NAL Saras, Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) & Hansa Project

[Rahul Singh]

Airlines are quite skittish in general so very risk adverse, having a govt airline that would assure of orders for Saras then build up fleet hours on the type would be a good confidence booster for the rest to follow. It may be quite a challenge to get the first few private operators to order the Saras, this is why I hope the private entity that makes the civil version of Saras is also given the task of marketing it.

The same goes for the RTA, by the time it is ready Air India may have only a nominal stake from the govt.

Without a GOI owned carrier as a launch customer and a major operator of SARAS, neither it nor any following designs like RTA etc would ever be successful commercially. The story of Civil Dhruv and HANSA will repeat. I have little doubt about it.

I also believe that even if these designs are sold to a private manufacturer there is a little chance of success considering the manufacturer agrees to purchase ToT in the first place. Which I seriously doubt given huge financial risk involved.

GOI needs to show some foresight and at least keep Alliance Air with it. Later developing specially for the purpose of regional connectivity under UDAN. That in addition to acting a launch customer of upcoming indigenous designs.

If at all we are to succeed in civil aviation, a foresight is required supported by necessary actions well before the time.

 

[Flame Thrower]

@Rahul Singh Bhai, I hardly know about civil avaiation. What you've said might be true or not.....we'll never know until a proper CBA is done.

But saying the project will fail even before it could start is definitely wrong. This kind of pessimistic attitude coupled with Dalals & fund crunches have left us in a backward position.

By the time of SARAS completion, we'll have a clear picture i.e. design, CBA and maybe future partners for RTA-70

 

[darshan978]

=>



And there is the problem, a Do 228 is produced by HAL and TATA in India and has an indigenous content of 74% already.
Also the Do 228 is already a 19 seater, so we are basically trying to achieve and compete with what we already have and it will cost the tax payer at least 600 cores.

and give licence fees to their ip owners like slaves

 

[Sancho]

that's not all, an opportunity for industry to grow. When you already have an airframe built out, why not use it perfect it.

Because we DON'T have an airframe yet, that's the point! We need 600 crores to develop the MK2 19 seater, because the current prototype is not good enough for serial production. So we still start from scratch as we did, when we took over the Russian design.
And as explained, our industry already has that segment covered today, so why duplicate the same again? What we need is an aircraft segment that we don't have and that's what we have to invest in.
Btw, if HAL is forced into Saras, it's likely that RUAG will divert the Do 228 completely to TATA, not just production parts. So the competition then gets RUAG/TATA Do 228 vs NAL/HAL Saras, what do you guess will be more interesting for any customer?

I've asked for CBA on SARAS...

How about yours........what are your opinions and options for UDAN project and a hundred airports planned in this project.

The "global" sales numbers of this kind of light class aircraft for civil use. It's not an A320 or 737 that will be sold with thousands of orders of larger airlines. It's a niche product even if we look at India itself and the biggest potential customer remains to be the forces if at all (naval drones take over maritime surveillance in future).

 

[Sancho]

I wonder if they still plan on having a turbofan variant of RTA-70

Sadly no movement there, but that's the aircraft we really need and there is so much obvious potential to jointly develop it (Tata/Airbus avro replacement), but as long as the government remains so undecisive, nothing will happen other than poor marketing.

Where does it say 74% is the final target? As with most Indian projects the indigenious content will creep up year after year, 74% is the absolute limit HAL has been able to indigenise the Do-228 after decades. In 10 years Saras may be >85% indigenious.

As with most Indian projects, only the name is Indian, while design and most core techs are foreign, but licence produced or assembled in India. That's where the high content comes from, not from own products.
What matters is, that this content represent the work that is done in India, so even for the Do 228, Hawk, MKI..., we already have high workshare of our industry, so just saying we have a product with an Indian name, doesn't make it better or more useful for the industry.

