MRCA news and discussion /feb-june 2009

[A.V.]

hellfired the ZHUK AESA is ready and is tried on the SU-35 refer to the pakfa thread on strategic alliance forum for details on the russian AESA radar and picture.

 

[Triton]

India to begin fighter jet trials

India will soon begin trials of fighter jets competing for one of the world's biggest arms deals, a defence ministry official said, brushing aside speculation the upcoming election could affect the deal.

Last year, six international companies submitted bids to supply India with 126 multi-role fighter jets and bag the $US10-billion contract.

Two US companies, Lockheed Martin Corp and Boeing Co., are competing with Russia's MiG-35, France's Dassault Rafale, Sweden's Saab KAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies for the fighter deal.

Indian media have been reporting that a new government could take a fresh look at the deal after the April/May election, but defence officials said the trial process could begin by end-May.

"The election will not have a bearing on the fighter jet trials, as the Indian Air Force is now working on the modalities before trials and things are moving in the right direction," said defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar.

India is looking to spend more than $US30 billion over the next five years to modernise its largely Soviet-era weapons systems and is also launching its first military spy satellite next year.

Talks between Indian officials and some of the bidders were held last week and would continue before the trials, officials said.

A special technical team from Lockheed Martin Corp had also arrived in India to oversee the company's preparation, company officials said.

The first step will be to train Indian pilots to fly the sophisticated aircraft, before the trials begin.

"We are ready for the trials," Douglas A Hartwick, chief executive officer of Lockheed's Indian operations, told Reuters. "It will take a few weeks of training for the pilots to get used to flying the planes."

Lockheed last year sold six C-130J military transport planes to India for about $US1.1 billion and is now offering its F-16 fighters to India.

Lockheed and its US-based rival Boeing Co, which is offering the "Super Hornets", have emerged as the frontrunners for lucrative contract, air force officials said.

After the training of the Indian pilots, trials to test the planes' manoeuvreability and effectiveness will begin in various weather conditions, officials said.

"It will take a full cycle of season to test the fighters," Kar said.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Lockheed last year sold six C-130J military transport planes to India for about $US1.1 billion and is now offering its F-16 fighters to India.

Lockheed and its US-based rival Boeing Co, which is offering the "Super Hornets", have emerged as the frontrunners for lucrative contract, air force officials said.

I haven't heard any statements about them being frontrunners??

 

[VayuSena1]

6 Jets that have participated in the MRCA the widest choice any country in this world can be offered in case of Jets, can be broadly categorized as below :

In Case of Engines :

1) Single engine : Gripen & F-16

2) Twin Engine's : F-18 SH, Rafale, EF & Mig-35

In Case of Rate :

1) Below $ 50 Million : Mig-35, F-16, Gripen

2) Above $ 50 Million : EF, SH, Rafale.

In Case of Operatibility with Existing Infrastructure :

1) With Existing Infrastructure ( with some changes ) : Mig-35 & Rafale

2) With a Completely new Infrastructure : Gripen, F-16, SH, EF

In Case of Country wise Reputation :

1) Reliable supplier: Russia, France, Sweden,

2) Reliability Problems : Us, European Union ( the british had blocked seaking Helos sent for mid life refit the during Kargil Conflict)

In Case of War Operatibility :

1) War Tested : F-16, F-18, Rafale ( in Afghanistan )

2) Still to go in a War : Gripen, EF, Mig-35

Note : Remember for the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, The Defence Ministry has allocated Rs. 42,000 crore or (Approx. US$10.5 billion)for the purchase & Dollar Rate is not at all Stable.

An excellent assessment, Atul. You have very clearly defined on what basis the Indian government has to selected one or two of these fighter aircraft for the air force.

 

[Triton]

I haven't heard any statements about them being frontrunners??

May be for Kiwis they are the front runners. (check out the source: it from New Zealand) :tank:

 

[VayuSena1]

Payeng,

The Budget for MRCA is allocated & the Cost of an Rafale can get the IAF not one but Two MIG-35.

