Mountain Strike Corps - 17

[shubhamsaikia]

Could you amplify?

30 Division from where to where? From mainland or Hinterland China or are they stationed in Tibet.

What would be the logistic infrastructure for such movement - rail, road capacity, staging areas.

Are the depots in Tibet stocked up in rations, arms and ammunition, spare weapons and weapons platforms etc.

Is their Air Force capable to give movements the air cover incase of hostile air effort?

What is the Chinese security machinery to take on any adverse and hostile reaction from the Free Tibet movement within Tibet, who might take advantage of the situation?

Defence News - India Strengthens Up China Front To Counter The Dragon

China has five fully-operational airbases, an extensive rail network and over 58,000-km of roads in Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR). China can move more than 30 divisions (each with over 15,000 soldiers) from their launch pads on the LAC in double-quick time, outnumbering Indian forces by atleast 3:1.

This is one of the Articles I read assuming it to be true.

And I am updating my knowledge accounting to the fact and post creation of 56 and 71 Div. (33, 3, 4, 9 and parts of 15 corps) And the article still mentions 3:1

 

[shubhamsaikia]

Mountain Warfare is not Alpine Warfare or Whiteshod Warfare.

Mountains need not have steep hills or avalanches since one has to first define what is Mountain Warfare.

There is Mountain Warfare and High Altitude Warfare.

These are different facets of Mountain Warfare.

Would one discount the heights of Tangdhar and the Shamsabari Bowl as not being a part of Mountain Warfare?

The Intro says also called at places by those names. I am not discounting the lower ranges or mountain like terrains such as hills. Infact even heights of Kasauli or Menchuka with Infantry Brigades qualifies to be Mountain Warfare.

 

[Ray]

I am not disputing a word of those who wish to gloss over issues in English.

There is more to deployment and war than English.

The classic that I always thought was delightful, it the official answer to where should the platoon commander be in an Advance to Contact.

The answer is - He should be well forward to influence the battle, but not too forward to get embroiled in battle.

Good and wise thoughts in English.

But the issue still remains - where?

Of course the Chinese can whistle up 30Divs. But the question is - how, where, from, and sustainability. In ideal situation or under hostile enemy reaction?

The Intro says also called at places by those names.

Which article and where is it?

 

[Ray]

Hills are way too small and not even considered.

 

[shubhamsaikia]

The Chinese have 3 Airborne Corps (43rd, 44th and the 45th). Their airforce has the 15th Airborne Corps.

I am sure the Chinese are also not expeditionary forces,?

 

[Ray]

The Chinese have 3 Airborne Corps (43rd, 44th and the 45th). Their airforce has the 15th Airborne Corps.

I am sure the Chinese are also not expeditionary forces,?

Yes they do have.

How will that be used?

Heard about something called a Link up?

Or an Airhead?

Next!

 

[Ray]

Could I ask a small question?

AB tps are fine.

How are they going to ensure that the AB tps land wherever they are to land/ para dropped and will they have an uncontested landing and consolidation thereafter as the fairy tales end - they lived happily thereafter?

Are you aware what will be the reaction and will they be allowed to consolidate?

It is also very nice to drop nomenclatures, but then one must understand the military nuances.

Pakistan has used their SSG in Siachen as routine.

I presume we should have, as per some in the forum hearing the word SSG, give them 100% success!!

The ground realities?

 

[shubhamsaikia]

I am not disputing a word of those who wish to gloss over issues in English.

There is more to deployment and war than English.

The classic that I always thought was delightful, it the official answer to where should the platoon commander be in an Advance to Contact.

The answer is - He should be well forward to influence the battle, but not too forward to get embroiled in battle.

Good and wise thoughts in English.

But the issue still remains - where?

Of course the Chinese can whistle up 30Divs. But the question is - how, where, from, and sustainability. In ideal situation or under hostile enemy reaction?



Which article and where is it?

Now since I mentioned the Mountain Strike Corps. I as looking more towards the east. The PLA's Chengdu Military Region.

The International Institute for Strategic Studies attributes the region with some 180,000 personnel, with four motorised infantry divisions, one artillery division, two armoured brigades, one artillery brigade, and two anti-aircraft brigades

And Gangzhou Military region has 3 Airborne Corps. So I am assuming they have strategic airlifts to ship these troops.

 

[Ray]

And the article still mentions 3:1

Applicable in the Plains!

You quoted so authoritatively on Kargil on RLs.

Was it 3:!?

 

[Ray]

Now since I mentioned the Mountain Strike Corps. I as looking more towards the east. The PLA's Chengdu Military Region.

And Gangzhou Military region has 3 Airborne Corps. So I am assuming they have strategic airlifts to ship these troops.

NO quibbles on that.

But we are looking at the whole spectrum from mobilisation to the end of the campaign.

NO contest by Indians anywhere?

All hunky dory?

Catered for the Tibetans and what they can do?

Wars are not fought in ideal environments and copybook style!

Musharraf and Kargil some say was a brilliant plan.

True, as far as tactics and strategy was concerned.

But the poor oaf forget that there was something called logistics and resupply and importantly, he too thought that India would sit around impotent!

On paper, one can win the world.

On ground, it is a different issue!

Those who cannot visualise that will have to eat humble pie, or as the delightful Americanism goes - eat crow!

 

[shubhamsaikia]

Could I ask a small question?

AB tps are fine.

How are they going to ensure that the AB tps land wherever they are to land/ para dropped and will they have an uncontested landing and consolidation thereafter as the fairy tales end - they lived happily thereafter?

Are you aware what will be the reaction and will they be allowed to consolidate?

It is also very nice to drop nomenclatures, but then one must understand the military nuances.

Pakistan has used their SSG in Siachen as routine.