Having the Saras will allow India to have a test bed for future systems (engines, radars, EO pods, ELINT/EW systems etc) without having to consult a foreign OEM,

=>

HAL produced Dornier (DO-228) aircraft “Nabhratna” has been handed over to Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) ahead of schedule at a program in Kanpur today. Dr. R.K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL presented the keys of the aircraft to Avinash Chander, Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri in presence of senior officers from HAL, DRDO and other establishments. Speaking on the occasion, SA to RM, hailed HAL for being proactive and delivering the aircraft six months ahead of schedule. “We needed this aircraft much more than anything else for testing of radar in air as we had to depend on others to loan the aircraft. Thanks to HAL, our dream has now been realised. The use of Flying Test Bed (FTB) aircraft will reduce the cycle time for development for airborne system”, he said. “Money invested for the aircraft will give us returns many times more as the aircraft will prove its worth in the months to come”, he added.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories3361_HAL_makes_Dornier_Nabhratna_DRDO.htm

So here again, the Do 228 by HAL already has that requirement covered and what we really need, would be a larger and faster test bed, for a 360 degree radar or EW developments.

And what kind of thinking is this anyway, what's wrong with competition?

Nothing, if you compete other international vendors on the global market. Here we are talking about competing ourselves, for our own small requirement. So duplicating the same capability don't result into higher orders, but in splitting orders, which is bad for Do 228 as well as Saras.

Akash isn't cheap?

Yes it is compared to other systems in the market, the notion that everything developed and produced in India, must be far cheaper than foreign counterparts is wrong as you know, especially if limited to the forces only and no exports can be generated. The same would be the case for a Saras, that doesn't come with a free market and the potential of high exports. The initial aircrafts surely will not be cost-effective and we have to double the investments, since the project already costed several 100 cores, which all will add to the sales price.

 

[Sancho]

and give licence fees to their ip owners like slaves

You mean like we do for all the foreign parts in Tejas?

 

[darshan978]

You mean like we do for all the foreign parts in Tejas?

do you understand meaning of licence mfg?? first

 

[Sancho]

do you understand meaning of licence mfg?? first

I do and as in the case of Tejas, we are no slave either, in fact the licence production parts keeps the programme alive, where would Tejas be without foreign engine, radar, nose...? So that statement of yours was completely false to start with. We can only be self reliant in areas where we have expertise, while we need to use foreign parts or ideally foreign support to develop things. That's why duplicating an aircraft class that we already have in production from our industry doesn't not make much sense. Those 600 cores invested in RTA 70 and coupled with the Tata/Airbus Avro replacement, would give a India far more.

 

[patriots]

hv a look guys................................................

 

[Sancho]

Second Indian-built Do 228 To Fly in March
Nov 20, 2017

...With the launch of the subsidy laden Regional Connectivity Scheme by the Ministry of Civil Aviation, HAL has begun exploring opportunities to sell the aircraft to operators interested in connecting small and medium-size airports to the broader air transport network in India. Last year, now former chairman and managing director of Air India Ashwani Lohani told AIN that the national carrier would consider acquiring some ten aircraft for regional subsidiary Alliance Air. HAL’s Kanpur division already has received civil certification for both Do 228 manufacture and maintenance repair and overhaul, thereby creating important cost efficiencies for maintenance in particular, added Lohani...

...He estimated a potential 20-year market for some 100 nineteen-seaters in India.

HAL manufactures the fuselage, wings and tail unit of the Do 228. Last year, the company handed over the first shipset to Ruag in Germany to fulfill export orders for structural assemblies of Do 228-212 NGs. Ruag has ordered eight sets, of which the seventh has reached the delivery stage.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...17-11-20/second-indian-built-do-228-fly-march

Advantage UDAN, as ‘civilian’ Dornier takes off
DECEMBER 22, 2017

On Friday, a Dornier 228 aircraft, manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, took off from Kanpur heading to Nashik. The first civilian aircraft to be produced and certified in India, this Dornier is now available for commerical sale and could end up giving a lift to the ‘Make in India’ programme as also the Centre’s regional connectivity scheme called UDAN for Ude Desh Ka Aam Nagrik...

