costing of the weapon.

The OFB should have modified the SLR for 5.56 mm or 7.62 x 39mm. Also they should have taken a leaf out of H&K for developing the carbine. The MP5 is a minature version of the G3 rifle. We could have done the samething and saved tons of money and heartburn.

It appears that OFB chaps make their careers out of inefficiency.

converting or making insas variants chambered for M43 round maybe a matter of national pride but considering from the economic view it is not at all feasible as a romanian or bulgarian AKM costs only maximum 7000-10000 rupees(maximum with out optics) but a 5.56 insas costs 25000 rupees so converting it for m43 round wouldn't change the cost.we couldn't guarantee on its efficiency too.
the best possible way is to induct more bulgarian akms which are cheap to the CT forces or restart the production of AK7 which was halted after objections from mikhael kalashnikov.

 

[Ray]

Sir, I agree with you. The INSAS is a good rifle and it is going through its growth pains. The M-16 also took about 22 odd years to rectify it defects. As you said we need to ensure proper QC, bring in a consultant if we dont have the know how.

- If the 5.56 mm NATO round is found to be inadequate for COIN, then re-barrel the rifles for 7.62 x 39mm (AK-47 ammo), they are small light and have the same ergonomic advantages as the 5.56 mm round.
- provide reflex sights to improve accuracy issues.
- audit the production process to identify manufacture process flaws. etc.
- re-access the costing of the weapon.

The OFB should have modified the SLR for 5.56 mm or 7.62 x 39mm. Also they should have taken a leaf out of H&K for developing the carbine. The MP5 is a minature version of the G3 rifle. We could have done the samething and saved tons of money and heartburn.

It appears that OFB chaps make their careers out of inefficiency.

You are 100% correct in your analysis of the problem and its rectification.

I was seeing a programme yesterday on the 10 best tanks in the world.

While each one was said to be terrific, there was always the last word on how it could have been better if..........!

Nothing can be perfect!

 

[Ray]

converting or making insas variants chambered for M43 round maybe a matter of national pride but considering from the economic view it is not at all feasible as a romanian or bulgarian AKM costs only maximum 7000-10000 rupees(maximum with out optics) but a 5.56 insas costs 25000 rupees so converting it for m43 round wouldn't change the cost.we couldn't guarantee on its efficiency too.
the best possible way is to induct more bulgarian akms which are cheap to the CT forces or restart the production of AK7 which was halted after objections from mikhael kalashnikov.

What would be the guarantee that these foreign weapons will be perfect?

That is the million dollar issue.

This is the huge dilemma that seems to seize those who are to make this decision........and then they are worried that if the purchase turns out to be a lemon, then there will be a huge uproar that money has been made!

Neither money was taken to feather one's nest and yet living with a slur till the end of one's physical life!

 

[Bhadra]

What would be the guarantee that these foreign weapons will be perfect?

That is the million dollar issue.

This is the huge dilemma that seems to seize those who are to make this decision........and then they are worried that if the purchase turns out to be a lemon, then there will be a huge uproar that money has been made!



Neither money was taken to feather one's nest and yet living with a slur till the end of one's physical life!

What is the ultimate test for a weapon system?

Catch hold of a soldier going out for a patrol or ambush and tell him to pick up a weapon from AK and INSAS. What will the soldier pick up?

It is not the intellectual discussion but the faith of soldiers that matters. That faith has not been thrust down on them by the officers and the generals but by themselves. In fact it is that faith which shakes the generals and they then are forces to ask for better.

Anything wrong in that !

 

[lemontree]

converting or making insas variants chambered for M43 round maybe a matter of national pride...

There is no pride involved. We decided to use the 7.62 mm NATO round earlier as our neighbour used the M43. We switched to the 5.56 mm in accordance with the new military doctrine "to wound" and not kill, The IA does not do things for pride or vanity, but based on military doctrine being followed.

but considering from the economic view it is not at all feasible as a romanian or bulgarian AKM costs only maximum 7000-10000 rupees(maximum with out optics) but a 5.56 insas costs 25000 rupees so converting it for m43 round wouldn't change the cost.we couldn't guarantee on its efficiency too.

The article at the start of this thread mentions INR 2800/- for a Bulgarian AKM. NORINCO sells them for about INR 5000/-. The OFB also has a cost of about 8000/- per INSAS rifle. Although some media sources quote 16000/-, which may not be true.

the best possible way is to induct more bulgarian akms which are cheap to the CT forces or restart the production of AK7 which was halted after objections from mikhael kalashnikov

It would be better to spend money in R&D and improve system that we have, Just like China has done with the AK-56/T-56, evolved into the T-81, and then inovated to the QBZ-95.

 

[Ray]

What is the ultimate test for a weapon system?

Catch hold of a soldier going out for a patrol or ambush and tell him to pick up a weapon from AK and INSAS. What will the soldier pick up?

It is not the intellectual discussion but the faith of soldiers that matters. That faith has not been thrust down on them by the officers and the generals but by themselves. In fact it is that faith which shakes the generals and they then are forces to ask for better.

Anything wrong in that !

I think there is a misconception.

Having been a soldier, I reckon I should know.

And what is more I was recently at the border in J&K (where we are in eyeball to eyeball contact and there was firing going on, just to inform you) even though I am not wearing the uniform now. So, even when not in uniform, we identify with our troops and our units and their hardships and travails. Danger be damned is what normally an officer should feel! I feel that danger is no big deal and so do the vast majority!

