Myth of PLAN's Power

[tony4562]

There is a huge difference between 'produced' and 'assembled'. There is absolutely no evidence that systems like AK-100 were ever license-produced in India. India lacks the industry base to produce the millions of components that are required for a modern weapon system,therefore the so-called licens production in India really amounts to nothing more than just reassembling the major components, IKEA style. India has trouble putting together a rifle, and India does not really have anend-to-end eletronics industry to speak of, how would you convince anyone that BEL makes the sonar all by itself? No chance, these days even russian weapons are full of components sourced from US, Japan, China and/or european countries that have a real industry.

 

[Yijiuliuer]

Agreed. All of these are license manufactured in India. Fact is there is no plan to build equivalent systems because these work.

I think, correct me if I am mistaken, this is logically faulty, if you need to manufacture any new ones under license, you still need to manufacture it right?
please enlighten me where did you get something already work if you still cannot make this something.

 

[p2prada]

I agree. But then in terms of modern, open ocean capable, escort class vessels, the PLAN outnumbers the IN more than 2:1. By that measure, the PLAN is much more capable of operating in the Indian Ocean than the Indian Navy is of operating in the Pacific.

If PLAN power is a myth, then IN power is negligible at best. It goes both ways...

This thread is just a flame war in the process of happening.

2:1 is not a big advantage. Not like how PLAN is being demonised by IN as a massive enemy with far more ships (like Tony's numbers on Frigates) than it really is.

In terms of Frigates we are the same, 3 Shivaliks, 3 Brahmaputras and 5 Talwars. Maybe add 5 Raputs to this list because the capability is very similar to a modern frigate. That's 16 ships vs 17 Type 054/054As. However there is still a major tonnage difference if we consider the Rajputs and Shivaliks are heavier.

Unfortunately due to delays our P-15As are late, while you have 11 ships in comparison to our 3 Delhi class. So, in this case, advantage PLAN. Nevertheless our ships are more ASW and ASuW capable than PLAN ships where the newest destroyers are focused on AAW.

So, what the author was really saying is that the PLAN isn't like the USN and is not impossible to catch up even with our current plans.

Beyond that a 2:1 size difference isn't a major advantage. If you want to control the world's trade routes through the Indian ocean, then that advantage won't be much since you have to leave behind a lot of it back in your own waters. However if the USN brings in a CBG or two into the Indian Ocean they pretty much control the area.

 

[p2prada]

I think, correct me if I am mistaken, this is logically faulty, if you need to manufacture any new ones under license, you still need to manufacture it right?
please enlighten me where did you get something already work if you still cannot make this something.

I don't know what you are actually trying to convey, but everything needs to be manufactured, regardless of it being Indian or foreign.

 

[shiphone]

14 DD DDG

4200 tons- Type 052 (112,113)
5800 tons- Type 052B (168 169)
6000 tons- Type 052C (170 171 150) in the near future: 151,152,153
7000 tons- Type 051B (167)
7000 tons- Type 051C (115 116)
7000 tons- Sovremenny (136,137,138,139)

as I said, PLAN are operating 14(not 11) modern DDGs...12 of them are around 6000 tons.........and 4 modified 051 DDG(109 110 165 166--average 25 years in service) 6 original design 051 DDG (108,132,133,134--aboud 32 years in service, and would be replaced by 052C DDG:151,152,153 by the end of 2013 ..163,164 -around 26 years in service).

if you want to counter 5 average 25 years old ,3800 tons Rajput Class as Frigate...I thought we shouldn't ignore the 4 Modified latest batch of 3250 tons 051 class(109 110 165 166)...

and 10 Type 053H3(2250 tons, with 8 SSM, HHQ7 SAM,1 helicopter) 4 Type 053H2G (2250 tons 6SSM, HHQ7 SAM, 1 helicopter) are still the capable ASW vessels in PLAN high see fleet.

--------------------------
4200 tons DDG --Type 052

2250 tons FFG --Type 052H2G and 052H3

3250 tons DDG --Type Modified 051 16 SSMs, HHQ7 SAM without Helicopter Deck

------------------------------------------
today ,the 13th 054A FFG is going to leave the shipyard to enter the active service ...3 more are still under construction ..

