Naval MRCA contest. Lockheed offers F-35 to IN

[plugwater]

8ak - Indian Defence News: Lockheed's unconditional offer of F-35 to India, and note on STOVL operations

13 Jan 2010: India Strategic reports that Orville Prins, VP Business development for Lockheed Martin’s vice president for business development has said that a presentation was made to the Indian Navy after a Request for Information (RFI) for newer generation of aircraft was received from the Indian Navy. It is believed that for the first time this has been made unconditionally, ie. no requirement to buy the F-16. It is rumoured (single source only, unreliable) that the F-16 and MiG may already be out of the MMRCA competition.

In a related development, the F-35B Lightning II fifth generation fighter carried out its first in-flight short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) operation at Naval Air Station Patuxent River on Thursday. The successful tests mark the beginning of a series of planned STOVL-mode flights that will include short takeoffs, hovers and vertical landings. "The joint F-35 industry and government team has already shown during extended ground tests that the STOVL propulsion system performs well, and thousands of hours of component testing have validated its durability. Now we are seeing early proof that the system operates in flight as our team predicted," said Dan Crowley, Lockheed Martin executive vice president and F-35 program general manager.

During the flight, F-35 Lead STOVL Pilot of BAE Systems, Graham Tomlinson climbed to 5,000 feet and engaged the shaft-driven Lift Fan propulsion system at 210 knots (288 mph), then slowed to 180 knots (207 mph) with the system engaged before accelerating to 210 knots and converting back to conventional-flight mode. The STOVL propulsion system was engaged for a total of 14 minutes during the flight. STOVL-mode flights will continue, with the aircraft flying progressively slower, hovering, and ultimately landing vertically. Most STOVL-mode testing will be conducted at NAS Patuxent River.

Lockheed Martin is developing the F-35 with its principal industrial partners, Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems. Two separate, interchangeable F-35 engines are under development: the Pratt & Whitney F135 and the GE Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team F136. On 19 February 2006, the first F-35A was rolled out in Fort Worth, Texas. The aircraft underwent extensive ground testing at Naval Air Station Fort Worth Joint Reserve Base, adjacent to Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth manufacturing facility, in fall 2006. On 15 September 2006 the first engine run of the F135 afterburning turbofan was conducted in an airframe, with the tests completed on 18 September after a static run with full afterburner. The engine runs were the first time that the F-35 was completely functional on its own power systems. On 15 December 2006, the F-35A completed its maiden flight.

The F-35B will replace U.S. Marine Corps AV-8B STOVL fighters, F/A-18 strike fighters and EA-6B electronic attack aircraft. The United Kingdom’s Royal Air Force and Royal Navy, as well as the Italian Air Force and Navy, also will employ the F-35B. With its short takeoff and vertical landing capabilities, the F-35B will enable allied forces to conduct operations from small ships and unprepared fields, enabling expeditionary operations around the globe. The Lockheed Martin F-35 is a 5th generation fighter, uniquely characterized by advanced stealth with supersonic speed and high agility, sensor fusion, network-enabled capabilities and advanced sustainment. The three F-35 variants are derived from a common design, are being developed together and will use the same sustainment infrastructure worldwide, bringing economies of commonality and scale.

The F-35 includes a gau-22/A four-barrel 25mm cannon. The cannon will be mounted internally with 180 rounds in the F-35A and fitted as an external pod with 220 rounds in the F-35B and F-35C. The gun pod for the B and C variants will have stealth features. This pod could be used for different equipment in the future, such as EW, reconnaissance equipment, or possibly a rearward facing radar.

 

[Soham]

If we are offered the Lightning, I think we should grab it.
Expecting ToT for the F-35 is like expecting Simi Garewal to become a defence analyst.

 

[Soham]

I gotta say, it's not the prettiest fighter out their.

I gotta say, the most ugly ones generally turn out to be the most deadly.
Example : BUFF and A-10.

 

[prahladh]

India Strategic reports that Orville Prins, VP Business development for Lockheed Martin’s vice president for business development has said that a presentation was made to the Indian Navy after a Request for Information (RFI) for newer generation of aircraft was received from the Indian Navy.

I guess we are not expecting naval FGFA/PAKFA anytime soon. hence going for NAVAL MRCA ( F-35 ).

 

[Armand2REP]

If we are offered the Lightning, I think we should grab it.
Expecting ToT for the F-35 is like expecting Simi Garewal to become a defence analyst.

I think you should to, depending on the price. Lock Mart's cost overuns are really going to determine the future of this programme.

 

[Singh]

Mig 29k, Naval Tejas and now demand for a Naval MRCA ? What are these people smoking ?