I am sure you will agree that officers body is not ordained by God to be bullet proof. As also that the officer is known to lead from the front.

So, they are equally concerned and so none should go by any wrong impression that soldiers alone brave the dangers!

And Generals are no fools either to equip the Army with junk. If an operation fails, then his head will be up at the chopping block. They also have ambition as the next man Jack and also have mouths to feed back at home!

These populist ideas of jawans being the only one getting the wrong end of the stick is OK for political brownie points for the media and the citizenry fed on all these populist ideas. In our army we share and share alike the dangers and discomforts. Ranks play no role.

What shakes the Generals is will the weapon translate the requirements of the Doctrine that is formulated to meet the Threat Perception.

 

[lemontree]

What is the ultimate test for a weapon system?

Catch hold of a soldier going out for a patrol or ambush and tell him to pick up a weapon from AK and INSAS. What will the soldier pick up?

I would pick up the INSAS. Reason - it is more accurate. An appurture sight is better that the open V sight of the AK.
Soldiers are issued weapons as per the role they are in. RR battalions use AKs, as they are in COIN, they need a compact, rapid firing assault rifle. Hence the were equiped with AKs.

Standard infantry units have a different role to play. COIN is what they do as a temporary role. Their main adversary is a uniformed army across the border, and hence they are equiped to face him.

The 3 round burst in the INSAS is a very good option. Infact we trained troops to fire short, economical 2 round bursts to converve ammo and to ensure accuracy in the days before the INSAS.

 

[p2prada]

There is no pride involved. We decided to use the 7.62 mm NATO round earlier as our neighbour used the M43. We switched to the 5.56 mm in accordance with the new military doctrine "to wound" and not kill, The IA does not do things for pride or vanity, but based on military doctrine being followed.

These populist ideas of jawans being the only one getting the wrong end of the stick is OK for political brownie points for the media and the citizenry fed on all these populist ideas. In our army we share and share alike the dangers and discomforts. Ranks play no role.

What shakes the Generals is will the weapon translate the requirements of the Doctrine that is formulated to meet the Threat Perception.

Pride is a negative mindset when it comes to defence procurements. However there is no cure for it in the Civilian circle except for education. It oh so easily blinds to the point where irrational thoughts are the first that comes to the mind.

 

[Ray]

The fact that the IA rejects, inspite of the GOI pressures, so many lemons produced by the DRDO is adequate proof that national pride to save the Govt OFBs or DRDO is not a criteria.

Saving the national sovereignty with correct equipment that translates the Doctrines and the Nation is what guides the weapon selection.

 

[Ray]

However there is no cure for it in the Civilian circle except for education

p2prada,

The AG's Branch has a programme where school boys are taken to the front so that they have a real feel of the Army.

It is a part of the Op Sadbhavna (and it is not confined to J&K alone).

Contact AG's Branch and ask them to take some of the boys from your school!

 

[p2prada]

The fact that the IA rejects, inspite of the GOI pressures, so many lemons produced by the DRDO is adequate proof that national pride to save the Govt OFBs or DRDO is not a criteria.

Saving the national sovereignty with correct equipment that translates the Doctrines and the Nation is what guides the weapon selection.

Sir how has the OFB made grenades worked out for the Army?

Also I was referring to how the media tries to paint Generals as sold to the Russians and whatnot every time the Army rejects DRDO made items. I am sure no respectable army in the world thinks about pride when procuring weapons.

p2prada,

The AG's Branch has a programme where school boys are taken to the front so that they have a real feel of the Army.

It is a part of the Op Sadbhavna (and it is not confined to J&K alone).

Contact AG's Branch and ask them to take some of the boys from your school!

That's brilliant. I did not know this.

Although I wonder what the parents will say.

 

[Galaxy]

Army in the market for new assault rifles

 

[lemontree]

Sir how has the OFB made grenades worked out for the Army?

If I may answer this - the HE 36 grenade being used in the IA is a WWII vintage weapon. It is crude in comparison to the grenades being used by China and Pakistan and even the terrorists. But it is an affective weapon, provided one cleans the oil (from the fuse chamber), before priming the grenade (meaning putting the fuze in the grenade).

We need to get rid of it fast, in favour of a better model.

 

[Iamanidiot]

If I may answer this - the HE 36 grenade being used in the IA is a WWII vintage weapon. It is crude in comparison to the grenades being used by China and Pakistan and even the terrorists. But it is an affective weapon, provided one cleans the oil (from the fuse chamber), before priming the grenade (meaning putting the fuze in the grenade).

We need to get rid of it fast, in favour of a better model.

Sir,Is Privatization of OFB's a good idea

 

[lemontree]

Sir,Is Privatization of OFB's a good idea

No the answer is to give them a domsestic competitor, i.e let the private industry enter defence production. If the OFB's dont give good products they will die their own deaths.

 

[Bhadra]

When it comes to real combat the soldiers must have faith on their weapons. Just see this vidieo and see for yourselves how many American soldiers are using AKs.
[http://www.VVVVVVVVVVV/forums/strat...-pakistan-says-no-us-pressure-fm-khar-3.html]

 

[Bhadra]

Sorry folks, the vidieo link is this:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPS-Bllcrg]

Just see the weapons in the hands of the US troops.

 

[ace009]

So, is IA looking at full length assault rifles still? Why not only shop for Bullpups, since they are lighter, smaller and easier to carry?

And with the doctrine of using the 5.56 mm rounds, the bullpups are as effective as the regular Assault Rifles ...