NATO Expansion: Threat to World Peace

[jouni]

Dear @jouni, I do not know where you collect your information from (perhaps the same source as the Finnish Foreign Minister?), but from your comments, I regretfully state that your knowledge of recent European history is far from perfect.

It was not Kosovo bombing, it was bombing of Kosovo and regions outside of Kosovo, including Belgrade. Please read more about current European history.

Also, try to read and appreciate the posts by @amoy.

Sorry, In this case my english is worse that my knowledge of European history...

 

[apple]

If NATO keeps on expanding and pursuing its "collective security" unilaterally at the expense of the security of non-member stakeholders (read Russia here) it certainly has to face repercussions. Those "small neighbours" have to be aware selective aversion to certain risks (by joining NATO) may entail acceptance of other greater risks (possibly of pressure or hostility from the other side). Yugoslavia / Kosovo bombing indeed is a proof of "West hypocrisy". Now on what moral high ground can the West / NATO stand for Ukraine's sovereign "integrity" against E. Ukrainian secession when NATO propped up Bosnia / Kosovo separatism which resulted in humanitarian catastrophes and unhealed wounds before? Do they have any "consistency" rather than dual standards?

Have never really understood what was the ideological basis for (non Serbian) people complaining about the bombing of Serbia and Serbs in Kosovo. Russia's objections I get, but others... Can you explain, Amoy, how this was an example of "Western hypocrisy". For me, NATO military intervention in Yugoslavia was very much in line and consistent with Western foreign policy since... well President's Wilson 12(???) points of 1919, at least.

All peoples have the right to self determination and the strong should protect the weak.

Ukrainian situation has enough similiarities i.e. Ukrainian is getting bullied by a stronger neighbour, with Yugoslavia that I fail to see any inconsistencies with western policy there and the policy pursued in the Yugoslavia region.

Did your humanitarian catastrophes in Yugoslavia begin with NATO intervention? Or was it NATO intervention that finally stopped it all?

 

[Ray]

During the so called Croatia's War for Independence [1992-1995] the United States with the tacit consent of NATO financed and supported Operation Storm ["Oluja"]. Using a surrogate, the CIA and Pentagon controlled and funded Professional Resources Incorporated, the United States provided military advisors, training, planning, intelligence including satellite capabilities and ultimately arms to successfully support secession. That intervention was later deemed a "joint criminal enterprise" and prosecuted as such by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

Kosovo was an integral part of Serbia until Tito started gerrymandering Yugoslavia's internal borders in 1945 making it an autonomous region of the Republic of Serbia. By 1998 ethnic and economic demographics changed Kosovo from a Serb-dominated region to one predominantly Albanian, but still an integral part of the Serbia with significant economic, religious and cultural ties and resources. This shift in demographics brought ethnic conflict and violence to Kosovo.

Without United Nations Security Council authorization NATO, with the United States taking the lead, waged war bombing what was then the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia [Serbia & Montenegro] between March and June, 1999 invoking the right to "ensure humanitarian relief for the people of Kosovo" providing a fig leaf exemption to the law on territorial integrity. The end result was the nascent Kosovo Republic which still awaits full international recognition. Kosovo is a prime example of nation building by secession using foreign force of arms in contravention to the rule of territorial integrity, a state of affairs aided and abetted by the United States.

Humanitarian intervention is now the accepted norm for violations of territorial integrity relying on the broad language of Article 73 (b) of the United Nations Charter ""¦to develop self-government, to take due account of the political aspiration of the peoples, and to assist them in the progressive development of their free political institutions, according to the particular circumstance of each territory and its peoples and their varying stages of advancement".

Which brings us to the present crisis in the Ukraine and Russia's military intervention in the Crimean Peninsula, a crisis which is continuing.

Ukraine, a former republic of the USSR now independent, has ethnic and economic dichotomies. Western Ukraine is economically aligned with Europe and populated by Ukrainians, a distinct East Slavic ethnic group. Eastern Ukraine is populated by Russian speaking Slavs who are economically dependent on neighbouring Russia. In the southeast is the Crimean Peninsula which, like the Kosovo Republic, is home to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea which is distinct and apart from the rest of the Ukraine. It is home to the Russian warm water naval fleet at Sevastopol and has other important military installations. It has been traditionally controlled, notwithstanding independence, by the Russian military.

For months Ukraine has been torn by civil strife pitting the Western half that supports a trade agreement with the European Union against the East that opposes it. President Victor Yanukovych refused to sign the agreement precipitating a revolution or a coup d'état which toppled the government. Yanukovich sought Russia's help to restore order and his presidency.

Secretary of State John Kerry has long defended the right of Americans to be stupid and has proven it once again by saying, with a straight face and appropriate gravitas, "You just don't invade another country on phony pretext in order to assert your interests" adding that "[t]his is an act of aggression that is completed trumped up in terms of its pretext" [emphasis supplied], this coming from the mouth of a former United States senator who had voted for war in Iraq, a war presupposed on non-existent weapons of mass destruction. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[apple]

Your example, Ray, requires one to accept the supposition that Crimean's people were being oppressed by the Ukraine and they required Russian intervention to save them.

