Mosque at Ground Zero? Plan angers NY

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

So you are saying US armed Pakistan to supply weapons to the Pakistani jihadists, to use against India? Or US just armed pakistan with weapons which Pakistan could use against India, as you can see there is a major difference between the two.
US has already confirmed it will oppose any waivers for Pakistan in NSG. Sino Pak link US has never denied FYI. If you want more discussion on US Sino relations, start a new thread, and we can disuss there.

From all your posts it seems you see US as the world police, whereas US just works in the best interest of US & its allies. US is not a saint nor do we act like one to punish or let free. This is human nature, all countries do it. India armed LTTE in the 80s, got its own PM shot by them.

to Ajtr,if my political views do not matter to you, in that case all this discussion is a moot point.
Nixon sent the 7th fleet in Bay of Bengal to oppress any nuclear testing by India, as it saw India as an ally of USSR. USSR which was an enemy of USA.

Yusuf, mujahideen fought for US for US's interest against communism, they did not fight for US under an umbrella of "Fight for god".....

You guys can dig up all the graves you want, and you will find dirt on all sides. You should be looking at how far US & India have come since those days. And if you want to stick to these old principles, in such a scenario, it would be foolish of US not learn from past errors, and hence not arm India, for the fear of India turning against us decades down the line.

We form a relationship, we take chances, some work out, some dont, you must learn to let go of what didnt work out and not let the past define you.

And further posts please stick to the main topic, and on US India history, it is better if you start a new thread and we can discuss there.

 

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

The Whole Thing is Not a Mosque!!! Its not like a huge cathedral complex imposing its view on the Site of the ghastly attack! Its a Complex, with a praying space!

Mr. Ahmed, you dont see any Jews or Christians building there places of worship overlooking the ground zero.
But it is exactly what you deny it is. The mosque is on the top floor of the complex overlooking the ground zero.

 

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

if this anger is for the hatred of the religion,then i guess its wrong,but y build a mosque,build a memorial instead,it would be rather better

From the people I know who have objections to this complex, mine and their anger is not against islam.

 

[Singh]

The Whole Thing is Not a Mosque!!! Its not like a huge cathedral complex imposing its view on the Site of the ghastly attack! Its a Complex, with a praying space!

it is just like a mosque, not architecturally. Got it.

--

I wouldn't want to be in Bloomberg or Obama's shoes, when there are celebratory gunshots by some people when this complex / like a mosque, not architecturally is unveiled. I know what these extremists will say as well "we tore down the symbol of America and erected our own. God is with us. Death to America." ouch !!

 

[Singh]

The US called the war by Mujahadeen against the Soviets as Jihad.
The term used by the US "Mujadadeen" means "army of God". You called the terrorists "army of God".

The US called the Mujhaideen struggle "Jihad" becuase this is what the Mujhaideen called it.
US delivered money and weapons, ISI spun the whole thing and turned it into a holy war in keeping with Zia's Islamicisation policy.
CIA was happy because this way this whole anti-Soviet insurgency was given an Islamic angle and helped it win the support of the Muslims and get additional funding by Arabs.

 

[Illusive]

From the people I know who have objections to this complex, mine and their anger is not against islam.

if a mosque is build there , then i guess it would be the best answer by US to the so-called-jihadis that it was never against Islam

 

[Rahul Singh]

Whatever one may say like "we want this Islamic convention for this and that'', the fact remains unchanged that this is not the suitable time to build any structure which is associated with Islam in any manner close to or at ground zero. Bitter truth, Islam is seen among non-muslims(not all) as a religion which nurtures peoples who believe in destruction of non believers/Kafirs and actions by extremists endorses this assumption everyday. Now, if you build something like what has been planed then a very wrong message will go in the form of misinterpretation. I guess(upon my personal experience) extremists will definitely say similar to this "look we first thrashed american/infidel's/ Kafir's pride and now we made it holy by building such and such". I may be wrong but i have heard people saying " It is written in Quran that one day a muslim will become most powerful man in world", they were referring to Mr Obama. At first i did't saw anything special in this statement until man uttered again " this is just the beginning of end of kafirs in amrica(that's how he pronounced) soon amrica and whole world will be ruled by Islam". I can't say whether he said right or wrong, but i know he surely misinterpreted facts. I fear similar can happen if this plan goes through. I guess if this fear of mine comes true then wounds of relatives who have lost their keen in 9/11 and all who are loosing them in war against terror will come fresh. And this will be no good for any.