...Confirming the development, a senior HAL official told BusinessLine that the ‘type certification’ was approved by the DGCA in the last few days...

...The 19-seater aircraft can fly up to 700 km on full load and is capable of flying at night. This is a non-pressurised aircraft and is ideal for regional flights. It is a multi-purpose aircraft which can be used to ferry VVIPs, business people to their plants, and also be used as an air ambulance, said HAL officials...

https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...ivilian-dornier-takes-off/article10000625.ece

Finally, To Make A Plane And Fly It
11 JANUARY 2018

Back in the 1980s, the diminutive Dornier 228 (Do-228) was part of a fleet that connected some remote corners of the country. Now, three decades later—and after a couple of ambitious homegrown civilian aircraft projects—the Dornier can possibly lay claim to be the first light transport aircraft for civilian use that will be fully manufactured in India. That’s because the aircraft recently received a type certification from the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) which would allow it to resume civilian duties. It’s a second innings of sorts for the 19-seater airplane manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL)...

...HAL reckons the upgraded version, Do-228-201, is best suited under the Make in India category for UDAN. Its chairman T. Suvarna Raju has previously said that the company sees ‘big business opportunity in this segment for the next 10 years’. People in the know claim that around 15 agencies, many of them domestic airlines, have shown interest...

...With the UDAN scheme, the government hopes to stimulate air travel by connecting small towns and with concessions on fares—operators have to cap the fare of some seats at Rs 2,500 for an hour-long flight. In the first phase, five operators including Air India’s arm Alliance Air, Air Odisha, Spicejet, Turbo Megha and Capt G.R. Gopinath’s Deccan Charters have been awarded 128 routes connecting 43 airports. The bidding for the second phase concluded sometime ago...

https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/finally-to-make-a-plane-and-fly-it/299696

So while Saras NG is still on the drawing board and requires at least 3 years for development, let alone production start and civil certifications, HAL and the Do 228 are already in the game and offering an "Indian" option, to a market of around 100 aircrafts.

And since we now got some specs of the Saras NG, I thought it might be interesting to have a proper comparison:

(HAL gives the maximum range of Do 228 in Km/hr for whatever reasons, if somebody has an explanation, please let me know why)

 

[Trololo]

Why is the Saras' vertical stabilizer peppered with an obnoxious number of rivets?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Some Activity on RTA front.
@abingdonboy

 

[HariPrasad-1]

NAL Saras already has several competitors for civilian market. Also, Saras has a crew of 3,including a flight engineer which is not present for most modern aircrafts of same class. Unless Saras get rid of the flight engineer or provide a great "Mileage",IMHO,saras doesn't have much of a future in civilian market,though i would be happy to be proven wrong.

Saras is already 30% cheaper than other contemporary aircrafts which are of 60 to 65 crore of cost. Saras shall be 45 crore to 50 crore of cost. It is totally Desi. Money will go to our companies only.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

It is actually a waste of money to copy. You will always be behind making obsolete uncompetitive products. China spent tens of billions copying the Western auto industry products but now, Chinese will not even buy Chinese brand autos.

Yes, Look at TATAs. Bloody they have come up with some awesome vehicles at @$$ kicking rate. Tiago, Tigor and now nexon. Great range of vehicle at a great price.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Do-228 costs 60 crores and 85000(operational costs) per hour with 7000 hrs before TBO.

The operational expenses of aircraft includes crew cost, maintenance costs, airport infrastructure costs, marketing, landing and parking charges, and distribution costs

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.bu...-aircraft-to-prospective-buyers/1/263270.html

Saras should do better than the numbers.

Any civil aviation gurus, please do a CBA(rough numbers are more than enough). I just want to get the picture.

