Mosque at Ground Zero? Plan angers NY

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

Saudi muslims represent less than 5% of the world muslim population. Moreover, Saudi Arabia has been one of the biggest allies of the US in the cold war era. It was their support that brought down the USSR where they match dollar for dollar in covert anti-soviet operations from Afghanistan to Africa to South America. You might want to read Steve Colls Ghost wars to understand how US reached the 9/11 situation.

The truth is that the "saudis" actually were the remnants of the so called mujahideen that the US herself had trained to fight against the Soviets. And they came from Afghanistan. It was a backlash in the making. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have suffered that backlash too. And both have suffeered far far greater loss of lives for their role. And deservedly so because they made use of Islam andmuslim fanatics for their geo-politcal interests inspite of being muslim countries themselves. I blame the policies of these two countries in the80s and 90s more than I would blame the Americans. But as Steve Coll points out, without the traiing and suppportof the Americans, they would never have become as lethal as they did.

Yes, US trained Al-Qaeda, many of whose members may have been from KSA, but they were trained to fight Soviet in Afghan. US did not impart them training to go to other countries to blow stuff up. The training imparted to these guys was used for inappropriate actions by the Al-Qaeda of its own accord. These people were rewarded as per the arrangements made between the two.
Flailing US support or not, these guys attacked US using their religion as an umbrella and are reaping its rewards.


I have been in Duba(UAE) and have personally seen the hindu temple there. Moreover, permission for construction of Gurudwara (sikh temple) has also been granted. Here are some links for your information. And churches are most defintely there as well. Same is the case for Bahrain where there is a Synagouge as well. Iran has almost 400,000 mostly orthodox jews as does Algeria and Tunisia alongwith their religious places and their own religious schools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Temple,_Dubai
http://www.unp.co.in/f15/first-ever-gurudwara-in-whole-of-middle-east-83897/

I stand corrected in this case, as on my past few visits, I had not seen any church or temple or shuls in UAE, perhaps you are right in pointing out there does exist ONE temple for about 0.5million hindus.

ASMA is a registered charity in the US and the USgovt. I would believe can at anytime scrutunise where it got its donation from. I belive they claimed it was all locally funded. Moreover, all the details I have read state that it is about two blocks from Ground zero. The ground zero itself is very expensive property asanyone can imagine. However, two blocks is not really that far from ground zero in anycase. The mosque aka Islamic cultural cenre aka Cordoba house is near ground zero not on it afaik. The center would be located on Park Place, about two blocks from the World Trade Center site.

Please go through all the previous posts in this regard.

 

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

Lol "their God". God is one my friend. Just the words you chose to call Him is different. God, Allah, Bhagwan, Eshwar, Parmeshwar etc...

I dont believe in god personally, but glad to see you look at it that way. Its not a universal understanding, for if such was a case, world would have been a lot different since the beginning of time.

 

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

FYI, a large chunk of Americans see religion as something which is retarded, barbaric, condones pedophilia, encourages murder and genocides etc. And this assumption is and has been validated year on year.

I'd like make suggestion to you; yes, a large percentage (not a majority) percentage, may be have unorthodox religion views, but US is still very much a nation of theists.


Personally, Islam is being given a bad name because those committing terrorism are justifying it based on their interpretation of the Islamic texts. Unfortunately Islam has not evolved unlike Christianity,Hinduism, Judaism etcc which have distanced themselves from some of the more extreme passages and adapted themselves to the changing world. So till there is a 21st century re-interpretation of Quran, the extremist elements will not lessen.

Well said!

 

[Singh]

I'd like make suggestion to you; yes, a large percentage (not a majority) percentage, may be have unorthodox religion views, but US is still very much a nation of theists.

That is why I said a large chunk. In fact US has a larger number of theists percentage wise than other western nations, and it is a lot to do with the history and independence struggle of US. However,I was illustrating this fact to counter a point raised by a member.

If US allows a mosque to be built at ground zero, it just goes to show that US is indeed a great nation. If the terrorists will not compromise with their beliefs why should US ? God bless America.

 

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

If US allows a mosque to be built at ground zero, it just goes to show that US is indeed a great nation. If the terrorists will not compromise with their beliefs why should US ? God bless America.

US is a great nation, and we dont have to prove it to anyone. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.
US is also a nation of principles, of freedom, of mutual respect, and what they preach in their sharia law, something they want the world to follow, you can understand what kind of a picture it can paint.

 

[ejazr]

Yes, US trained Al-Qaeda, many of whose members may have been from KSA, but they were trained to fight Soviet in Afghan. US did not impart them training to go to other countries to blow stuff up. The training imparted to these guys was used for inappropriate actions by the Al-Qaeda of its own accord. These people were rewarded as per the arrangements made between the two.
Flailing US support or not, these guys attacked US using their religion as an umbrella and are reaping its rewards.