-----------------
OT

Once one close friend(he is a muslim) of my DAD came to my house and said this line and explained it in middle of one discussion.
"Islam is being given bad name not because of extremists but by liberals who do nothing but condemn"

PS: This para is just to show my personal experience and by no means shall be taken as lecture or anything to anyone.

 

[ahmedsid]

Singh, True, Idiots will be saying exactly what you are saying. God is Great, We Defeated America and made them build a mosque! It will be a nightmare like that honestly. But then, Idiots will be Idiots right?

About the Complex, a part of it is praying space, while the rest will be used for other things. So technically, its a Complex with a praying space, and architecturally not a mosque

BTW- Dulce, and all, what about the Mosque which was there always? Did you read that above article posted a page back? God Speed

 

[Rahul Singh]

if a mosque is build there , then i guess it would be the best answer by US to the so-called-jihadis that it was never against Islam

Unfortunately these extremists, in this case jihadis, will not see this development through eyes of Obama but Osama. And conclusion they will draw is not very hard to imagine. Sometimes something very good leads to very bad, bad world unfortunately.

I know what these extremists will say as well "we tore down the symbol of America and erected our own. God is with us. Death to America." ouch !!

Never imagined this is lying just above me, may be i should have used "we guess" instead.

 

[Singh]

Bitter truth, Islam is seen among non-muslims(not all) as a religion which nurtures peoples who believe in destruction of non believers/Kafirs and actions by extremists endorses this assumption everyday.

We are talking about US here. I maybe wrong (I am sure I am not) but you are not an American, right ?

FYI, a large chunk of Americans see religion as something which is retarded, barbaric, condones pedophilia, encourages murder and genocides etc. And this assumption is and has been validated year on year.

Now, if you build something like what has been planed then a very wrong message will go in the form of misinterpretation.

so building any religious structure sends the message that ?

I guess(upon my personal experience) extremists will definitely say similar to this "look we first thrashed american/infidel's/ Kafir's pride and now we made it holy by building such and such".

This is my only worry, and I have said something similar in my previous post(s).

I may be wrong but i have heard people saying " It is written in Quran that one day a muslim will become most powerful man in world", they were referring to Mr Obama. At first i did't saw anything special in this statement until man uttered again " this is just the beginning of end of kafirs in amrica(that's how he pronounced) soon amrica and whole world will be ruled by Islam". I can't say whether he said right or wrong, but i know he surely misinterpreted facts. I fear similar can happen if this plan goes through. I guess if this fear of mine comes true then wounds of relatives who have lost their keen in 9/11 and all who are loosing them in war against terror will come fresh. And this will be no good for any.

Look up Ghazwa-e-Hind too. Fwiw its a straw to clutch on to. Some people want to see Caliphate, some want to see Akhand Bharat. Nothing wrong with dreaming/believing.

-----------------
OT
Once one close friend(he is a muslim) of my DAD came to my house and said this line and explained it in middle of one discussion.
"Islam is being given bad name not because of extremists but by liberals who do nothing but condemn"
PS: This para is just show my personal experience and by no means shall be taken as lecture or anything to anyone.

Personally, Islam is being given a bad name because those committing terrorism are justifying it based on their interpretation of the Islamic texts. Unfortunately Islam has not evolved unlike Christianity,Hinduism, Judaism etcc which have distanced themselves from some of the more extreme passages and adapted themselves to the changing world. So till there is a 21st century re-interpretation of Quran, the extremist elements will not lessen.

PS: Sorry for lack of PC !

 

[nrj]

Well well well; my question is if the site is in the commercial area then how good is it to allow religious praying structure in place? Can't they get the building in some other place to get the 'Muslim-looking' Public opinion purpose done ? Business places should be in commercial area & the rest should find their location in respective areas...

 

[Yusuf]

So you are saying US armed Pakistan to supply weapons to the Pakistani jihadists, to use against India? Or US just armed pakistan with weapons which Pakistan could use against India, as you can see there is a major difference between the two.
US has already confirmed it will oppose any waivers for Pakistan in NSG. Sino Pak link US has never denied FYI. If you want more discussion on US Sino relations, start a new thread, and we can disuss there.

From all your posts it seems you see US as the world police, whereas US just works in the best interest of US & its allies. US is not a saint nor do we act like one to punish or let free. This is human nature, all countries do it. India armed LTTE in the 80s, got its own PM shot by them.

to Ajtr,if my political views do not matter to you, in that case all this discussion is a moot point.
Nixon sent the 7th fleet in Bay of Bengal to oppress any nuclear testing by India, as it saw India as an ally of USSR. USSR which was an enemy of USA.