 

[ppgj]

I guess we are not expecting naval FGFA/PAKFA anytime soon. hence going for NAVAL MRCA ( F-35 ).

naval PAKFA/FGFA to my mind has been a mere speculation by defence enthusiasts/journos. it may or may not happen. left for future.

i don't think there is any link for naval MRCA because of that.

 

[Blitz]

its more of a playing than a serious issue they want all the world majors to have their eyes only on india away from the neighbours
smart play by india

 

[ppgj]

Mig 29k, Naval Tejas

these are for Vikramaditya & IAC 1. (both STOBAR)

and now demand for a Naval MRCA ? What are these people smoking ?

these are for catapult capable (CATOBAR) IAC 2.

 

[Singh]

and who is supplying the catobar tech ? and why not go in for svotl and buy f-35s for all acs ? or go in only for super hornets for both naval mrca and mmrca ?
why go in for mig29ks and n-tejas at all ?

 

[StealthSniper]

If we are offered the Lightning, I think we should grab it.
Expecting ToT for the F-35 is like expecting Simi Garewal to become a defence analyst.

ToT is not the only issue as I mentioned in my previous post. Getting the F-35 will give us access to alternate technology and that's fine and dandy but it will also give us a plane that will be inferior to all of the partner F-35's and then we can only use it in a matter that works in America's interest. I guarantee that a indigenous fighter made by India will be more effective and deadlier in combat because it's developed in house and nobody knows it's true capabilities. Other countries will have F-35's also so they have some knowledge of what it can or can't do. And also if we do buy advanced stuff from America Pakistan will get it down the road.


India's time is now and we are a big enough country with talented young people that can make fighters that maybe aren't as capable as a F-35 but we have to start somewhere. The MMRCA is desperately needed and I understand, but we need to stop buying foreign equipment "with strings attached" and start working harder on indigenous stuff or we will still be buying stuff 30 years from now.

 

[ppgj]

and who is supplying the catobar tech ?

may be navy is doing it herself. they have their own design bureau. in any case IAC 2 will come 2018. they have time.

capacity of over 50,000t and will be equipped with steam catapults to launch fourth-generation aircraft.

Naval Technology - India to Launch First Indigenous Aircraft Carrier in 2010

and why not go in for svotl and buy f-35s for all acs ?

SVOTL are maintainence intensive. look at the Harriers we have lost.

F-35, first of all US may not give, at least till MMRCA goes in their favour. and ofc cost is a factor. it may also come in a stripped down version.

or go in only for super hornets for both naval mrca and mmrca ?

FA-18 E/F is again CATOBAR compliant. it wont be able to take off from short strip with full load. and both our IAC 1 and Vikramaditya AC's are STOBAR.

why go in for mig29ks and n-tejas at all ?

Because they are STOBAR a/c's and our vikramaditya and IAC 1 are STOBAR.

 

[Singh]

1. India doesn't have the time nor the tech.

2. why go in for CATOBAR when 2 STOBAR certified crafts are already present and STOBAR tech is mastered ?

3. Wouldn't it be prudent to go in for SVOTL craft as it can be operated from all teh ACs rather than operate 3 different types of crafts ?

4. India will get the same version of F-35 as the others. US has been incredibly generous and forthcoming with us.

 

[StealthSniper]

1. India doesn't have the time nor the tech.

2. why go in for CATOBAR when 2 STOBAR certified crafts are already present and STOBAR tech is mastered ?

3. Wouldn't it be prudent to go in for SVOTL craft as it can be operated from all teh ACs rather than operate 3 different types of crafts ?

4. India will get the same version of F-35 as the others. US has been incredibly generous and forthcoming with us.

Singh;

1. India doesn't have the tech I agree, but we should continue to do new things that will boost our private industry and propel our indigenous capacity.

2. I actually agree that STOBAR should be good enough for India needs now and in the future. I think CATOBAR is also good but the NAVY seems to be rushing now.

3. I think having STOVL with STOBAR is a good alternative but I think just having Mig-29k with STOBAR is good enough for at least 15 years I think.

4. Sorry Singh but as long as we are friends and partners with Russia we won't get the top of the line American equipment. It's to risky for the US.


Also I have just posted a link in USA military developments saying that the US Navy can't even afford the F-35. It might just be hocus pocus but it says a F-18 cost 5,000 per hour to run and a F-35 cost 31,000 per hour to run. Maybe you can read it and offer your insights.

 

[neo29]

If we are offered the Lightning, I think we should grab it.
Expecting ToT for the F-35 is like expecting Simi Garewal to become a defence analyst.

ToT is compulsory. We cant just depend on US for support on such a costly fighter.
i have read somewhere that UK had considered f-35 naval variant but then they are now interested in rafale because they think f-35 production will take longer than expected.

Most defence firms are offering everything they have to india, thanks to the huge defence market here. everyone wants to have a slice. the f-22 raptor is banned for export in US, or they would have offered that also.

