MRCA news and discussion /feb-june 2009

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by nitesh, Feb 12, 2009.

?

Which Aircraft should win

Poll closed Jan 13, 2011.
  1. Dassault Rafale

    28 vote(s)
    38.9%
  2. Eurofighter Typhoon

    7 vote(s)
    9.7%
  3. Mikoyan MiG-35

    15 vote(s)
    20.8%
  4. JAS 39 Gripen

    6 vote(s)
    8.3%
  5. Lockheed Martin F-16 IN

    2 vote(s)
    2.8%
  6. Boeing Hornet E/F Superhornet F-18

    14 vote(s)
    19.4%
  1. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    very nice...the one thing that the Gripen has over the others is datalink...with it you can transfer a lot of info between the planes..situational awareness wins the day.
     
  2. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    I like Gripen but I don't know if politically too many things can be gained by having sweden win, My top two picks are rafaele and Superhornet.
     
  3. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Gripen weapon options

    [​IMG]
     
  4. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    okay lethalforce, I guess we are gonna have to pick sides. I will rep it for the Eurofighter :35:

    [​IMG]

    General characteristics

    * Crew: 1 (operational aircraft) or 2 (training aircraft)
    * Length: 15.96 m (52 ft 5 in)
    * Wingspan: 10.95 m (35 ft 11 in)
    * Height: 5.28 m (17 ft 4 in)
    * Wing area: 50 m² (538 ft²)
    * Empty weight: 11,000 kg (24,250 lb)
    * Loaded weight: 15,550 kg (34,280 lb)
    * Max takeoff weight: 23,500 kg (51,800 lb)
    * Powerplant: 2× Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan
    o Dry thrust: 60 kN (13,500 lbf) each
    o Thrust with afterburner: 90 kN (20,000 lbf) each

    Performance

    * Maximum speed:
    o At altitude: Mach 2+ (2,495 km/h, 1550 mph)[138][139]
    o At sea level: Mach 1.2
    o Supercruise: Mach 1.1[137]-1.5[140]
    * Range: 1,390 km (864 mi)
    * Ferry range: 3,790 km (2,300 mi)
    * Service ceiling: 19,812 m (65,000 ft)
    * Rate of climb: >315 m/s[141][142] (62,000 ft/min[143])
    * Wing loading: 311 kg/m² (63.7 lb/ft²)
    * Thrust/weight: 1.16
    Armament

    * Gun: 1x 27 mm Mauser BK-27 cannon 150 rounds
    * Air-to-Air missiles: AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-132 ASRAAM, AIM-120 AMRAAM, IRIS-T and in the future MBDA Meteor
    * Air-to-Ground missiles: AGM-84 Harpoon, AGM-88 HARM, ALARM, Storm Shadow (AKA "Scalp EG"), Brimstone, Taurus KEPD 350, Penguin and in the future AGM Armiger
    * Bombs: Paveway 2, Paveway 3, Enhanced Paveway, JDAM, HOPE/HOSBO
    * Laser designator, e.g. LITENING pod




    Also, crap load of PDF files

    http://images.google.com/imgres?img...channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N
     
  5. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Eurofighter is a good plane but TOT maybe difficult many countries jointly produce parts for the plane.
     
  6. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Rafale Converted Into A Satellite Launcher

    November 5, 2008: Following the example of Russia and the United States, France plans to use its Rafale fighter to launch small, low orbit, satellites. The ten ton launcher would be hung from three of the Rafales hard points (one on the fuselage and two on the wings), and be able to put a 300 pound satellite into an 800 kilometers orbit.

    The U.S. and Russia pioneered this sort of thing three decades ago. Russia developed an ASAT (Anti-Satellite Missile), in response to the United States program that actually resulted in the destruction of a low flying (555 kilometers up) satellite. Russia has since revised this system to launch low flying satellites using Su-30s fighters or Tu-22m bombers.

    The United States ASAT program used a specially equipped F-15 to zoom to a high altitude, and launch a 1.2 ton ASM-135A missile, which then homed in on the satellite and destroyed it. The missile had two stages, plus a homing warhead. Development began in 1977. The first, and only, live test took place in 1985, when a worn out communications satellite was destroyed by the missile. Shortly thereafter, Congress shut down the program, believing that ASAT violated treaties regarding the military use of space. This did not discourage the Russians, who began working on their own ASAT after the U.S. program was cancelled. Progress on the Russian ASAT was kept secret, although it was known (or believed) to exist.