& Remember an MIG-35 can be fitted with a TV engine....:vehicle_plane:

Well aware of Russia's goodwill to us for so many years myself, I would have loved to agree with you views Atul, However, even when it comes to budgetary constraints, I would prefer a US$ 65 million aircraft on time rather than 2 aircrafts in one's price about a decade late. At present, we need aircraft numbers in order to retain deterrence to either of our adversaries. While the Western front can still be handleed reasonably, in order to counter the Eastern front, we might have to hurry up with the aircraft numbers being inducted. From punctuality point of view, Rafale seems to be a good choice even though its higher price tag as compared to the MiG-35s. Besides, there must have been some arrangement clause for a slightly lesser per unit price since if we choose a single supplier, 200+ aircraft would be a sure shot solid deal for that company and it could definitely expect a future committment from the Indian side.

In short, any one country cannot be fully relied upon. Its the human nature. In 1967, Israelis were dumped last minute by the French. However, since France is only a third or fourth largest supplier minus the Rafale deal at the moment, one large deal would not affect their ego levels with us and instead work in our favor. This Israel-like incident could happen with us if we choose the MiG-35 though since it would make Indian arsenal a total of 85%-90% Russian. The best bet to counter this would be a French twist.

We already have huge deals with Russia at the moment:

1) Su-30 MKI programme upto 2012-13
2) PAK FA programme upto 2014-15.
3) Nuclear submarine deals for the navy.
4) BrahMos-II coming up.
5) MTA deal to replace ageing transport aircraft.
6) Future Main Battle Tank Project with NPO Mashinostroniye.
7) 18 MiG-29 KUBs (similar to MiG-35s in many aspects) with the option of 30 more for navy.

Therefore, I do not think that one MRCA competition should hurt Russia so much. They themselves have agreed that they do not mind us diversifying equipment and that it is upto our will what we choose. This also would keep the new and rather aggressive Russia in check not to make Gorshkov like mistakes and that India is not Algeria, Sudan or Venenzuela.

 

[A.V.]

MIG-35 LOOKS TO BE THE FRONTRUNNER NOW.


Not only is the MiG-35 the only super maneuverable aircraft amidst MMRCA contenders, the Russians are ready to package it with long range weapons they have never offered before.

These include "long-range weapons to attack targets without entering the adversary's air defense zone" say Russian officials.


MiG-35 air display during Aero India 2009 Show. Photo Credit: Vijainder K Thakur/Sawf News
They could be alluding to Vympel R-37 which is designed to shoot down AWACS and AEW&C aircraft. The missile has an operational range between 80-215 nm and features inertial guidance with mid-course update and semi-active and active radar homing.

The missile would represent a potent threat to the SAAB 2000 Erieye AWE&C that Pakistan is acquiring as well as the Chinese AWACS. It would be impossible for the IAF to contemplate surgical strikes without the capability to ensure that Pakistani Erieye don't take to the skies.




The capability that Phazotron officials are quoting for the Phazotron Zhuk-AE AESA radar too is impressive. It can detect fighter-type targets at 160 km, acquire and track up to 30 air targets and simultaneously engage 6 of them.

Interestingly the detection range being quoted by the Russian exactly matches the publicly acknowledged detection range of the AN/APG 79 AESA that equips the F/A-18E Super Hornet. Coincidence? Probably not!

The plot gets thicker. While the AN/APG 79 AESA could well have a higher detection range than what is publicly acknowledged, a Phazotron official I spoke with at Aero India 2009 was quick to point out that the Zhuk-AE's range could be extended dramatically by locating it further back in the nose of the MiG-35, taking advantage of the increased cross section to add TR modules and increase the radiated energy.

Compared to the MiG-35 the F/A-18E has a narrower nose cross section precluding the use of a bigger array. So while the Super Hornet may feature lower observability, especially from fore and aft, its smaller radar antenna could be a limitation.

Incidentally, the rate at which Russians are playing catch-up with the west in AESA technology has surprised most observers, who did not expect them to field a Zhuk-AE like radar so soon. Some experts estimate the Russians could have closed the gap to as little as 5 years, which appears insignificant considering that the MMRCAs could be in service for the next 50 years!