No 573 FFG

 

[shiphone]

if you want to counter 5 average 25 years old ,3800 tons Rajput Class as Frigate...I thought we shouldn't ignore the 4 Modified latest batch of 3250 tons 051 class(109 110 165 166)...

correction: Rajput Class' full load displacement should be around 5000 tons

 

[afako]

correction: Rajput Class' full load displacement should be around 5000 tons

Rajput Class armed with Brahmos and under Shivaliks Network Centric Umbrella would be a nightmare for any confronting PLAN flotilla.

Indian ENC has P15, P17, P15A, Rajputs and P17As (in the future). PLAN has to confront this.

For Pakistan, Talwars and P15B are more than enough.

 

[JBH22]

For all that I know is that we are in serious submarine deficit and we might even lose the expertise of operating them while China is building a formidable naval force.

Like it or not Chinese ascent is a fact.

 

[trackwhack]

The plan are sitting ducks for the foreseeable future. By the time they come up with anything that has a chance of stopping bramhos 1 we will be retiring them. India only need to be worried about rabid CCP going nuke on us.

 

[no smoking]

The numbers seem to be wrong for the latest ship classes, 052A and 054A.

But it is true that the fleet is too small for full blue water capabilities for operation in the Indian Ocean.

I agree with you. But if PLAN can't handle the US fleet outside its port, how can you expect them to do anything in the indian ocean?
Today, PLAN's eyes still focus in western pacific. If Indian navy wants to have a fight, you need to come to south china sea.

 

[average american]

In World War II it was air power that determined who ruled the oceans, If you dont have superior airpower you had better have submarines. As far I can tell stealth is going to be the key to airpower land or ocean in the future. No ship is going to be safe from stealth planes stealth drones with antiship missiles and glide bombs.

By adding a small jet engine from the Raytheon Miniature Air Launched Decoy (MALD), a JSOW version, with aerodynamics and ballistics identical to the others and using the same control systems, was tested in 2008, on a C1-model. [3] This will give it approximately 300 mile range.

One B2 could launch more then 100 jet assisted bombs from over 300 miles away at a fleet of ships the glide bombs can hit moving targets.

 

[SilentKiller]

--------------------------
4200 tons DDG --Type 052

Edited Pic, can we get some original pics of warship?

2250 tons FFG --Type 052H2G and 052H3

Edited Pic, can we get some original pics of warship?

No 573 FFG

???

 

[Rahul M]

Seems they have Quoted from my Post. :cool2: ..

hi afako, I hadn't seen your post before now. it's a good post although I would like to point out that the part you have quoted to support your view is from my post in BRF. Bharat Rakshak "¢ View topic - Managing Chinese Threat

@the people who have repeated the PLAN has 'million' battleship nonsense, I request them to have a look at the blog post again.
Saurav Jha's Blog : Guest Post 3: 'Dragon on the High Seas' by Rahul M

specifically, this table.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


it explains why the 051 Luda, 052 Luhu and 051B Luhai can't be considered destroyers by the definition we understand. those are frigates. if those are destroyers then so are the talwars and the shivaliks.
and also why other than 054 ships, none of PLAN's 'frigates' are quite that. there was also a part on sub analysis that didn't appear due to factors beyond my control.

 

[t_co]

There are 4 Type 052C's active, and 2 Type 052D's active. Saurav only counts 2 Type 052Cs.

 

[t_co]

Also, there are 15 Type 054A Jiangkai IIs active, not 4.

 

[Armand2REP]

Forget about counting numbers, look at the state of the fleet.

Submarines: The Kilos are practically out of operation due to poor maintenance and training lacking a support agreement with Russia. Their SSBNs still do not have missiles. Their SSNs are still too noisy to make an effective attack run. The bulk of the fleet is made of Mings that aren't being replaced but for every other boat. Passive sonar, torpedoes and optics are inferior to their Western counterparts. They went begging to Russia to buy Amurs which backs up every contention of their obsolescence.

Aircraft Carrier: It is only as good as the aircraft on its decks and with a 2t payload it is nothing more than an interceptor.

Surface Fleet: While there has been an improvement in AAW capability, the ASW is still decades behind. AAW still is incapable of intercepting missiles like Brahmos and any modern submarine would wreak havoc.