    When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, many previously secret Russian weapons projects were revealed, if only briefly, and often in little detail. One of them was the Russian ASAT. Now, the Kazcosmos company, in Kazakhstan, which developed the Russian ASAT (in cooperation with a Moscow based research institute), is putting together a satellite launching operation. The Russian ASAT used a MiG-31 recon aircraft to test launch the missile. Such a system can only launch small satellite (no more than a few hundred pounds.) But such "microsats" have become quite popular, due to cheaper and more effective miniature electronics. Many regular satellite launches now include one or more microsats as part of a multi satellite package.


    [​IMG]
     
  7. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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  8. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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  9. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Rafele weapon options

    [​IMG]
     
  10. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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  11. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Boeing plans Super Hornet offer to India

    http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2005/06/16/199625/boeing-plans-super-hornet-offer-to-india.html

    Boeing plans Super Hornet offer to India

    Boeing will not offer the F-15 Eagle for India's forthcoming fighter needs but would like to offer the latest Block 2 version of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the company said at the show yesterday.

    Speaking at an update on the Super Hornet, Chris Chadwick, vice-president F/A-18 Program with Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, said the US and Indian governments were holding talks over what technology could be released for the approaching competition for 126 multirole fighters.

    "What we would like to offer, if the government allows, is the Block 2 capability. The F-15 will not be offered."

    The Block 2 includes advanced systems such as the APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array, Advanced Targeting FLIR and Multi-Functional Information Distribution System.

    US military aircraft sales prospects for both India and Pakistan were rekindled in March when the US government announced a major shift in its arms trade policy to the sub-continent. Pakistan had been under sanctions since 1990, while India has traditionally turned to France or Russia to replenish its inventory.

    Both Boeing and Lockheed Martin urgently need orders for the F-15 and F-16 Fighting Falcon to prevent production line gaps from 2008. The Indian request for proposals is expected this autumn, with the winning aircraft likely to be chosen in late 2008 or early 2009. Co-production with India is likely.
     
  12. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    The Competitors: Analysis

    The Competitors: Analysis


    Lightweight Fighters

    F-16

    [​IMG]

    F-16 Fighting Falcon (Lockheed, USA). Presumably, Lockheed’s “Block 70” offering would be an upgraded version of the F-16E Block 60 “Desert Falcon” currently serving with the UAE. Strengths include the widest multi-role capability among lightweight fighters; its AN/APG-80 AESA radar; the addition of integrated IRST capability; the widest choice of proven avionics and weapon systems; a long record of proven service so all issues are known; and widespread compatibility with potential allies in Asia and the Middle East who also fly F-16s. The combination of an AESA radar on a less expensive platform is also good news for cruise missile defense efforts, if that’s considered a priority.

    Even so, the Indian Air Force has never seemed very interested in the F-16. Weaknesses include the fact that Pakistan also flies F-16s; the fact it’s a new aircraft type, so the entire support infrastructure would have to be developed; and the difficulty Lockheed would have complying with industrial offset provisions given their lack of penetration in India. The MMRCA RFP’s delays may have helped Lockheed Martin by allowing them ample time to find arrangements with Indian firms, and there are reports that the USA is pushing this option because of the political reassurance factor. While an F-16 E/F Block 60+ would have a number of important advantages over Pakistan F-16 A/Bs and even its new Block 50/52 aircraft, the common underlying aircraft type would probably take some of the edge off of the deal from Pakistan’s point of view.

    JAS-39 Gripen

    [​IMG]

    JAS-39 Gripen (Saab, Sweden; marketed by Britain’s BAE). The Gripen is a true 4th+ generation lightweight fighter and significantly more capable than category competitors like the F-16 and Mirage 2000, though the MiG-35 may give it a run for the money. Other strengths include a wide choice of integrated weapons and pods; reasonable purchase cost; the fact that it has also been designed for exceptional cost of ownership; and the ability operate from roads instead of runways if necessary. The JAS-39’s drawbacks include its short range; the fact it’s a new aircraft type for the IAF; and a low volume of international orders to date that raises questions about the platform’s ability to modernize over the next 30-40 years.