Yusuf, mujahideen fought for US for US's interest against communism, they did not fight for US under an umbrella of "Fight for god".....

You guys can dig up all the graves you want, and you will find dirt on all sides. You should be looking at how far US & India have come since those days. And if you want to stick to these old principles, in such a scenario, it would be foolish of US not learn from past errors, and hence not arm India, for the fear of India turning against us decades down the line.

We form a relationship, we take chances, some work out, some dont, you must learn to let go of what didnt work out and not let the past define you.

And further posts please stick to the main topic, and on US India history, it is better if you start a new thread and we can discuss there.

You are right about us talking about the US being the policeman of the world. The US itself calls it so. Just recently someone in the US admin said that the US is finding it increasingly difficult to police the world. I fail to recall who.

If you read my other posts in the forum which has anything to do with the US, you will see i am pro US as i see if benefiting to my country to do business with the US.

The main point remains is perceptions and geopolitical need. As you said, US is no saint. But by playing the games it has played, it made a lot of enemies and bitter feeling in people around the world. Thats why though you see India and US cozying up, India still takes every step carefully as it still does not completely trust the US because of the past.

US has had a history of changing partners to suit it. Your allies these days are feeling threatened and left alone. eg UK where its new PM is trying hard to forge new alliances. Not necessarily sacrificing its relations with the US but just to have more breathing space. Japan and SK too are feeling the pain with the US tango with China.

I know all these points are way OT in this thread, but the thread has had good discussion thats why it stays.

 

[plugwater]

wouldn't it be horrible for 9/11 families visiting the memorial to their loved ones to be forced to hear the 'call to prayer' blasted over speakers as they reflect on their loss.

 

[Singh]

wouldn't it be horrible for 9/11 families visiting the memorial to their loved ones to be forced to hear the 'call to prayer' blasted over speakers as they reflect on their loss.

Would anyone object if a mosque was to be built near the Taj Hotel in Mumbai ? Do the 26/11 victims feel horrible when they are forced to hear the call to prayer from the numerous mosques in Colaba ?

India is a third world nation and we don't even think about such.

 

[Rahul Singh]

We are talking about US here. I maybe wrong (I am sure I am not) but you are not an American, right ?

Indeed, we are taking about US and absolutely right i'm an Indian by everything.

FYI, a large chunk of Americans see religion as something which is retarded, barbaric, condones pedophilia, encourages murder and genocides etc. And this assumption is and has been validated year on year.

I very well know as well as how they use these terms to define secularism and shout for its need. Not FYI but IMO after 9/11 they practically replaced word religion with word Islam and avatar of one member here gives ample hints regarding.

so building any religious structure sends the message that ?

Since you are aware as you have already said "we are taking about/regarding US" this question should not have come in first place, but it came. Anyway, i feel better to clarify. Yes building this religious structure(not any) close to or at ground zero(not anywhere) at this time(not anytime) will send wrong message because extremists will interpret this development and use it to hurt sentiments of survivors and relatives of victims plus these extremists will use it to bring favors in the form of more jehadi recruitments, funding etc.

This is my only worry, and I have said something similar in my previous post(s).

Mine too but not only because its aftereffects will be unbearable to concerned.

Look up Ghazwa-e-Hind too. Fwiw its a straw to clutch on to. Some people want to see Caliphate, some want to see Akhand Bharat. Nothing wrong with dreaming/believing.

Absolutely, nothing wrong in dreaming and believing but indeed wrong in trying to implement by the means to violence and terrorism.

Personally, Islam is being given a bad name because those committing terrorism are justifying it based on their interpretation of the Islamic texts. Unfortunately Islam has not evolved unlike Christianity,Hinduism, Judaism etcc which have distanced themselves from some of the more extreme passages and adapted themselves to the changing world. So till there is a 21st century re-interpretation of Quran, the extremist elements will not lessen.

PS: Sorry for lack of PC !

Me also personally. Islam is being given bad name because her liberal part is not that sensitive or don't look like to be in comparison to liberals of other religions. Hindus, Sikhs Christens etc too have extremists, but they are not able to bring bad name(in relative terms) to their respective religion and reason i see is activeness of non extremists in countering rest.

