MRCA news and dicussions Part III

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Armand2REP

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This totally does not concern India. You are forgetting that ours is a buyer's market. We can buy whatever plane we want to and nobody is going to deny us the Meteor.
But it does concern India. The MRCA's high industrial offset plays a significant role in what price and what level of ToT countries are willing to supply to India. Eurofighter consortium includes many countries that are in a phase of protectionism as their economies face high unemployment and declining defence jobs. EADS pushing the Eurofighter has to face many conflicting interests as to what countries are willing to sacrifice to get the deal done and there wasn't a concencus on what Germany was willing to give up versus UK, Italy, and Spain until a much worse offer came into being than Germany wanted. Spain, Italy and UK are facing deep financial crises while Germany is in a better position pushing the deal. Eurofighter GmBH has to raise their price to make it worthwhile for these countries to play ball with Germany to get Eurofighter pushed with so much workshare that will be heading to India; vise versa they offer less ToT for their shares.

Where Gallois comes into the picture is looking at what is the easiest course of action for EADS to make money without sending a political rift within the consortium and the company. Eurofighter cannot be offered without a huge monetary concession from India to make it worthwhile for partners to meet the industrial offset in their current economic climate. With a 46.3% stake in Dassault, EADS has a very easy way out to make a profit with little risk. That is to undermiine Eurofighters bid in preference for Rafale. EADS makes money with Rafale but doesn't have to provide much in the offsets to India as the French state will have to suck up the industrial costs. Sarkozy is at the point of desperation to push Rafale and will offer whatever ToT is required to seal the deal. Eurofighter does not have the one-state leverage to offer such and Gallois will see the best outcome for his interests.

As far as Meteor, it is not part of the offer for MRCA from any of the members. It will be an option at a later date. There will be no objection for sale from MBDA as it is straight money in everyones pocket. ToT of Meteor is a totally different story.
 

p2prada

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But it does concern India. The MRCA's high industrial offset plays a significant role in what price and what level of ToT countries are willing to supply to India. Eurofighter consortium includes many countries that are in a phase of protectionism as their economies face high unemployment and declining defence jobs. EADS pushing the Eurofighter has to face many conflicting interests as to what countries are willing to sacrifice to get the deal done and there wasn't a concencus on what Germany was willing to give up versus UK, Italy, and Spain until a much worse offer came into being than Germany wanted. Spain, Italy and UK are facing deep financial crises while Germany is in a better position pushing the deal. Eurofighter GmBH has to raise their price to make it worthwhile for these countries to play ball with Germany to get Eurofighter pushed with so much workshare that will be heading to India; vise versa they offer less ToT for their shares.

Where Gallois comes into the picture is looking at what is the easiest course of action for EADS to make money without sending a political rift within the consortium and the company. Eurofighter cannot be offered without a huge monetary concession from India to make it worthwhile for partners to meet the industrial offset in their current economic climate. With a 46.3% stake in Dassault, EADS has a very easy way out to make a profit with little risk. That is to undermiine Eurofighters bid in preference for Rafale. EADS makes money with Rafale but doesn't have to provide much in the offsets to India as the French state will have to suck up the industrial costs. Sarkozy is at the point of desperation to push Rafale and will offer whatever ToT is required to seal the deal. Eurofighter does not have the one-state leverage to offer such and Gallois will see the best outcome for his interests.
So, you really think the EF consortium will take silly risks and lose a multi billion dollar deal and access to a market like India? Politics happens in every deal, internal and external. But, it doesn't mean businessmen will lose the smell of money. Germany has offered India much more than what France has offered than includes manufacturing parts and servicing EF-2000s other than our own. Will France let India maintain and upgrade UAE Rafales. No.

ToT is not something that is as important as the delivery of a good product. ToT can come over the course of many years, but it will come. As long as India has cordial relations with Europe more and more ToT will be released to keep us happy. It is the same with France. France is willing to offer ToT to Brazil and India only because of the comfort factor. Saudi will end up paying more for their Rafales compared to India or Brazil. But they will not get ToT.

As far as Meteor, it is not part of the offer for MRCA from any of the members. It will be an option at a later date. There will be no objection for sale from MBDA as it is straight money in everyones pocket. ToT of Meteor is a totally different story.
Meteor is too trivial compared to AESA technology and the latest EW suites being offered. No matter who wins, if India asks for the Meteor we will get it. Everybody wins. ToT, we will need to see that since it is something that will be discussed 3-5 years later. The Indian economy will be much bigger than most European economies by then and we may ask for something else later. Who will want to miss out on that? India is trusted when it comes to IP rights. So, even this will be a win win situation.
 

Dark_Prince

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IT solutions for aerospace... who cares?
It has great significance (there is a section on Defense which is under-construction). HAL is Govt. Owned and MMRCA (with its offset clause) gives this JV an upper-hand when it comes to JV's with TATA's etc.....Govt. would definitely have more control over sourcing, if EF clinches the deal. As Indian Govt. is very predictable, it definitely signals a tilt towards EF.
 