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/56789.aspx

 

[Pintu]

According to the Reuters Uk , India will begin the trials for the fighter jets competing for MRCA deal , the link and the report from the Reuters Uk are as follows:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUKDEL47781120090402?sp=true

India to begin fighter jet trials soon
Thu Apr 2, 2009 10:15am BST

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By Bappa Majumdar

NEW DELHI, April 2 (Reuters) - India will soon begin trials of fighter jets competing for one of the world's biggest arms deals, a defence ministry official said on Thursday, brushing aside speculation the upcoming election could affect the deal.

Last year, six international companies submitted bids to supply India with 126 multi-role fighter jets and bag the $10-billion contract.

Two U.S. companies, Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) and Boeing Co. (BA.N), are competing with Russia's MiG-35, France's Dassault Rafale, Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) KAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies for the fighter deal.

Indian media have been reporting that a new government could take a fresh look at the deal after the April/May election, but defence officials said the trial process could begin by end-May.

"The election will not have a bearing on the fighter jet trials, as the Indian Air Force is now working on the modalities before trials and things are moving in the right direction," said defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar.

India is looking to spend more than $30 billion over the next five years to modernise its largely Soviet-era weapons systems and is also launching its first military spy satellite next year.

Talks between Indian officials and some of the bidders were held last week and would continue before the trials, officials said.

A special technical team from Lockheed Martin Corp had also arrived in India to oversee the company's preparation, company officials said.

The first step will be to train Indian pilots to fly the sophisticated aircraft, before the trials begin.

"We are ready for the trials," Douglas A. Hartwick, chief executive officer of Lockheed's Indian operations, told Reuters. "It will take a few weeks of training for the pilots to get used to flying the planes."

Lockheed last year sold six C-130J military transport planes to India for about $1.1 billion and is now offering its F-16 fighters to India.

Lockheed and its U.S.-based rival Boeing Co, which is offering the "Super Hornets", have emerged as the frontrunners for lucrative contract, air force officials said.

After the training of the Indian pilots, trials to test the planes' manoeuvreability and effectiveness will begin in various weather conditions, officials said.

"It will take a full cycle of season to test the fighters," Kar said. (Editing by Sugita Katyal)

 

[A.V.]

CHECK out the RADAR for MRCA

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?p=7443#post7443

check out the radar details of MRCA here

 

[rock45]

Western

I know it will cost three times the money but I think India should buy western and stay away from Russia's Mig-29 offer. I say Mig-29 because the Mig-35 isn't even built nor is AESA radar, its in testing. India knows all too well what testing means when dealing with the Russians.

Russia's offer of new and improved range air to air missiles again in testing there current AA-12 missile isn't as good as the ARRAAM now why would anybody think they can make a better one? I've been hearing about these new missiles for years and still nothing. The ARRAAM is in testing in New Mexico right now so you can add more range onto to it. Its real, people have seen it. Its not like one of these unknown 'Russian it can do this programs" that never get produced.

An India poster in a different forum drove a point home with me and he made sense. If India bought the F-16 Pakistan been flying them years it would take a long time before India's pilots would be as good and this makes sense to me, nobody wants to start at a disadvantage. But remember the Mig-29 been out for a long time and everybody and their grandmother is trained to fight Fulcrums so there's a flip side. I'm a huge Fulcrum fan and know this great fighter has gotten a bad rap over the years but Russia's base equipment has been surpassed. The close in turning isn't as important as it once was. Gripens, Vipers, Hornets do well in this area to so its not like Fulcrums kick their ass in this every time. And depending on the merge speed, etc, can do it better and all field better missiles then the AA-11. The inside the 20 mile zone isn't a lock for the Fulcrum, it does well in this zone don't get wrong. The 20 miles out to 40 miles is where western radar's and systems + missiles do a little better. Some of the sub systems in the MKI Flankers India has that makes them effective are examples aren't Russian.

India doesn't need pure fighters or interceptors they have Flankers for that they need duel role platforms and Hornets & Vipers do that the best. Most of Russia's air to ground stuff is just at the F-16 Block-40+ stage so were talking 2002 tech here. Rafale, Gripen, both American choices just put out a better product overall.

