Naysayers call for shunning nuke energy

pmaitra

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Location of a plant depend on many factors.
1. location should be such that there is not much loss in transmission. ie near places where demands are high.
Transfer power by increasing Voltage and reducing Current and you can cut down losses to a negligible amount. I don't buy this argument.

2. easy connectivity and good location as there are very highly skilled staffs and they just wont into a jungle to work.
Build a city or chose an existing city or town at the edge of a jungle, and use dedicated transportation for the staff. I personally know people traveling from Kalyan to Mumbai everyday and returning home. If transportation is dedicated, traveling time will be much less. Go into jungle everyday, work, and return to the city.

3. If you notice locations all nuclera plants are located near some major water sources . power plants need huge amount of water . In case of normal power plants requirements can be fulfilled by creating artificial cooling pond. There may be few complications in summer as water level will go down. In case of nuclear power plant they need continuous supply of water and there cannot be any compromise on that . Nuclear power plant cannot be shutdown like other plants .
I do notice these locations are near water source. I also notice that they are located in high population zones. There are rivers in many of the white zones. If there isn't one near any site, a canal can be built or a lake/reservoir created. Moreover, being close to the sea also means being a primary target of Tsunamis.

We have done a good job at Rawatbhata. Low risk seismic zone, far away from the sea (Chambal is proximal) and a population at the nearest city, Kota being 996,899 (2001). I don't see why we cannot do it. I want Nuclear Power too. India needs it. My priority is to keep these N-plants away from:
  • Densely populated regions.
  • High or moderate seismic zone regions.

P.S.: Kalapakkam and Kudankulam are located at a place that has seen the devastating effects of Tsunamis. We should do the best we can. We cannot estimate a natural calamity, regardless of the tolerance limit defined in IAEA safeguards. Better go beyond these safeguards if it is possible.
 
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Bangalorean

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India can not afford the death of millions of poor to run the ACs of few thousand rich.If india really wants the solution then go for gas fired power plants.
The problem with socialist regressive thinking is, it assumes that there will always be "few thousand rich" and "millions of poor". No talk, no thought process, of lifting those millions out of poverty. Doing that actually requires infrastructure, energy, power, etc. etc. etc. How can you even say, "if India really wants"?! :rolleyes:

And I hope you know that gas is yet another non-renewable fossil fuel, and devilishly expensive to transport and distribute, not to mention, produce power on an ongoing basis out of it. And what's with assuming that we will have massive earthquakes, they will happen at the site of our plants, the plants will not withstand it, there will be leaks, and millions will die?!! :crazy:

We need to move on, and ensure safeguards. There is no other viable option. Pay some attention to the discussion that Pmaitra and others are having on this page, with regard to various options, and so on. Talk solutions.

Go for IPI and TAPI.
Yeah, right. So that the pawkees can hold us by the balls whenever the next round of "tensions" start. And moreover, what's to prevent an illiterate Abdul from blowing himself up in the Khidmat of Jeeehad to get his 72? This pipeline funda won't work.
 
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LurkerBaba

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Transfer power by increasing Voltage and reducing Current and you can cut down losses to a negligible amount. I don't buy this argument.
Come on ! This is basic planning. Losses are always there and they are not negligible even in HVDC transmission lines. Long HVDC routes are used only when the power source is fixed and can't be put near a population center i.e hydroelectric power


I do notice these locations are near water source. I also notice that they are located in high population zones. There are rivers in many of the white zones. If there isn't one near any site, a canal can be built or a lake/reservoir created. Moreover, being close to the sea also means being a primary target of Tsunamis.
No point in wasting fresh potable water when sea water is freely available
 
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pmaitra

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Come on ! This is basic planning. Losses are always there and they are not negligible even in HVDC transmission lines. Long HVDC routes are used only when the power source is fixed and can't be put near a population center i.e hydroelectric power
All right, we've had enough of this usage of subjective adjectives, and I am the one who started it by using adjectives like 'negligible'. Now, let's get down to some math:

High-Voltage Transmission Lines

So we now finally come to the topic of this page: the transport of large amounts of electrical power over long distances. This is done with high-voltage transmission lines, and the question is: why high voltage? It certainly has a negative safety aspect, since a low voltage line wouldn't be harmful (you can put your hands on a 12 V car battery, for example, you won't even feel it; but make sure you don't put metal across the terminals, you'll get a huge current and a nasty spark!). Electric energy is transported across the countryside with high-voltage lines because the line losses are much smaller than with low-voltage lines.