Armand2REP

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It has great significance (there is a section on Defense which is under-construction). HAL is Govt. Owned and MMRCA (with its offset clause) gives this JV an upper-hand when it comes to JV's with TATA's etc.....Govt. would definitely have more control over sourcing, if EF clinches the deal. As Indian Govt. is very predictable, it definitely signals a tilt towards EF.
IT offsets aren't exactly the kind of ToT India is looking for.
 

Dark_Prince

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IT offsets aren't exactly the kind of ToT India is looking for.
I am not talking about IT offsets, its the complete co-operation in which different systems are an integral part, and Bigger picture is sourcing. What I am trying to project is a simple indication towards which MMRCA is headed (including recent comment of Indian ambassador to Italy).
Usually, Indian government doesn't believe in shock and awe!!

P.S: Obviously, if there is no ToT, then there is no EF. Rafael being next in line, only if cost is in the acceptable range.
 

Armand2REP

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I am not talking about IT offsets, its the complete co-operation in which different systems are an integral part, and Bigger picture is sourcing. What I am trying to project is a simple indication towards which MMRCA is headed (including recent comment of Indian ambassador to Italy).
Usually, Indian government doesn't believe in shock and awe!!

P.S: Obviously, if there is no ToT, then there is no EF. Rafael being next in line, only if cost is in the acceptable range.
Everyone is lining up to do business in India; USA, France, UK... whomever. Thales is already there, BAE is just playing catch up. It means nothing.
 

Zoravar

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Have any of the unit costs been released in public?if not,can you give me any estimates.It wqould be really helpful.
 

Dark_Prince

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Have any of the unit costs been released in public?if not,can you give me any estimates.It wqould be really helpful.
Not Much is known about the costs which would include spares, maintenance, training etc. However, you can get an idea from wikipedia (sources) about the unit cost (only), which could go up majority later on due to VAT, spares et all!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition
 

Zoravar

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Yeah I looked there ages ago but then realized no sources were given they were just guesses.
 

Dark_Prince

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Yeah I looked there ages ago but then realized no sources were given they were just guesses.
You have to get an idea from articles about the guess work on price.....the prices are provided from such sources!!
 

Armand2REP

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I made a better IR signature video... check it out!

 
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http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Kuwaiti_MPs_oppose_deal_for_French_Rafale_warplanes_999.html

Kuwaiti MPs oppose deal for French Rafale warplanes


by Staff Writers
Kuwait City (AFP) March 21, 2010
An Islamist parliamentary bloc in Kuwait on Sunday warned the government against the planned purchase of French-made Rafale warplanes, saying the deal was "suspicious."

"The bloc reiterates its firm rejection of this suspicious deal, especially following information that the latest technical reports have recommended the rejection of the deal," said a statement by the Reform and Development Bloc.

The written statement did not say why the deal was deemed suspicious, and there has been no official word that Kuwait was reconsidering the purchase.

But last November some opposition MPs had claimed the proposed contract was over-inflated. A technical defence ministry team has been assessing the deal, but its findings have not been publicised.

"We warn the government against squandering public funds on suspicious deals," said the bloc's spokesman, MP Waleed al-Tabtabai.

The political grouping comprises four Islamist MPs who have been campaigning against several proposed arms deals, especially the deal for up to 28 Rafale combat aircraft.

Kuwait's parliament has 50 elected members.

The statement also said no country in the world had bought Rafales so far. Many countries have expressed interest in the multi-role combat fighter, but no deal has been finalised.

Last week, Defence Minister Sheikh Jaber Mubarak al-Sabah said the Rafale deal remained a priority for Kuwait.

In November, Kuwait's parliament voted unanimously to ask the independent accounting watchdog Audit Bureau to probe three planned arms deals with the United States and France that one lawmaker said were worth billions of dollars.

The deals include the planned purchase of an unspecified number of US-made Hercules transport aircraft, an ammunition factory and the Rafale fighters.

In October, Kuwait and France signed a new defence agreement and discussed details of the Rafale deal.

Sheikh Jaber said after talks in Paris that Kuwait would be "proud" to have the supersonic Rafale jet for its armed forces at some point in the future.

He said he had given the Rafale a green light and passed the matter to technical teams for detailed scrutiny.

During a Gulf tour in February 2008, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said discussions had begun with Kuwait to sell between 14 and 28 Rafales, which are made by France's Dassault Aviation.
 

notinlove

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http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Kuwaiti_MPs_oppose_deal_for_French_Rafale_warplanes_999.html

Kuwaiti MPs oppose deal for French Rafale warplanes


by Staff Writers
Kuwait City (AFP) March 21, 2010
An Islamist parliamentary bloc in Kuwait on Sunday warned the government against the planned purchase of French-made Rafale warplanes, saying the deal was "suspicious."

