NAL Saras, Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) & Hansa Project

[Dhairya Yadav]

We have to understand that we are not talking in sense of civil lain aerospace but military ..

There are many modification needed to be done for specific workload, On DO-228 we cannot do as this aircraft is ' Imported ', Any modification would cause illegal changes by the user to the original design by the company ..

With SARAS we don`t have such issues, Some example that can be done with SARAS but not DO-228 ..

1. EW aircraft
2. AEW aircraft
3. Recon Aircraft
4. Naval strike and recon Aircraft ..

Etc ..

I agree that Saras would not be able to replace or have any place in civil market, due its need of a flight engineer too.
But this is also a limitation to its military applications .
I dont know about Saras Mk2, but the Saras in present config of 3 flight crew is pretty odd, as nearly all the other aircraft manufacturers have adopted 2 flight crew config since 1980s.
This i consider the main limitation of Saras, and why its inferior to Dornier. Most civilian aircraft of the size comparable to Saras require just One pilot, but im not making a comparison, as they are civilian.

However, I do agree that we can modify Saras as per our requirements, but the main loose nut is what I just said. To make it compete even a little in civilian market, and to make it exportable like Dhruv to several other countries, this needs to be fixed ASAP.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Our main priority is our need first, Saras may have 3 flight crew which is not uncommon in IAF as all major transport use 3 flight crew or more even DO-228 in service with IAF ..

However, I do agree that we can modify Saras as per our requirements, but the main loose nut is what I just said. To make it compete even a little in civilian market, and to make it exportable like Dhruv to several other countries, this needs to be fixed ASAP.

 

[sgarg]

I think Dornier is modified for various roles in Indian service. For example maritime versions are fitted with surface search radars.

However Saras may be a better aircraft compared to Dornier. We hope NAL completes the certification ASAP and get the plane cleared for manufacturing.

 

[hitesh]

I think India has bought all rights for Dornier DO-228 and is the only country producing it

 

[hitesh]

We have to understand that we are not talking in sense of civil lain aerospace but military ..

Any modification would cause illegal changes by the user to the original design by the company ..

into

Did India asked for permission ? no ! then why its problem for a plane that is no longer manufactured by Germans

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

into

Did India asked for permission ? no ! then why its problem for a plane that is no longer manufactured by Germans

IPR is still with the parent co

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

into

Did India asked for permission ? no ! then why its problem for a plane that is no longer manufactured by Germans

Who told you Do 228 is not in production???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_228

HAL and RUAG together in collaboration manufacture Do 228NG , since 2009.

 

[hitesh]

Who told you Do 228 is not in production???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_228

HAL and RUAG together in collaboration manufacture Do 228NG , since 2009.

The aircraft, originally designed, developed and manufactured by M/s Dornier GmbH, Germany is presently manufactured only by HAL. HAL now has world-wide marketing rights for HAL-Dornier-228 and can extend logistics / spares support throughout the operating life of aircraft.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Exports - Dornier 228

Did i say not in production ?

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Exports - Dornier 228

Did i say not in production ?

What else does "not manufactured" means?
I find it hard to believe, but HAL website could be incorrect. Do 228NG is also in production in Germany by RUAG , Aero structures, fuselage is supplied by HAL.
May be they are indicating spare supplies for older version.

 

[sgarg]

What is the problem with Saras. The PT1 is modified. PT3 is manufactured as per last year news. Why is it not flying?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

What else does "not manufactured" means?
I find it hard to believe, but HAL website could be incorrect. Do 228NG is also in production in Germany by RUAG , Aero structures, fuselage is supplied by HAL.
May be they are indicating spare supplies for older version.

Ruaag has stopped production and amde an offer to HAL

to take up manufacturing of Dornier NG - Ruag will take orders / upgrade projects as OEM ans will them on to HAL for actual work / mfg and will also transfer tech for Dornier NG to HAL

dont know what happened after that

this was some 6 months ago

 

[Kunal Biswas]

How do you know about ' Yes ' and ' No ' ? These are state and company agreement only ..

It is mandatory to ask for permission to any license product that is being manufactured by host country ..

Did India asked for permission ? no ! then why its problem for a plane that is no longer manufactured by Germans

 

[hitesh]

How do you know about ' Yes ' and ' No ' ? These are state and company agreement only ..

It is mandatory to ask for permission to any license product that is being manufactured by host country ..

SO then why did DRDO experimented with Karan(modified T72) without Russians approval or did they have no idea of terms of licence production

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You should know about these details before asking these questions, If i remember i already talked about it, Still i will post it ; That depends upon the modification limits done at approval of the third party, The Russian did allowed modification of T-72M1 chassis, that is why we have Akash SAM mounted on T-72M1 chassis, But in case of Karan the modification was latter restricted on purpose which has to do with the turret ring modification on T-72M1 chassis, Due to which Karan could not use existing chassis rather complete new T-72M1 chassis imported no where but only from Russia ..

SO then why did DRDO experimented with Karan(modified T72) without Russians approval or did they have no idea of terms of licence production

 

[sgarg]

The Saras aircraft was battling with weight problems. According to internet, the first prototype was one ton overweight. Second prototype (crashed) was 400kg less than first.
The third prototype is supposed to be 500 kg less. What I could not find is if that is compared to first or second.

The aircraft is built for 7100kg max take-off weight. So its empty weight needs to be around 4100kg to give it a decent useful load capability.

The absence of flights of Saras indicates that weight targets are not met. So I assume the third prototype is still overweight by 500kg. This seems to be the problem.

I guess they can replace more metal parts with composites but they may have run out of money. The government sanctioned three prototypes only.

Further work on Saras will need more money from the government. So we have an aircraft that can fly but does not meet the design goals.

 

[sgarg]

The other issues with Saras could be that Dornier may be cheaper and more economical to run. I think the focus on Saras is lost and it is one of those projects that we can now call "competence building" for setting up local aviation industry.

 

[Zebra]

Documentary - NAL SARAS Light Multi-Utility Aircraft


Published on Dec 18, 2012, by Luptonga

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This can be correct with replacing the Turbo-prop by Turbo-fans which are lesser in weight and can give more thrust and power to componsate for weight gain, The only issue is more fuel consumption which can cause lesser range but again this can be rectified with additional fuel tanks ..

I guess they can replace more metal parts with composites but they may have run out of money. The government sanctioned three prototypes only.

Further work on Saras will need more money from the government. So we have an aircraft that can fly but does not meet the design goals.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some Light weight Tubrofans instead of Turbo-prop ..

Williams FJ44-4 >>
Thrust (lbf) : 3,600
Thrust (N) : 16,014
Dry weight: 140 kg

=================

GE Honda HF120 >>

Maximum thrust: takeoff thrust: 2,050 lb
Dry weight: 180 kg

=================

Pratt & Whitney Canada PW600

Take-off Thrust (lbf) : 1,615 (7.18 kN)
Dry Weight, : 176.9 kg


================>>
================>>

SARAS `S trubo-prop specification >>

Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6

Type: Turboprop
Length: 62 in (1,575 mm)
Diameter: 19 in (483 mm)
Dry weight: 270 lb (122.47 kg)
Air mass flow: 5.3 lb (2 kg)/second

 

[hitesh]

This can be correct with replacing the Turbo-prop by Turbo-fans which are lesser in weight and can give more thrust and power to componsate for weight gain, The only issue is more fuel consumption which can cause lesser range but again this can be rectified with additional fuel tanks ..

Sir jee don't you think additional fuel tanks would again create weight plenty for already over weight plane & Turbo-fans would also increase the maintenance & over all cost .


maybe you want is a HondaJet