What are the disadvantages of making Saras in Single pilot configuration!?
Old version has roughly 1300 km with half load and 600km with full load.(wiki data and assuming 45 min fuel load)

The data seems wrong. I saw a weight to range graph at mach 0.6 speed. Doubling weight shall reduce range by 60%. so in my estimate (6000 kg empty and 8000 kg loaded weight ) should increase/decrease range 20% at 6000 kg empty weight.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

hv a look guys................................................

Short take off is very impressive give the fact that these engines do not have mechanism such as afterburner.

 

[dssrikanth]

Govt. shold make new corp.similar to Brahmos corp.with Tata or Mahindra etc and develop amphibious version with improved suitably modified HTFE engine.

 

[AMCA]

A Closer Look At "Saras", India's First Home-Made Passenger Plane
All India Written by Pallava Bagla
The Saras project was resurrected in 2016 after a test plane crashed in 2009. The 7,000-kg plane has made two successful test flights this year
Updated : March 25, 2018 19:32 IST

Story Highlights

• Saras is a 19-seater turboprop aircraft
• The plane was designed by National Aerospace Laboratories in Bengaluru
• It had crashed once during testing in 2009, killing two air force pilots

Bengaluru: Starting after nearly a seven-year gap, the development of the first indigenous passenger and transport plane, Saras, is firmly back on track. The 7000-kg aircraft is now being tested by the pilots of the Indian Air Force and has made two successful test flights this year. The 19-seater turboprop aircraft could help fulfil Prime Minister Narendra Modi's dream of helping "people who wear hawai chappals" to take a "hawai jahaz".

Production is expected to start in 2022. Saras is expected to cost Rs. 45 crore -- cheaper than what India currently pays. A comparable Dornier plane costs Rs. 60 crore.

The development of Saras, which began 18 years ago, was stopped in 2009 after it crashed during a test flight and two pilots died. Work started again in 2016 at Bengaluru's National Aerospace Laboratories.

Jitendra J Jadhav, the chief of National Aerospace Laboratories, told NDTV that they have found that the crash was caused by a procedural mistake, not a design or manufacturing glitch. But there were a "lot of design deficiencies, which have been rectified quickly by our team, mainly those handling quality and controllability of the aircraft and digital avionics," he added.

"The Saras we have flown now is in fact better than the earlier prototype. There have been several design improvements which NAL as the designer has incorporated in this aircraft, said Air Vice Marshall Sandeep Singh.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has been identified as the production agency for the military version

Union Science Minister Harsh Vardhan said the project was dumped by the previous government, even though the Directorate General of Civil Aviation had "exonerated the aircraft from any design flaw or poor-quality production". No effort was made to revive the project, he said.

The Saras Mk 2 will be ideal for a variety of applications -- like aerial search, survey, disaster management, border patrol, coast guard, ambulance and other community services. It would also be useful to establish commuter connectivity as air taxi and executive transport under the Udaan scheme, the minister added.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will be the production agency for the military version of Saras, while the production of civil version will be given to a private player, officials of the NAL said. India needs 120-160 aircraft -- civil and military - over the next 10 years.

According to NAL, the aircraft available in the international market are of 1970s technology, such as Beechcraft 19000D, Dornier-228 and Embraer EMB 110. They have higher fuel consumption, lower speed, unpressurised cabin and high operating cost. They are also unsuitable for operations from hot and high-altitude airfields.

In comparison, the upgraded Saras Mk2 has considerable drag and weight reduction with unique features like high cruise speed, lower fuel consumption, short landing and take-off distance and low cabin noise. It is also operable from high and hot airfield and the cabin is pressurized, the officials said.

After India began its light transport aircraft project, Russia, China, the US, Indonesia and Poland have launched programmes for development of next generation 19-seater aircraft

 

[Rahul Singh]

As per DProP 2018. India to build 80-100 aircraft within next 7 years which is by 2024-25.

So project RTA is very much alive and running.

@sayareakd. Plz, include RTA in thread's title. Thank you.

 

[rockrocky]

A Closer Look At "Saras", India's First Home-Made Passenger Plane