All wires currently used have some resistance (the development of high-temperature superconductors will probably change this some day). Let's call the total resistance of the transmission line leading from a power station to your local substation R. Let's also say the local community demands a power P=IV from that substation. This means the current drawn by the substation is I=P/V and the higher the transmission line voltage, the smaller the current. The line loss is given by Ploss=I²R, or, substituting for I,

Ploss = P²R/V²

Since P is fixed by community demand, and R is as small as you can make it (using big fat copper cable, for example), line loss decreases strongly with increasing voltage. The reason is simply that you want the smallest amount of current that you can use to deliver the power P. Another important note: the loss fraction

Ploss/P = PR/V²

increases with increasing load P: power transmission is less efficient at times of higher demand. Again, this is because power is proportional to current but line loss is proportional to current squared. Line loss can be quite large over long distances, up to 30% or so. By the way, line loss power goes into heating the transmission line cable which, per meter length, isn't very much heat.


Source: http://www.bsharp.org/physics/transmission
Note the text and equation highlighted in red. If power is constant, transmission line resistance is constant, then the loss fraction goes down dramatically with increase in voltage (and decrease in current). This decrease is not linear, but exponential. Therefore, the following statement is proven (yes, loss fraction can be made into a 'negligible' value):

Transfer power by increasing Voltage and reducing Current and you can cut down losses to a negligible amount.




No point in wasting fresh potable water when sea water is freely available
I am not going to assume anything and this could be purely coincidential, however, I do see a connection between what you are saying about sea-water and this news article: Japan authorities inject water at nuclear plant, relieving pressure.

I am no expert, but as far as I know, saline water is not directly used in a Nuclear Reactor and has to be processed (correct me if I am wrong). Moreover, usage of saline water for instances like the one above happens only in disaster situations. Now, whether saline water can be used or not is not the point. The point is that even if we need to have a good supply of water somewhere inland, we can draw them from rivers, build reservoirs and dig canals. If Indian Railways could lay railway tracks all over the country, if VSNL along with other major telecom companies, Sprint being one of them, could lay optical-fibre cables from India to Canada then how difficult is it to build a canal to supply water to these N-Plants?

Kindly note that there are plenty of examples of nuclear reactors that are away from the sea. Also note that sea is not the only source of water. Finally, inland water is not necessarily fresh and potable and you can look up sub-surface pollution and arsenic poisoning to verify that, but I won't dwell on it much because then we will go off on a tangent. Some examples with a few maps: List of nuclear reactors.

In North Carolina, 2 out of 3 N-plants are away from the sea and you can verify it here. You can also see the list of US N-Plants.

Reminder: This discussion started with me expressing reservations about not a single of the proposed sites being in the low seismic zone (white). I am doing this so that readers keep it in mind what I am trying to say (see below).

Whoever's bright decision was this map (refer to the stars)? Not a single of the proposed sites are in the white zones!
 

nitesh

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I am sorry I don't see your point. What are you trying to say? When we have least active zones (white) available, why go for moderately active zones (yellow)? Why so? When we have better options (white zones) available, why are we choosing an option that is relatively worse than the white zones? I makes absolutely no sense to me.
No, it is not about only setting in safest zones besides safest zones only suggests that high magnitude earth quakes are a rarity there not a guarantee that they will not come, also it is about setting up in zones which will allow the cheapest set up (the reactor vessels are imported and they need to be transported to the place where it is set up).
 

nitesh

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pmaita, you are raising valid points, but changing the whole system of power transmission which is currently there will be a daunting task to say at least :)
 

LurkerBaba

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All right, we've had enough of this usage of subjective adjectives, and I am the one who started it by using adjectives like 'negligible'. Now, let's get down to some math:

High-Voltage Transmission Lines

.......

All wires currently used have some resistance (the development of high-temperature superconductors will probably change this some day). Let's call the total resistance of the transmission line leading from a power station to your local substation R. Let's also say the local community demands a power P=IV from that substation. This means the current drawn by the substation is I=P/V and the higher the transmission line voltage, the smaller the current. The line loss is given by Ploss=I²R, or, substituting for I,

Ploss = P²R/V²

......