    As an interesting side note, the JAS-39 A-D models’ use of a modified GE F404 engine indicates that it could be modifiable to use India’s Kaveri engine or successor. After all, the Tejas LCA will also use F404 engines until an Indian substitute is ready, if indeed it ever is. The next-generation Gripen Demo/NG model Saab is now offering prospective customers uses the GE F414G engine as its base, however, and is likely to need a higher level of engine performance than the existing Kaveri project can deliver. Gripen NG also begins to address the aircraft’s range limitations, and would include an AESA radar among its other enhancements.

    With respect to industrial offsets, Saab has an excellent record in countries like South Africa, Hungary, The Czech Republic et. al. The Gripen’s acceptance carries no spin-off geopolitical benefits, however, and that last weakness may prove to be the plane’s most critical hindrance in this competition.

    MiG-29OVT MAKS 2005
    MiG-29OVT/-35

    [​IMG]

    This modified MiG-29 includes improved radar and avionics that give it multi-role capability, extra fuel in a new aircraft “spine,” and thrust-vectoring engines a la India’s SU-30MKIs. Strengths include compatibility with the existing and future MiG-29 fleet, and its ability to carry advanced Russian missiles already in service like the revolutionary AA-11/R-73 Archer and longer range AA-12/R-77 “AMRAAMski.” The presence of MiG-29 infrastructure and a new plant for license-building RD-33 Series III engines in India also makes compliance with industrial offset requirements easier.

    The MiG-29’s biggest weaknesses were short range, engines that produce telltale smoke (very bad in air combat) and lack of true multi-role capability; the MiG-35 largely fixes these issues, and may even add an AESA radar of its own if Phazotron-NIIR can have its new Zhuk-MAE ready in time. Technology sharing and co-production are also considered to be strengths; as one Indian officer put it: “Russians have their problems of delayed projects and unreliable spare supply but they give access to everything, unlike the Americans.” He’s referring to the IAF’s not-so-great experience with India’s existing MiG-29s, which have had maintenance problems in addition to their other deficits.

    Remaining weaknesses in the MiG-35 bid include difficulties India is having with Russian firms over the refit of its new carrier, and over its orders for SU-30MKIs. There has also been legitimate speculation about the future viability of the MiG-29 family platform, which has been eclipsed in many ways by the SU-30. Algeria’s canceled $1.8 billion order adds further risk to the platform, which is mostly active via refurbishment programs in Russia, India, and other countries. India has made the MiG-29K its future carrier aircraft, but doubling down to add the MiG-35 would make India the first customer for both variants – neither of which has other sale opportunities on the near horizon. That could be spun as a positive industrial opportunity, but from a cost and risk perspective it’s a negative.
     
  13. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    Competition analysis, continued

    Mid-Range Fighters

    Eurofighter Typhoon

    [​IMG]

    Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS/BAE, Europe & Britain). A fourth generation aircraft currently optimized for the air-air role through its performance characteristics and what is by all accounts an excellent pilot interface. Reportedly has “supercruise” capability of being able to exceed Mach 1 without using afterburners, though some analysts have cast doubt on how sustainable that is. Some observers believe that aside from the F-22A Raptor, the Eurofighter is the next-best in-service air superiority aircraft world-wide, though the 2007 Indra Dhanush exercise that matched it up against the SU-30MKI makes that a rather debatable claim. Tranche 2 upgrades are giving it more multi-role capability, and India’s delay has given those developments more time to mature.
    With respect to industrial offsets, BAE already has an order from India for 66 BAE Hawk trainers, 42 of which are being built in India. EADS Airbus might also be able to contribute on that front.

    Weaknesses include the aircraft’s $100+ million expense, which may stretch India’s budget to the breaking point; the fact it’s a new aircraft type for the IAF so the entire support infrastructure would have to be developed; its current lack of an AESA radar; its lack of naval capability; and the non-existent geopolitical benefits of selecting it. Given the Eurofighter’s performance and cost range, simply buying more SU-30MKIs would appear to make far more sense.


    F/A-18

    [​IMG]

    F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet (Boeing, USA). Highly upgraded version of the F/A-18 A-D Hornet, enlarged and given new engines and avionics. Commonality between the Hornet and Super Hornet is oly about 25%. Strengths include its powerful AN/APG-79 AESA radar, which has drawn significant interest from India. This radar could allow Super Hornets to play a unique role in India’s fighter fleet as versatile “quarterbacks” (or better yet, “cricket captains”) due to their radar’s performance and information sharing abilities. Other advantages include carrier capability; a very wide range of integrated weapons; a design that is proven in service and in combat; and complete assurance in its future upgrade spiral given the US Navy’s commitment to it. The existence of a dedicated electronic warfare variant as of 2009 in the EA-18G Growler may also be a potent motivator, as long-range strike and carrier strike will increasingly require this unique capability. Last but certainly not least, this choice offers an opportunity to create an early “win” which would strengthen India’s new alliance with the USA and prove its new status in the world. After all, when clearance for the aircraft was given, no other nation had even been offered the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet.