 

[Armand2REP]

1. India doesn't have the time nor the tech.

It really isn't that complex of a technology.

2. why go in for CATOBAR when 2 STOBAR certified crafts are already present and STOBAR tech is mastered ?

The advantage of CATOBAR is being able to load up your planes near max payload. Using skijumps for takeoff drastically reduce the load being carried. Par example, Su-33s can only carry 69% fuel and a limited load of AAMs.

3. Wouldn't it be prudent to go in for SVOTL craft as it can be operated from all teh ACs rather than operate 3 different types of crafts ?

No, it would be prudent to get CATOBAR. It makes the operational capabilty of your aviation that much more potent and for the cost is well worth it.

4. India will get the same version of F-35 as the others. US has been incredibly generous and forthcoming with us.

US is making different export versions which protect technologies, whether stealth will be reduced is open to debate.

 

[ppgj]

1. India doesn't have the time nor the tech.

IN plans and executes things in advance. if only GOI had been more supportive of them in the past!!

having said that IN has its own design bureau. they design their ships themselves. even IAC 1 is their design.

the navy is upto something. i will not be surprised if they feel they would be ready for a CATOBAR design and its execution by 2018 at cochin shipyard.

2. why go in for CATOBAR when 2 STOBAR certified crafts are already present and STOBAR tech is mastered ?

CATOBAR gives the aircrafts the ability to take off with max load. plus you save on fuel!! and hence the range is enhanced that much.

3. Wouldn't it be prudent to go in for SVOTL craft as it can be operated from all teh ACs rather than operate 3 different types of crafts ?

problems of maintainence and they guzzle fuel too. accident prone.

F-35 may have overcome those problems but they wont give it with latest gizmos.

4. India will get the same version of F-35 as the others. US has been incredibly generous and forthcoming with us.

mere speculation, to my mind. even if it happens will come with too many strings attached. there is trust deficit due to historic US track record.

may be they are trying to overcome them with so many orders going the american way, but the US congress can spoil the party anytime. that chance one will be wary to take particularly when it comes to combat readiness.

 

[Daredevil]

With PAK-FA/FGFA in making, it doesn't make sense to go for F-35, which even if opted for will only be delivered after 2020 as there is a big line for its delivery from US allies.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

Don't get to excited Quickgun, if you look at things more in depth and a clear mind we aren't really going to get much. Considering that USA is not even providing full TOT and source codes to it's most important allies like Britain and Australia we will definately get a downgraded, inferior, and very expensive aircraft that will come with additional strings attached. Nobody will be scared if India gets the F-35 because we probably will get sanctions or it won't work if we use it at China or Pakistan.

Plus considering that we are really good friends with Russia I highly doubt America is going to risk sending top quality electronics to India and jeopardize the billions they spent on designing and engineering work just for another export customer.

Ohh.. Not the same "dont buy US" rhetoric again. Naval MMRCA is too small a deal for it to get ToT of any fighter. Even a downgraded version of F-35 will be hell of a deal considering the maturity in stealth it will bring to navy's arsenal.

And moreover, Russia is no China to reverse engineer American products and India is no Pakistan to allow its American equipments to reach foreign hands. Like P-8I, if approved, F-35 too will come with end-user agreements.

Also, I am not too hopeful about F-35 deal approval either. US senate most probably will reject it. But, incase approved, i dont think Navy is stupid enough to let this pass as it is the one which requested RFI for F-35 in the first place.

 

[Solid Beast]

I don't think India has to really worry about the political connotations of buying sensitive defense equipment from the U.S. One has to only decipher why the U.S. has offered and you can readily come to the conclusion. You don't get to be a part of 5th generation technology unless there is deep trust, as currently only NATO members are customer/partners in the consortium which is giving birth to F-35.

I think it would fit in great for the maritime role as well as an excellent strike platform, and also act as a force multiplier with the Russian/Indian platform. All Fighters with powerful AESA radars act as powerful early warning systems so one must assume there will be strategic cohesion from the get go. Knowing that the Chinese 5th generation response will derive much of it's heart from the Russian efforts, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have variation in the arsenal. As much as it sounds daunting to me, but I will say that Pakistan won't be getting Western equipment like it used to and if India operated F-35 it would be a strategic blow in terms of acquisitions of future platforms. Pakistan is reluctant to fully put their eggs in the Chinese basket when it comes to the air force. As a Pakistani I wouldn't expect our "mortal enemy" Bharat to miss a chance at denying Pakistan cutting edge military hardware and here there is a very good chance of that happening. In whatever the case, don't expect full ToT if you aren't willing to tow certain lines, but 4-5 squadrons with logistical support/maintenance would be good enough and full ToT wouldn't be a big requirement.