"The bloc reiterates its firm rejection of this suspicious deal, especially following information that the latest technical reports have recommended the rejection of the deal," said a statement by the Reform and Development Bloc.

The written statement did not say why the deal was deemed suspicious, and there has been no official word that Kuwait was reconsidering the purchase.

But last November some opposition MPs had claimed the proposed contract was over-inflated. A technical defence ministry team has been assessing the deal, but its findings have not been publicised.

"We warn the government against squandering public funds on suspicious deals," said the bloc's spokesman, MP Waleed al-Tabtabai.

The political grouping comprises four Islamist MPs who have been campaigning against several proposed arms deals, especially the deal for up to 28 Rafale combat aircraft.

Kuwait's parliament has 50 elected members.

The statement also said no country in the world had bought Rafales so far. Many countries have expressed interest in the multi-role combat fighter, but no deal has been finalised.

Last week, Defence Minister Sheikh Jaber Mubarak al-Sabah said the Rafale deal remained a priority for Kuwait.

In November, Kuwait's parliament voted unanimously to ask the independent accounting watchdog Audit Bureau to probe three planned arms deals with the United States and France that one lawmaker said were worth billions of dollars.

The deals include the planned purchase of an unspecified number of US-made Hercules transport aircraft, an ammunition factory and the Rafale fighters.

In October, Kuwait and France signed a new defence agreement and discussed details of the Rafale deal.

Sheikh Jaber said after talks in Paris that Kuwait would be "proud" to have the supersonic Rafale jet for its armed forces at some point in the future.

He said he had given the Rafale a green light and passed the matter to technical teams for detailed scrutiny.

During a Gulf tour in February 2008, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said discussions had begun with Kuwait to sell between 14 and 28 Rafales, which are made by France's Dassault Aviation.
It just gets better and better , rafale reminds me of the protagonist in old hindi movies , though he is 'supposedly' a very capable and competitive man , he never seems to get his due and toils fruitlessly around the clock ....lets see if this movie has a happy ending or otherwise :p
 

Armand2REP

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Those 4 Kuwaiti MPs oppose all arms purchases. Fortunately the DefMin and most of the other MPs want it.
 

enlightened1

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http://www.hindu.com/2010/03/23/stories/2010032355522200.htmhttp://www.hindu.com/2010/03/23/stories/2010032355522200.htm

Ravi Sharma

BANGALORE: Sweden's Gripen NG, the last of the six fighter aircraft that are being evaluated by the Indian Air Force for the $12 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, left Bangalore on Monday morning for the Air Force Station (AFS) Jaisalmer.

Having gone through a week of performance trials — including a demonstration of air-to-air refuelling and flying manoeuvres — by the IAF's specifically designated MMRCA team here, two Gripens will now complete the remaining part of their flight tests over Pokhran and Leh before heading for the AFS Jamnagar and then to an air base in Sweden.

While one of the Gripens will undertake hot weather trials in and around the AFS Jaisalmer and later take off to perform a dummy run and bomb drop at the Pokhran test range, the other fighter, as part of the cold weather trials, will land in Leh, switch off, refuel and then take off again.

Ministry of Defence officials familiar with the MMRCA trials told The Hindu that while they expect no hiccups during the weapons drop over Pokhran, the Leh exercise proved challenging to the other contenders vying for the MMRCA deal.

The officials confided that four of the five aircraft in the MMRCA competition faced problems starting up in the rarefied atmosphere of Leh, and the IAF had to ask the manufacturers to undertake modifications in the aircraft's fuel systems.
The Gripen's evaluation is part of the MMRCA flight trials, which started in August last, when the F/A-18 Hornets arrived here. These were followed by another American fighter, the F-16IN Super Viper. In September, the French Rafale flew over Bangalore. It was followed by Russia's MiG-35 and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon flew in March.

Once the flight trials are completed, the MMRCA evaluation team headed by the Principal Director, Air Staff Requirements, Air Commodore R.K. Dhir will write the technical report, narrowing down the competition to three or four contenders. Thereafter, the commercial bids will be opened, with the lowest bidder — as per India's defence procurement procedures — winning the contract.
 

nrj

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^^^^^^^ So finally GRIPEN NG(proposed variant) in India clap, correct me if wrong?

& then what trials did Gripen D performed here?
 

slenke

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^^^^^^^ So finally GRIPEN NG(proposed variant) in India clap, correct me if wrong?

& then what trials did Gripen D performed here?
I think the journalists are wrong. As far as I now the NG demo is here in Sweden for testing and modifications. India have already tried it out here and performancewise the NG is better than the C/D on everything, so if a C/D passes the trials in India the NG should be given a go-ahead. But we'll see!
 
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