I don't believe that, so can't agree with what you've written/ copy-pasted (presumably from Wikipedia).

 

[Ray]

Your example, Ray, requires one to accept the supposition that Crimean's people were being oppressed by the Ukraine and they required Russian intervention to save them.

I don't believe that, so can't agree with what you've written/ copy-pasted (presumably from Wikipedia).

Well since you are a Crimean, I would go with your theory.

And Kosovo is kosher.

Both start with a 'k' and so it must be right, what ho?

 

[jouni]

I work in cross border projects with Russia, my colleague is a russian economist, lately we had long discussion about Ukraine. He said that it has been Russian politics since WW2 to have east europe and Ukraine as a buffer zone and underdeveloped to benefit Russia. All other have break free only Ukraine (and BLR) are left.

Russians have this fear since for at least Crimean War (not the current!) that all of Europe is just waiting a change to attack her, he also said.

 

[jouni]

The Failed States Index 2013 | The Fund for Peace

Nato countries are pretty high in this index. It has brought them stability.

 

[asianobserve]

Putin's gambit in Ukraine is paying off... for NATO.

Finland and Sweden plan to work more closely with Nato by signing a pact that allows assistance from alliance troops in the Nordic countries in emergency situations, officials said on Wednesday.

Finland and Sweden to strengthen ties with Nato | World news | theguardian.com

 

[amoy]

Have never really understood what was the ideological basis for (non Serbian) people complaining about the bombing of Serbia and Serbs in Kosovo. Russia's objections I get, but others... Can you explain, Amoy, how this was an example of "Western hypocrisy". For me, NATO military intervention in Yugoslavia was very much in line and consistent with Western foreign policy since... well President's Wilson 12(???) points of 1919, at least.

All peoples have the right to self determination and the strong should protect the weak.

Ukrainian situation has enough similiarities i.e. Ukrainian is getting bullied by a stronger neighbour, with Yugoslavia that I fail to see any inconsistencies with western policy there and the policy pursued in the Yugoslavia region.

Did your humanitarian catastrophes in Yugoslavia begin with NATO intervention? Or was it NATO intervention that finally stopped it all?

1) ideological basis for (non Serbian) people complaining about the bombing of Serbia and Serbs in Kosovo.
As a non Serbian my "idealogical" basis is NATO's intervention was not authorized by UN and was a breach of Yugo's sovereignty.
Civilian Casualties of NATO's War on Yugoslavia
NATO Bombing Of Chinese Embassy, Belgrade - British Pathé

the North Atlantic Treaty Alliance (NATO) flew over 35,000 combat missions over the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Over 1,000 warplanes (among others F-15, F-16, F-117) and 206 helicopters were used in the air strikes. More than 20,000 laser or satellite-guided weapons were launched and over 79,000 tons of explosives were dropped, including 152 containers with 35,450 cluster bombs, thermo-visual and graphite bombs, which are prohibited under international conventions.1

2) NATO military intervention in Yugoslavia was very much in line and consistent with Western foreign policy
The same can be said Putin's action is very much in line with "Russian foreign policy". So stop crying foul over Russian "bullying" Ukraine. Each's "foreign policy" is self serving of course.

3) The humanitarian disaster continues >> Serbs and Roma Flee KLA Terror in Kosovo

As many as 170,000 Serbs of a pre-war population of 200,000 have left the province since the withdrawal of Yugoslav troops. Less than 7,000 Roma are estimated to remain of a population of 30,000 to 40,000. Most of those are confined to enclaves, surrounded by NATO's Kosovo Force (KFOR) troops and living in constant fear of KLA attack.

4) Right of self determination ?
Good, then why was IRA tagged as terrorist for Northern Ireland, or Basque conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia where "consistency" is required.

 

[apple]

1) As a non Serbian my "idealogical" basis is NATO's intervention was not authorized by UN and was a breach of Yugo's sovereignty.
Civilian Casualties of NATO's War on Yugoslavia
NATO Bombing Of Chinese Embassy, Belgrade - British Path�

You're championing the UN are you? I can't even be bothered writing about the UN in regards to European military matters. As to Yugoslavian sovereignty, you've got a point and hitting the Chinese embassy was a bad mistake. But I'd see them as peripheral issues compared to what was happening on the ground.

Should I google up wiki statistics on how many people the Serbs (and Croats, Bosnian and Kosovo Albanians) had killed? As well as to how quickly they stopped when confronted by NATO?

2) The same can be said Putin's action is very much in line with "Russian foreign policy". So stop crying foul over Russian "bullying" Ukraine. Each's "foreign policy" is self serving of course.

I never mentioned Russian foreign policy. I was answering your claim about Western hypocrisy and I don't see you replying to my response. You're just skirting around my points and trying to qualify your initial claims by bringing into the discussion new and irrelevant claims.