Note the text and equation highlighted in red. If power is constant, transmission line resistance is constant, then the loss fraction goes down dramatically with increase in voltage (and decrease in current). This decrease is not linear, but exponential. Therefore, the following statement is proven (yes, loss fraction can be made into a 'negligible' value):
I'm doing engineering, I know about ohm's law and ohmic losses.

Ohmic is just one of the many losses in HVDC, others include dielectric ones (due to the insulation) plus losses in the transformers (when the voltage is stepped up/stepped down). Add them all up and there is a substantial loss during transmission

I am no expert, but as far as I know, saline water is not directly used in a Nuclear Reactor and has to be processed (correct me if I am wrong). Moreover, usage of saline water for instances like the one above happens only in disaster situations. Now, whether saline water can be used or not is not the point. The point is that even if we need to have a good supply of water somewhere inland, we can draw them from rivers, build reservoirs and dig canals. If Indian Railways could lay railway tracks all over the country, if VSNL along with other major telecom companies, Sprint being one of them, could lay optical-fibre cables from India to Canada then how difficult is it to build a canal to supply water to these N-Plants?
Saline water is not used directly in the reactor, but in the heat exchanger

for example:



The secondary fluid will be seawater, the fluid in orange would be the one used in the reactor
 
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pmaitra

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No, it is not about only setting in safest zones besides safest zones only suggests that high magnitude earth quakes are a rarity there not a guarantee that they will not come, also it is about setting up in zones which will allow the cheapest set up (the reactor vessels are imported and they need to be transported to the place where it is set up).
Yes, I thought about that and transporting nuclear fuel inland and extricating the waste therefrom can be challenging as well. It is true that there is no guarantee that low seismic zones will not have high magnitude earthquakes, but again, that is how decisions are made based on probability theory (Maximum A-Posteriori Estimate or MAP).

pmaita, you are raising valid points, but changing the whole system of power transmission which is currently there will be a daunting task to say at least :)
Yes, I agree, the current setup cannot be changed easily.
 
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pmaitra

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I'm doing engineering, I know about ohm's law and ohmic losses.

Ohmic is just one of the many losses in HVDC, others include dielectric ones (due to the insulation) plus losses in the transformers (when the voltage is stepped up/stepped down). Add them all up and there is a substantial loss during transmission
True. Yes, step-up/down causes loss, and I remember eddy currents being one of them and dielectric losses due to high frequency, but then you can tell me more about dielectric losses because I am interested.

P.S.: Off-topic, could you explain the relationship between form factor and most voltage ratings being multiples of 11? Thanks.

Saline water is not used directly in the reactor, but in the heat exchanger

for example:



The secondary fluid will be seawater, the fluid in orange would be the one used in the reactor
Thanks for the image. I actually read a book from MIR Publishers (I cannot remember the name) that talked about building N-Reactors. Although technology today has advanced a lot, that book explained all kinds of reactors (water cooled, liquid metal cooled etc..), including the proposed designs in the early 80s.
 
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SHASH2K2

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Transfer power by increasing Voltage and reducing Current and you can cut down losses to a negligible amount. I don't buy this argument.
I am not here to sell anything . I know how efficient our power transmission systems are .
check this

Only exception is Tamilnadu which has efficiency of about 90 % .

P.S.: Kalapakkam and Kudankulam are located at a place that has seen the devastating effects of Tsunamis. We should do the best we can. We cannot estimate a natural calamity, regardless of the tolerance limit defined in IAEA safeguards. Better go beyond these safeguards if it is possible.
yet those plants were safe . Problem with Japan reactors was earthquake damaging cooling systems not the Tsunami.
 

pmaitra

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I am not here to sell anything . I know how efficient our power transmission systems are .
check this

Only exception is Tamilnadu which has efficiency of about 90 % .
Never thought or implied that you were selling anything. I am questioning those who chose not to include any proposed N-plant in the white zone, I am not questioning you. BTW, Thanks for the information.

yet those plants were safe .
I am aware of that. So what is the conclusion? Is it that if there is another earthquake and tsunami, these plants will remain safe? I don't agree with that assumption.

Problem with Japan reactors was earthquake damaging cooling systems not the Tsunami.
Earthquakes and tsunamis are related. Check this out: Tsunami Geology - What Causes a Tsunami?

If there is an earthquake near a coastal N-reactor in the sea, it will have effects both from the earthquake itself and the tsunami from that earthquake. The tsunami may not be able to crack the concrete containment shield of the reactor, but the earthquake might, and then a huge wall of water, i.e. tsunami will simply sweep across spreading radioactive material all over the place.
 