My gut says India will go with the Mig-29 because of politics and for the cost not because it's a better platform. Buying into the Fulcrum choice because India has 60/70 1986 models for me doesn't cut it, I would hope enough systems etc wouldn't be the same. With Russia you'll never know look at the five year venture India going through with a lousy 20 aircraft Mig-29k order. They don't have the the blue prints for the production line and tech needed just to give to HAL, they have to make it first. And India will pay for it first to make it and design it, and then deploy it. Might as well buy western and get a better product to begin with and get it faster.

Sorry for the long post but I would like to see India go western even if its not American and I mean that.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

We have so many Mig 29s already, it just makes more sense if we get a platform they we are used to and already have a tech support setup.And the fair part is that we will be getting source code for AESA radar....if they ever make it.

MRCA about not just about feeling the vacency. It main purpose is to get advanced technology to IAF.

I don't know how mig-35 compares with rafale in terms of BVR but given its cost,it's pretty much a good deal.

Mig-35 is not at all comparable to Rafale at all when it comes to Air to Air combact. Rafale is said to be better that SH when it comes to Air to Air combact.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

May be for Kiwis they are the front runners. (check out the source: it from New Zealand) :tank:

I think the increased military aid to Pakistan offers a good clue about the MRCA choice, I think US planes have been eliminated or have very little to no chance of winning IMO. I think it will come down to choosing between Rafele and MIG-35 with the edge given to Rafele for many different reasons.

 

[Soham]

I don't see the elimination of Super Hornets for this reason, but it holds true for the vipers.

And we shouldn't rule out the Eurofighter.
Yes, its expensive but our defence budget is hitting the skies.
We should go for European. Its pure business.

 

[SATISH]

But the Eurofighter is more inclined to A2A rather than A2G. So Rafale is a far better choice for me. But the rates of spares is a matter of concern.

 

[Soham]

Here is an excerpt from the link posted at the bottom.


“to the extent practicable, a programme shall be designed to provide reasonable assurances that the recipient is complying with the requirements imposed by the United States Government with respect to the use, transfers, and security of defence articles and monitoring of US arms transfers, and security of defence articles and services.”
FMS:
No retransfers are permitted without Presidential consent. Use is limited to what was mentioned in the sale agreement. Restrictions on the use of equipment transferred as a grant are much stricter. The equipment can be used only by government employees. The equipment has to be returned to the US when no longer required.

Blue..
Exports involving certain sensitive technologies like night vision devices, cruise missiles, remotely piloted vehicles and electronics are given special attention. Close to 500 ‘Blue Lantern’ checks are carried out annually and reports of suspect cases are submitted to the State Department, which may order further intensified monitoring.

‘Golden Sentry’ covers the entire spectrum equipment export i.e., shipping, receiving, use and final disposition. It is generally called ‘cradle-to-grave’ monitoring...It categorises and tracks all exported items under FMS by their serial number on a country by country basis. It is designed to provide assurance that the recipient is complying with the US Government regulations as regards end-use verification of sensitive technologies vulnerable to diversion or misuse.

Level of monitoring depends on the sensitiveness of the equipment and the degree of trust in the host country:-
with EUM Familiarisation Visit, Tiger team, Investigation visits.

"Implications":
A nation getting US equipment is expected to fall in line with US policies and support them. It does affect a country’s freedom to pursue policies as perceived in its own national interests.
Use of IAF MRCA for IN can be done only after obtaining concurrence from the US Government.
The US can demand ground inspection to reassure itself. It certainly compromises national security plans as deployment details of equipment reveal operational plans.
US retains the right to verify ‘credible reports’ that such items have been used for purposes other than agreed upon.
No commitment by the US Government to honor all provisions of the sale deed and who can abrogate a sovereign assurance by citing US laws and sanctions.
*Section 505 of the US Foreign Assistance Act 0f 1961 authorises US officials to attend military exercises to observe training. It is a significant provision as the observers get to learn recipient nation’s operational doctrine with regard to the exploitation of equipment and details of the formations assigned said equipment.

The U.S EUM is their law and will not be changed for Indian deals, it is universal.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2008/03/end-use-monitoring-regime.html

 

[Soham]

For the sake of a comic releif..
Check out the desperation in SAAB...they are advertising at the Bus-stops !

 

[Soham]

Some specs of the Eurofighter :

 

[Soham]

 

[Soham]

 

[Soham]