3) The humanitarian disaster continues >> Serbs and Roma Flee KLA Terror in Kosovo

For a start, I would be very hesistant about all reporting from the area of former Yugoslavia, particularly web based reporting from a page called: Kosovo99. But sure, there are still plenty of evil people in the areas of former Yugoslavia on all sides. Without NATO intervening, and remaining there, what do you think would have happened/ would still be happening?

It's very easy to be critical, as many nations/ posters on this site, who aren't satisfied with the status quo, are.

4) Right of self determination ?
Good, then why was IRA tagged as terrorist for Northern Ireland, or Basque conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia where "consistency" is required.

What? The (provisional) IRA were tagged as terrorists because they were terrorists. The Roman Catholic population in Northern Ireland was, and remains, a minority and weren't universally behind the IRA/ INLA.

I am an English speaking Roman Catholic, don't talk to me about Northern Ireland.

As to the Basques, I know little about their situation and suspect you know even less. Understand they are happy enough in France and the recent history of Spain is barely one of a western democracy. Is plenty of groups (well the Catalans at least) denied self determination in Spain.

 

[happy]

https://twitter.com/ManusMacManus/status/506764009975328769/photo/1

 

[happy]

You're championing the UN are you? I can't even be bothered writing about the UN in regards to European military matters. As to Yugoslavian sovereignty, you've got a point and hitting the Chinese embassy was a bad mistake. But I'd see them as peripheral issues compared to what was happening on the ground.

How do you know what is happening on the ground ?? Your sources ???................is the web and media as is everyone else's. So speak for yourself.

Should I google up wiki statistics on how many people the Serbs (and Croats, Bosnian and Kosovo Albanians) had killed? As well as to how quickly they stopped when confronted by NATO?

Why not try it once ?

I am an English speaking Roman Catholic, don't talk to me about Northern Ireland.

Who cares?

As to the Basques, I know little about their situation and suspect you know even less. Understand they are happy enough in France and the recent history of Spain is barely one of a western democracy. Is plenty of groups (well the Catalans at least) denied self determination in Spain.

Ok.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Well, the WEST thinks that the whole world is WEST only.....

There is no place for Middle-East and Asia. They always think that what they do is for the betterment of humanity, but end up doing harm to the humanity and it is evident in the matter of Iraq and Afghanistan and the entire middle-east. Thanks for the WEST as the entire middle-east is fighting and killing their own people. They have for ages tried to keep ASIA degraded and have looted the wealth of ASIA and now claim to be the most developed and richest countries and the most civilized of all. Shame on the WEST to boast about themselves by looting the wealth of others. The time is near for the WEST to taste their own medicine.

 

[jouni]

https://twitter.com/ManusMacManus/status/506764009975328769/photo/1

The map forgets that Also Kazakhstan has become suspicious of Russia's aggression

 

[jouni]

SvD: Suomi ja Ruotsi saavat Natolta "kultakortin" - Kotimaan uutiset - Ilta-Sanomat

Finland and Sweden get NATO "Gold card" ( deepened partnership ). Also Australia is in the list. @pmaitra, have India ever considered deepened NATO relationship? You have the same history with Britain as Australia has?

 

[pmaitra]

SvD: Suomi ja Ruotsi saavat Natolta "kultakortin" - Kotimaan uutiset - Ilta-Sanomat

Finland and Sweden get NATO "Gold card" ( deepened partnership ). Also Australia is in the list. @pmaitra, have India ever considered deepened NATO relationship? You have the same history with Britain as Australia has?

No, but US efforts towards creating an Asian NATO, called SEATO, involving India's enemy, put an end to that. Moreover, India is a non-aligned state, except when it was pushed into an alliance with the USSR by the US threat of an invasion in 1971.

 

[jouni]

No, but US efforts towards creating an Asian NATO, called SEATO, involving India's enemy, put an end to that. Moreover, India is a non-aligned state, except when it was pushed into an alliance with the USSR by the US threat of an invasion in 1971.

I never knew US was gonna invade India. They must mixed you up with other "indians"

 

[Razor]

SvD: Suomi ja Ruotsi saavat Natolta "kultakortin" - Kotimaan uutiset - Ilta-Sanomat

Finland and Sweden get NATO "Gold card" ( deepened partnership ).

Congratulations. Yup, the US is going to go so deep in you. :thumb:

Also Australia is in the list. @pmaitra, have India ever considered deepened NATO relationship? You have the same history with Britain as Australia has?

Why should India consider a relationship with the NATO.
Doesn't make sense.
We don't intend to be used as pawns AND one of our threats is an MNNA.

 

[Razor]

I never knew US was gonna invade India. They must mixed you up with other "indians"

Nah, St. US wiped out almost all of the Native Americans.

 

[happy]

The map forgets that Also Kazakhstan has become suspicious of Russia's aggression

And how did you get that conclusion, may I ask?? As a general forum rule, please avoid making one-liners so that your posts may be more informative.