    Since then, of course, close American ally Australia has bought 24 F/A-18F Block IIs in a controversial A$ 6 billion purchase. Australia’s deployment of Super Hornets gives the platform an additional selling point in the “allied commonality” department, and Boeing’s planned $1.5 billion investment in India’s aerospace market may help deal with defense industrial offset issues. The Super Hornet’s Boeing connection adds many industria options in the civil aircraft market as well.

    Weaknesses of the Super Hornet platform include the aircraft’s expense. Given the costs to other customers so far, it seems unlikely that Boeing can deliver 126 F/A-18 E/F Block II aircraft for just $10.2 billion, let alone aircraft plus lifetime support. The Super Hornet also offers poorer aerodynamic performance than the Eurofighter or Rafale due to inherent airframe limitations. Finally, it’s a new aircraft type for the IAF, so the entire support infrastructure would have to be developed from the ground up.


    Rafale

    [​IMG]

    Rafale (Dassault, France). Advantages include demonstrated carrier capability in the Rafale-M, which could be a very big factor if the RFP includes that as a requirement. The aircraft offers exceptional ordnance capacity for its size, and can have its range extended via conformal fuel tanks (unknown to DID whether this has been tested on the Rafale-M). It also offers superior aerodynamic performance over the F/A-18 family. The Rafale claims “supercruise” capability, but observers are skeptical and it has been challenging to demonstrate this with the Snecma R88-2 engine. Installing the Kaveri engine, as French firms have reportedly offered, may be possible. This would give India’s indigenous jet engine project a broader fleet of aircraft that would amortize its costs better – albeit at a likely performance penalty. The Rafale also offers some equipment, maintenance and spares commonalities with existing Mirage 2000 fleet, which would probably increase if India’s Mirage 2000s are modernized in future.

    Weaknesses include the fact that the Rafale has yet to win a single export competition worldwide; the need for additional funds and work to integrate many non-French weapons if one wishes to use them on the Rafale; and its lack of an AESA radar. The Rafale’s failure to win export competitions means more than a perception of “also-ran” status – as DID noted in an update to our Singapore fighter coverage (the Rafale lost to the F-15SG Strike Eagle), it is already forcing cuts in future Rafale procurement to pay for modernization, a dynamic that could get worse over the next 30 years.

    F-35

    [​IMG]

    F-35 Joint Stike Fighter (Lockheed-led, multinational). In February 2006, India’s Chief Air Marshal recently specificaly noted that the JSF was not in their plans for this buy, a likelihood that DID’s analysis had noted earlier due to probable lack of availability before 2015. The August 2007 MRCA RFP confirmed this.

    If it were flying today, the F-35B STOVL variant would probably be by far the best fit for India’s requirements. The planes would be carrier-capable from all of India’s naval air platforms, including smaller carriers the size of INS Viraat (ex-Hermes) or LHD amphibious assault ships, and could use roads and short field runways on land for maximum operational flexibility. F-35 JSFs would sport ultra-advanced systems that include the AN/APG-81 AESA radar, and incredibly advanced sensor systems and electronics that would make it India’s most capable reconnaissance asset and even a potential electronic warfare aircraft. Other strengths would include greater stealth than any other competitor, which is critical for both air-air dogfights and strikes on defended targets. The Super Hornet may be able to fill the role of an aerial cricket captain, but the JSF is more like Sachin Tendulkar.

    India has been invited to F-35 events. With potential US order numbers dropping, India might even be accepted into the program if they pushed for it. The F-35’s killer weakness was timing. Its advanced systems, established industrial partnership structure and program procurement policies could also make it nearly impossible to meet India’s industrial offset rules.