My friend, in the real world this is what is called law of un intended consequences. Like I mentioned in my post the Saudis and Pakistanis have sufferred more lives and material lost than America. Many times more than America. Do you think they expected thi to happen as well? The ideology to motivate them did not differentiate between US or USSR or Saudi Kings or Pakistani presidents. It was a time when lunatics from all over the arab world were encouraged to go the Af-Pak border. This politcal Islamic ideology is against traditional Islam. But the same ideology was supported for their geopolitcal interests i.e. anti-communist agenda.
And no, they are no reaping any rewards. I don't understand how you could come up with that conclusion. The attacks has been a wakeup call and Saudi Arabia has been at forefront of annhilating these groups. Infact, you will find less websites on the net in Arabic promoting extremist ideology than English because of one of their premier cyber monitoring teams brinig down their websites. The case ofPakistan is unique and different and probbaly the most complex. But from Indonesia to Saudi Arabia to Algeria, AQ type groups have been almost annhilated.
Many leading American officials like Hillary Clinton and Robert Gates acknowledge that their wrong strategy post-USSR withdrawal from Afghanistan is one of the prime reasons for AQ being established there.

I stand corrected in this case, as on my past few visits, I had not seen any church or temple or shuls in UAE, perhaps you are right in pointing out there does exist ONE temple for about 0.5million hindus.

There are actually a number of churches, if you do go next timeyou can go and find out.



And just on your last post and video, this perception is what the Cordoba House will try to correct and spread not only among non-muslims but muslims as well. Cordoba under muslims was and is still known historically as the golden age of jews in theri own books. This shows that there was not just tolerace but active co-operation between various communtieis.
If you look at 90% of the muslims today, they are not religious, they do not pray five times a day or woudl refrain from drinking alcohol e.t.c Sharia is a very broad term and is imilar to the Jewish Halaka. And mosques are a place of worship just like any other religious place. Does building a temple or a Gurudwara in Dubai mean that Hindus or Sikhs want to prove their politcal power or victory their? Religious practices should not be associated with

I suggest you read an article by Fareed Zakaria which he wrote two weeks after 9/11. the-politics-of-rage-why-do-they-hate-us?

You must also understand that it is actually the muslims who have suffered most by orders of magnitude by this deviant 21st century ideology. Someone mentioned thatQuran should be reinterpreted in the 21st century. But the reality is that terrorists actions like killing civilians has been completely against tradtional Islam. Traditional Islamic though should be stregnthened --by the muslims--so that this new deviant ideology that came about during the cold war era is relegated to history. And believe me, the traditional Islamic scholars as well as reformed exteremists have done a lot of work in this regard already. The extremists never had a theological basis of their actions, its just a matter for the mainstream media to realise this. But a mullah spreading a message of peace does not have as much TRP ratings as a cracy bearded businessman or doctor shouting and burnign tires or shootin AKs.

If there is only onething I could get you to do then I would highly recommend you watching this six part documentary from BBC (link below). Its vital for mainstream people to understand that legitimising the fringe fanatics as representing the majority make them appear more powerful than the mainstream muslims. Denigrating the fight against them to a religious war makes it even worse.Remeber that muslim countrys have suffered more loss oflive by these very groups. That is why Obama's move to reduce AQ to being just a terrorist and treating it as a criminal syndicate. This is really not just about the mosque near groundzero or not but a general feeling about muslims today. And I would be first to say that the blame goes largeely to teh muslims and muslim govt.s themselves.
BBC Documentary-The power of nightmares

 

[tarunraju]

That history is taken out of context. Muslims didn't conquer NY, although the history cited in that video is relatable. Muslims built a mosque over a Lord Rama temple in northern India, and our vote-bank fapping politicians won't let people wanting that temple back rebuild it, even with the offer of relocating the mosque. Hindus like to sugarcoat indifference with secularism, so no temple yet, probably there won't ever be one.

 

[ahmedsid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg5d6FWu-Aw

This is an Interesting Video, Watch it fully! God Speed

 

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg5d6FWu-Aw

This is an Interesting Video, Watch it fully! God Speed

Its great, nothing wrong with preaching the moderate voice of Islam, but perhaps this video would be more useful if telecasted in MidEast.

 

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

That history is taken out of context. Muslims didn't conquer NY, although the history cited in that video is relatable. Muslims built a mosque over a Lord Rama temple in northern India, and our vote-bank fapping politicians won't let people wanting that temple back rebuild it, even with the offer of relocating the mosque. Hindus like to sugarcoat indifference with secularism, so no temple yet, probably there won't ever be one.

No Muslims didnt conquer US or NY, but the point of the video being, that how the extremists or radical muslims can draw parallels to attack of 9/11 & the historical conquests.

 

[ahmedsid]

Dulce, This thread is not Discussing the Situation in the Middle East! No More Off Topic Posts Please!!

 

[ahmedsid]

Its great, nothing wrong with preaching the moderate voice of Islam, but perhaps this video would be more useful if telecasted in MidEast.

This is not the Moderate Form of Islam, This is the Way Islam really is!!! A Lot of emphasis is laid on Compassion and Forgiveness! Almost all the Passages in the Quran talks of Kindness, Forgiveness and Compassion in one way or the other! Too bad, nobody sees that now a days!