 

[ejazr]

I brought KSA into contention because, majority of the hijackers involved were from KSA, but mainly, because these guys attacked my nation in the name of a religion, that has most prominence in KSA.
Also I would like to correct you, there are no hindu temples or church in UAE.
Yes, Indonesia is the country with maximum muslim population, just as India has many muslims, but as I said our fight is not against Muslims, and I think you have not gotten a hold of this yet.

ASMA is not spending its own money, they are raising money, where this money will come from we do not know, and that is something not in contention. Please stick to the post.
The NY authorities, gave the go ahead, because US is a free society, and under our constitution we can not reject them from doing this. My contention is not based on legal or political grounds, rather moral & ethical grounds. There's a big difference if you can see it.

This center, can very much ke erected further away, rather than in the vicinity of ground zero. Non Muslims can still go there to understand Islam better, the moderate voice of Islam can still be spread. Why does it have to be on the graveyard of 3000 people killed by extremists in the name of this very religion?

Saudi muslims represent less than 5% of the world muslim population. Moreover, Saudi Arabia has been one of the biggest allies of the US in the cold war era. It was their support that brought down the USSR where they match dollar for dollar in covert anti-soviet operations from Afghanistan to Africa to South America. You might want to read Steve Colls Ghost wars to understand how US reached the 9/11 situation.

The truth is that the "saudis" actually were the remnants of the so called mujahideen that the US herself had trained to fight against the Soviets. And they came from Afghanistan. It was a backlash in the making. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have suffered that backlash too. And both have suffeered far far greater loss of lives for their role. And deservedly so because they made use of Islam andmuslim fanatics for their geo-politcal interests inspite of being muslim countries themselves. I blame the policies of these two countries in the80s and 90s more than I would blame the Americans. But as Steve Coll points out, without the traiing and suppportof the Americans, they would never have become as lethal as they did.


I have been in Duba(UAE) and have personally seen the hindu temple there. Moreover, permission for construction of Gurudwara (sikh temple) has also been granted. Here are some links for your information. And churches are most defintely there as well. Same is the case for Bahrain where there is a Synagouge as well. Iran has almost 400,000 mostly orthodox jews as does Algeria and Tunisia alongwith their religious places and their own religious schools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Temple,_Dubai
http://www.unp.co.in/f15/first-ever-gurudwara-in-whole-of-middle-east-83897/


ASMA is a registered charity in the US and the USgovt. I would believe can at anytime scrutunise where it got its donation from. I belive they claimed it was all locally funded. Moreover, all the details I have read state that it is about two blocks from Ground zero. The ground zero itself is very expensive property asanyone can imagine. However, two blocks is not really that far from ground zero in anycase. The mosque aka Islamic cultural cenre aka Cordoba house is near ground zero not on it afaik. The center would be located on Park Place, about two blocks from the World Trade Center site.

 

[SHASH2K2]

if this anger is for the hatred of the religion,then i guess its wrong,but y build a mosque,build a memorial instead,it would be rather better

I agree with you . I don't support building mosque at that site . Mosque is a religious symbol and it will definitely hurt sentiments of many specially those who lost their loved ones . similarly branding all Muslims as terrorists hurt many and all muslims should not be branded as terrorists . we all have to understand each others feeling. If American Muslims really want to do something memorable build a great memorial thats not at all religious. no one will have any objections to it. A non religious memorial will help people forget their sorrow rather than aggravating it.

 

[Vinod2070]

It will be seen by most people as putting salt into the wound, whatever may be the intentions of the people who want to do it.

Not the best of timing and not the best choice of location. Both suggest there is a deliberate intention to take advantage of the freedom offered in secular democratic countries while continuing to deny the same to other in their own countries.

 

[dulce bellum inexpertis]

Singh, True, Idiots will be saying exactly what you are saying. God is Great, We Defeated America and made them build a mosque! It will be a nightmare like that honestly. But then, Idiots will be Idiots right?

About the Complex, a part of it is praying space, while the rest will be used for other things. So technically, its a Complex with a praying space, and architecturally not a mosque

BTW- Dulce, and all, what about the Mosque which was there always? Did you read that above article posted a page back? God Speed

Yes, there was a mosque built 4 blocks from the WTC in the same year as the towers were erected, not blown up radicals in the name of their religion. And as Mr. Singh & others have pointed out, the extremists will point out that how they blowed up our towers, killed innocent civilians in the name of their god, and now that god is worshipped there. Can you imagine how the extremists will feel, and how many more people may volunteer in the name of religion.

 

[Yusuf]

Lol "their God". God is one my friend. Just the words you chose to call Him is different. God, Allah, Bhagwan, Eshwar, Parmeshwar etc...