    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ighter-competition-changes-01989/#competitors
     
  14. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Gripen Supercruises

    http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations/News/2009/090121_gripen_supercruises.htm

    Gripen Supercruises

    [​IMG]

    During a test flight today the Gripen Demo aircraft proved its ability to “Supercruise”, the ability to fly supersonic without the use of afterburner which results in fuel savings and an increase in range.
    1/21/2009 | During last Autumn, the Gripen Demo performed 40 sorties as part of the development programme that focuses on opening up the flight envelope regarding speed, altitude, angle-of-attack and loads. This year, the testing has continued at the same high tempo. Today’s supercruise flight is part of the ongoing high speed supersonic testing that will include supersonic flights, with different load alternatives.
    Saab test pilot Magnus Ljungdahl flew the Gripen Demonstrator aircraft in supercruise.
    “The flight was conducted over the Baltic Sea, my altitude was 28, 000 feet and the speed achieved was above Mach 1.2. Without using afterburner I maintained the same speed until I ran out of test area and had to head back to the Saab Test Flight Centre in Linköping.”

    “Important milestone”

    “To show potential customers that Gripen can supercruise is an important milestone”, said Gripen International Marketing Director Bob Kemp, “and to perform this activity only nine months after the Gripen Demonstrator was shown in public for the first time, is something that few, if any aircraft can beat.”
    The Gripen Demo aircraft is a flying test platform for the next generation of Gripen and for the further development of the present Gripen C/D aircraft. Together with a ground-based test rig, the Gripen Demonstrator will develop and prove the essential systems and capabilities for the future, including its more powerful General Electric F414G engine, an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, advanced communications and electronic warfare systems.
     
  15. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Gripen offers India technology for multi-role fighter jets

    http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...gy-for-multi-role-fighter-jets_100148144.html


    Gripen offers India technology for multi-role fighter jets

    New Delhi, Jan 28 (IANS) Heating up the race for the contract to supply 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force, Gripen, a Swedish firm, has proposed to India transfer of technology to become “an independent manufacturer” of its own fighter jets.Looking forward to the trials for the medium multi-role combat aircraft, the Swedish manufacturer of Gripen, SAAB International has favoured “extensive transfer of technology” well in excess of 60 percent requirement to boost India’s indigenous capabilities in this regard.

    “Gripen would like to provide strategic leverage, operational dominance and define future capability of India by becoming an independent manufacturer. We would help India in designing and manufacturing their own aircraft,” country head of SAAB International Jan Widerstrom told IANS.

    “We have offered transfer of technology levels far exceeding the RFP (request for proposal) requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF). An early transfer of technology would be ensured to maximize indigenous capabilities,” Widerstrom said.

    The deal is estimated to cost $10 billion. The contract will include licensed manufacture for 108 fighters by the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and offset clauses for supplying sub-systems and components to the winning bidder by Indian aerospace firms in the public and private sectors. The selected manufacturer will have to supply 18 aircraft in flyaway condition in batches.

    The technical evaluation of the bidders is complete and will soon be followed by trials.

    “Three aircraft will be brought to India, including two-seaters and one seater. The trials will be conducted for dry, dry and humid, and humid conditions,” Widerstrom added.

    Apart from the Swedish Gripen, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16, the French Rafale and the Russian MiG-35 are also in the fray.

    The Swedish company claims to have an edge over the competitors due to its “low cycle cost” and “range and payload capabilities” beyond IAF’s operational requirements.

    “We are recognized as very economical solution. Gripen has a very low life cycle cost,” Widerstrom said.
     
  16. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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  17. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    F-18 superhornet

    [​IMG]
     
    tija likes this.
  18. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Eurofighter

    [​IMG]
     
  19. s_bman

    s_bman Regular Member

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    guys is there any jamming pod on eurofighter:confused:
     
  20. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    I know its got a PIRATE system...

    PIRATE

    The CAPTOR is an active system, it operates by transmitting radio waves. Whenever the radar is operational the power it outputs can be detected by an enemy using a Radar Warning Receiver (RWR). Even Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) radar's such as the American APG-77 or European AMSAR risk detection. There are really only two ways to solve this problem. One method (which Eurofighter also makes extensive use of) is to utilise data gathered from other platforms such as AWACS, Nimrod, JSTARS, ASTOR or even other fighters. However this requires such platforms to be available and for the datalinks from those platforms to be jam resistant.
    Passive detection

    An alternative method is to use an on-board passive system for detection. The PIRATE, or Passive Infra Red Airborne Tracking Equipment is a 2nd generation Imaging Infra Red (IIR) system and performs this duty of passive detection. PIRATE is constructed by the EuroFirst consortium led by Pilkington-Thorn Optronics (now Thales Optronics).
     

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