LurkerBaba

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True. Yes, step-up/down causes loss, and I remember eddy currents being one of them and dielectric losses due to high frequency, but then you can tell me more about dielectric losses because I am interested.
Frequency doesn't play a role here, because Direct Current is used in High Voltage transmission. My mistake I should've used dielectric leakage rather than losses
 

pmaitra

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Frequency doesn't play a role here, because Direct Current is used in High Voltage transmission. My mistake I should've used dielectric leakage rather than losses
Oh yeah, that was silly of me as well. Electrons flow in alternating back and forth directions in alternating current while in direct it flows in one direction.

Please answer my other question.
 

SHASH2K2

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Earthquakes and tsunamis are related. Check this out: Tsunami Geology - What Causes a Tsunami?

If there is an earthquake near a coastal N-reactor in the sea, it will have effects both from the earthquake itself and the tsunami from that earthquake. The tsunami may not be able to crack the concrete containment shield of the reactor, but the earthquake might, and then a huge wall of water, i.e. tsunami will simply sweep across spreading radioactive material all over the place.
Earthquake and Tsunami are both interrelated yet their effects are different . In zone 2-3 you will not get earthquake of 8.8 intensity it will be maximum of 6 . All those nuclear power plants are built with capacity to take earthquake of magnitude 7.5 at least . Reactors which were damaged in Japan were built 40 years ago and construction technology is much more developed now . Also now some extra precautions will be taken while building those reactors and I am sure they will be much better than what we are seeing now.
 

LurkerBaba

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Oh yeah, that was silly of me as well. Electrons flow in alternating back and forth directions in alternating current while in direct it flows in one direction.

Please answer my other question.
As for your second question, I didn't remember any relationship between form factor and voltage ratings. Then again I'm doing engineering but not Electrical Engineering ;)

However, Google gave me this bit of info

With AC power systems, a factor was arrived at – relating the RMS value and the average value, called Form Factor, which is the ratio of RMS value to the Average value, which for a sinusoidal wave form was about 1.1. When the voltage was to be transformed, it is easy to have a whole number for the turns ratio of the transformer and hence all subsequent AC voltages became multiples of 11.
 

pmaitra

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Earthquake and Tsunami are both interrelated yet their effects are different . In zone 2-3 you will not get earthquake of 8.8 intensity it will be maximum of 6 . All those nuclear power plants are built with capacity to take earthquake of magnitude 7.5 at least . Reactors which were damaged in Japan were built 40 years ago and construction technology is much more developed now . Also now some extra precautions will be taken while building those reactors and I am sure they will be much better than what we are seeing now.
That is exactly what I am looking forward to. Although I still do not know why there are no new proposed plants in the white zone, I don't want to keep playing the broken record. The more robust our N-Plants are, the better is it going to be. We saw what happened in Bhopal (Union Carbide). If there is a nuclear counterpart, it is going to be a disaster, not for a week or a month, but for hundreds of years, for generations.
 

pmaitra

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As for your second question, I didn't remember any relationship between form factor and voltage ratings. Then again I'm doing engineering but not Electrical Engineering ;)

However, Google gave me this bit of info
Ok, thanks a bunch. I remember that now. It's crystal clear. :)
 

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We should also stop rail, road, air transport as so many accidents are causes and take away lives. Ridiculous are these naysayers. Instead we have to look at better safety standards and also have emergency setup in place and redundant at that so that any eventuality can be taken care of.
Indian reactors survived the Bhuj quake and the IO tsunami. That should be a heartening factor and a point from which to work on.
 

nitesh

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Yes, I thought about that and transporting nuclear fuel inland and extricating the waste therefrom can be challenging as well. It is true that there is no guarantee that low seismic zones will not have high magnitude earthquakes, but again, that is how decisions are made based on probability theory (Maximum A-Posteriori Estimate or MAP).
The overall economy of running the reactor can be sidelined on one factor alone. A decision has been taken to install the reactors on those zones, it will be foolhardy to assume from our side that all the factors have not been taken in to consideration while reaching to conclusion which includes the quake and tsunami factor. India has a very good record or running the reactors. We have our share of quakes like in Gujarat but our reactors never faced such issues. Even tsunamis have not created any problems for our reactors.

Yes, I agree, the current setup cannot be changed easily.
cool :)
 

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