Analysis: While it looks good on paper, PLAN is actually decreasing in size and its capability gap remains.

 

[Rahul M]

There are 4 Type 052C's active, and 2 Type 052D's active. Saurav only counts 2 Type 052Cs.

source ? I used a combo of sinodefence figures and those referred to in wiki articles. the data is from october last year, I doubt the situation has changed so drastically in one year.

btw, saurav didn't write that article, I did. he mentions it quite clearly.

 

[t_co]

source ? I used a combo of sinodefence figures and those referred to in wiki articles. the data is from october last year, I doubt the situation has changed so drastically in one year.

btw, saurav didn't write that article, I did. he mentions it quite clearly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_052C_destroyer#Ships_of_Class

Third PLA Type 052D destroyer ready for service: report｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com

 

[ice berg]

source ? I used a combo of sinodefence figures and those referred to in wiki articles. the data is from october last year, I doubt the situation has changed so drastically in one year.

btw, saurav didn't write that article, I did. he mentions it quite clearly.

You must be a poor reader then.....

Let's talk about what has been launched to date...all of them, including commissioned and those not yet commissioned.

PLAN SURFACE FLEET

Aircraft Carriers (1)
01 CV-16 Liaoning

Landing Platform Dock (3)
03 Type 071 Yuzhao

Landing Ship Tank (26)
09 Type 072 III Yuting II
10 Type 072 II Yuting
07 Type 072 Yukan

Guided missile Destroyers (30)
02 Type 052D Luyang III (?)
06 Type 052C Luyang II
02 Type 052B Luyang
02 Type 051C Luzhou
01 Type 051B Luhai
02 Type 052 Luhu
04 Proj. 956 Sovremenny
11 Type 051 Luda

Guided Missile Frigates (50)
17 Type 054A Jiankai II
02 Type 054 Jiankai
10 Type 053H3 Jiangwei II
04 Type 053H2G Jiangwei
17 Type 053 Jianghu

Offshore Patrol Vessels (90+)
10+ Type 056 Jiangdao
06 Type 037 II Houjian
24 Type 037 IG Houxin
20 Type 037 IS Haiqing
30 Type 037 Hainan

Fast Attack Craft (85+)
85+ Type 022 Houbei

Fleet Support/Replenishment (9)
02 Type 903A Taihu
02 Type 903 Qiandaohu
02 Fuqing
01 Fusu
02 Fuchi

TOTAL: 294 Principle Surface Types

PLAN SUBMARINE FLEET

Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarines (4)
03 Type 094 Jin
01 Type 091 Xia

Nuclear Attack Submarines (10)
04 Type 093+ Shang
02 Type 093 Shang
04 Type 091 Han

Diesel/Electric Submarines (56)
10 Type 039A/B Yuan
12 Proj. 6363/877 Kilo
16 Type 039G/G1 Song
18 Type 035 Ming

TOTAL: 70 Principle submarine types

TOTAL NAVY: 364 Principle Vessel Types

All together, there are only about 20 or so vessels of this group that are not commissioned. In addition, there are numerous vessels building that have not been launched yet.

Now, how many of these are more or less modern? Well, let's take out the following:

07 Type 072 Yukan LSTs
11 Type 051 Luda DDGs
04 Type 053H2G Jiangwei FFGs
17 Type 053 Jianghu FFGs
24 Type 037 IG Houxin OPV
20 Type 037 IS Haiqing OPV
30 Type 037 Hainan OPV
01 Type 091 Xia SSBN
04 Type 091 Han SSN
18 Type 035 Ming SSK

That's a total of 136 vessels, 113 surface and 23 submarines.

This leaves a modern Navy of roughly 228 vessels, of which 181 are surface and 47 are submarines.

PLAN Vessel Inventory - Page 9

 

[Rahul M]

and you seem to have the attention span of a cat.

please read (and re-read) what I wrote to understand why most of PLAN's older destroyers are just frigates and why most of the so-called frigates are corvettes.

off-shore patrol vessels and fast attack craft are completely irrelevant as far as India is concerned.

oh, and a forum post is hardly what I would call a 'source'. neither are unsubstantiated wiki articles.