 

[Jeypore]

On this issue I agree with Neil Boortz quote: "Mosque at Ground Zero? Please note the long history of Muslims building Mosques at sites of great Islamic victories." And if you do research this statement, then you will find a coorelation that does exist in every countries that Islam have attacked. Especially, building mosque on the same site of religion conquered. To me that strategy makes good sense because what would be the purpose of conquering, but US has not been conquered yet and US Gov't should not be so flexible, since there is a current war against Islamic Fundamentalist!!!

 

[Singh]

Dulce, This thread is not Discussing the Situation in the Middle East! No More Off Topic Posts Please!!

I don't see why this off-topic ?
It is essential to understand where Americans are coming from, if whether they associate American Muslims with Arabs or as Americans etc.

 

[Rage]

Here's why I think there ought not to be a mosque at Ground Zero. I won't get into the semantics of this, nor the ethicalities, but I tend to think that this is a matter of perception- and in the perception of many an American, this will tend to be taken as vast insult to injury.

 

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

Dulce, This thread is not Discussing the Situation in the Middle East! No More Off Topic Posts Please!!

Ahmed you need to understand, as Singh said, where we (Americans) are coming from.
From all the posts on this forum and news from India, the perspective I have is, the kind of terrorism, US & India are facing is based on a bit different ideologies, athough by the same radical islamists. Not to undermine the gravity of the situation in either place, but to have a better understanding of perception of threat from extremists, we should understand that in India, terrorism is being waged for the land of Kashmir, which jihadists think should be part of Pakistan for its majority muslim population, which is completely blasphemous, on this ground, they should say we want entire India, when India's muslim population is higher than that of pakistan.
While in US, the war is being fought not for land, but for our way of life, freedom from the ideology of islamist fundamentalists. These guys want to impose sharia law, the extreme for of Islam on our land & our allies. And the source for these is from the MidEast, as per all the intel and information we have. To understand all this, you must know what these guys are actually preaching in the MidEast, certain details for which were in my previous posts, which you have deleted.

In reponse to Singh's post, Americans do not differentiate amongst people based on their religion. Muslims or not, we view them as our fellow countrymen. There are islamic extremists in US also, who have links with the fundamentalists in MidEast and we (regardless of religious background) try hard not to let their voice prevail.

This is not the Moderate Form of Islam, This is the Way Islam really is!!! A Lot of emphasis is laid on Compassion and Forgiveness! Almost all the Passages in the Quran talks of Kindness, Forgiveness and Compassion in one way or the other! Too bad, nobody sees that now a days!

This is exactly our point. The prevalent voice of Islam in today's world is not that of moderate islam, but of extremism. Until the voice of moderate islam is mainstream, there will be reservations people will hold.
Just based on the practices of moderate muslims in 4-5 countries, we can not generalize that moderate islam is mainstream across the globe. I grew up with many muslim & hindu friends, and have enjoyed cordial relations with them. These guys dont follow the radical teachings of islam, they make their own understanding and follow their beliefs for peace and in the eyes of extremists these people are infidels or kafirs. I did not know about the sharia before being stationed in mideast. You really have to be there, to understand what these extremists are preaching and blowing themselves up for.

 

[Jeypore]

This is not the Moderate Form of Islam, This is the Way Islam really is!!! A Lot of emphasis is laid on Compassion and Forgiveness! Almost all the Passages in the Quran talks of Kindness, Forgiveness and Compassion in one way or the other! Too bad, nobody sees that now a days!

It is because the moderate Muslim countries have not joined the fight against Islamic Fundamentalist. For example, there are numerous countries like Jordan, Turkey, Morroco, etc... They would have step in to assist the NATO forces for the struggle, but there is not one. Which represents that the Moderate Muslim, some what, Agrees in this fight for them to Win Aganist the NATO or Western forces.. And yet Each of these Muslim countries, moderate or not, does not except any Paradigm in there own country, but they expect the same from the Western Countries. Do You understand the Anger in majority of American populace???

 

[Jeypore]

Here's why I think there ought not to be a mosque at Ground Zero. I won't get into the semantics of this, nor the ethicalities, but I tend to think that this is a matter of perception- and in the perception of many an American, this will tend to be taken as vast insult to injury.

This Lady is wrong, it is not war on Islam, but the Islamic Fundamentalist, Which I might add she did not mention at all. So, in other words She is modifing the words of Islamic Fundamentalist ideology war to WAR ON ISLAM. So be it!!!

Here is another great example of an Muslim Women cannot figure out why there is a WAR, counting also numerous Americans? I think then we need to start with 9/11....

 

[tarunraju]

How nicely those pursuing the Mosque on Ground Zero use the term "moderate Islam" to their convenience. If they were truly "moderate" then they should not insist on building a mosque on Ground Zero when there's public opposition. They can build it anywhere else in the US.

 

[pankaj nema]

This proposal of making a mosque was just a proposal.
It is not going to happen.
There is a lot of opposition to it.

However I believe the proposal itself was the handiwork of some right wing people who wanted some new controversy and who want this conflict between muslims and christians to continue in some form or other.