I presume we should have, as per some in the forum hearing the word SSG, give them 100% success!!

The ground realities?

Agreed this is exactly what we dwell on. I am not saying the success of war shall lie only with the Airborne. However it definitly does provide an upper hand.
Now Airborne troops are like any other infantry with just an added qualification of being Para Qualified. Just because they are airborne does not mean they can't be used as regular infantry. Its an edge, if the need be they are air dropped.

 

[shubhamsaikia]

Applicable in the Plains!

You quoted Kargil on RLs.

Was it 3:!?

Kargil was a limited conflict. If you did command a brigade during Kargil. I am sure even you will agree that India was grossly under-prepared. Infact I remember even our weapons were called in from Southern Command. And about 3:1. The CHief at that time ordered for any operations our number should be 15:1. And that we did. But the Kargil conflict was different. The enemy was at greater heights and its an accepted principle that in mountains the one at greater heights is at advantage.

And give me your honest opinion, even though we managed to flush out the infiltrators we had cusualities of over 500 soldiers. Can it ever be a success. And we called it a limited conflict.

 

[Ray]

Agreed this is exactly what we dwell on. I am not saying the success of war shall lie only with the Airborne. However it definitly does provide an upper hand.
Now Airborne troops are like any other infantry with just an added qualification of being Para Qualified. Just because they are airborne does not mean they can't be used as regular infantry. Its an edge, if the need be they are air dropped.

The issue is how?

How does it give an upper hand?

And at which phase of the battle?

If AB is not used as Inf, what do you visualise they will be used as?

Are the SF?

Do you require a SF Corps.

And if SF will they operate as one homogeneous entity?

To be frank, I have not understood as to what you actually feel the AB Corps mission is and how they are to achieve the same!

 

[shubhamsaikia]

NO quibbles on that.

But we are looking at the whole spectrum from mobilisation to the end of the campaign.

NO contest by Indians anywhere?

All hunky dory?

Catered for the Tibetans and what they can do?

Wars are not fought in ideal environments and copybook style!

Musharraf and Kargil some say was a brilliant plan.

True, as far as tactics and strategy was concerned.

But the poor oaf forget that there was something called logistics and resupply and importantly, he too thought that India would sit around impotent!

On paper, one can win the world.

On ground, it is a different issue!

Those who cannot visualise that will have to eat humble pie, or as the delightful Americanism goes - eat crow!

About Ideal conditions, the idea to have airborne is to make some footing where there is none. IPKF was a failure because of intelligence. Of the 30 Sikh soldiers air dropped at Jafna stadium ony one survived. ANd here is our key. We need to build stronger intelligence. We need to identiy locations as drop zones.

 

[shubhamsaikia]

The issue is how?

How does it give an upper hand?

And at which phase of the battle?

If AB is not used as Inf, what do you visualise they will be used as?

Are the SF?

Do you require a SF Corps.

And if SF will they operate as one homogeneous entity?

To be frank, I have not understood as to what you actually feel the AB Corps mission is and how they are to achieve the same!

Regular Infantry Regiments, Field Artillery and Mechanized Regiments and Other Support Units that can be airdropped.

 

[shubhamsaikia]

Applicable in the Plains!

You quoted so authoritatively on Kargil on RLs.

Was it 3:!?

SIr About the RLs. Our 84 mms are RCL RLs. There is development on that thread.

 

[Ray]

Kargil was a limited conflict. If you did command a brigade during Kargil. I am sure even you will agree that India was grossly under-prepared. Infact I remember even our weapons were called in from Southern Command. And about 3:1. The CHief at that time ordered for any operations our number should be 15:1. And that we did. But the Kargil conflict was different. The enemy was at greater heights and its an accepted principle that in mountains the one at greater heights is at advantage.

Again you go by the popular perception fanned by the ill informed but sensational media.

Under prepared!

Have you seen the terrain?

Every since peak should be occupied and even so, the valleys will be thoroughfares for any intrusion that can occupy the rear areas.

Good, Even the rear areas then should be occupied you will say.

I will say Fine, give us the troops. It will require the whole Army.

Ready to give it? If so, who guards the other areas of Indo Pak and Sino Indian border?

I could go on and give an Appreciation with Ground, Tps to Task, Time and Space and so on, but that will take me a long time!

So, suffice it to say given the resource and the appreciation of the Ground, Tps to Task and Time and Space, it was the best that could be done. The fad that it has till then was tested by time is adequate an answer!

That the adversary would be up a gum tree given the logistical nightmare was also cranked in.

That the enemy will be foolish, was not!

The Chief was clueless. He was so smug he was in Poland.

Please see Amarinder Singh's Book - a Ridge too Far and calculate the ratio. Don't go by big talk of those who had no clue.

And what came from Southern Command?

 

[Ray]

About Ideal conditions, the idea to have airborne is to make some footing where there is none. IPKF was a failure because of intelligence. Of the 30 Sikh soldiers air dropped at Jafna stadium ony one survived. ANd here is our key. We need to build stronger intelligence. We need to identiy locations as drop zones.

Give me a break.

My unit won the PVC out there and I daresay I know what happened and what was 'got up'!

 

[Ray]

I will take a break.

You muster up your thoughts and then I shall come back.

I have seen enough of conflicts, wars, CI and have also had rank that allows an overview and I am not the one who buys what is told!

I am no paper tiger, I go by what is on ground. I call 84mm as RL and you call it RCL. I call Arjun Gun a gun, but because it is rifled you would call it a Rifle!

Air-dropping is no great shakes. Consolidation and Sustenance is!

Heard of a Bridge Too far?

 

[shubhamsaikia]

You should check out Brig. Devender's Interview. The Sorry state of Kargil.

Also inside conditions from 3 Infantry Div. at Karu