Moscow-Beijing Axis

[Martian]

From a strategic standpoint, the United States does not like Moscow or Beijing.

"Bush: "It takes him eight hours to fly home. Eight hours. Russia's big and so is China."
See Cenk Uygur: The Ugly Truth: Our President is an Imbecile

Russia and China are two big countries with large conventional armies and nuclear weapons. The United States will continue to work to undermine both countries, because it is intolerable that a tiny handful of people controls those big countries.

Russia is controlled by Medvedev/Putin. In Russia, it only takes one or two people to start a war, such as the Russo-Georgian conflict. There is no one to oppose Putin in Russia. Any journalist that publicly opposes Putin is putting his/her life at risk. See List of journalists killed in Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China is controlled by a politburo of roughly 25 people. Journalists that oppose the Chinese government are censored or arrested.

The US goal is to take power out of the hands of the few in both Russia and China. The US wants Russia and China to have a system that resembles the US. In the US, the President has to build a consensus and convince the public that there is a serious threat to the US to justify a war. If the poll numbers are high enough then the President may take the step of launching a war. However, without Congressional support, a President cannot sustain a war. Congress has the power to cut off the funding for a war. Congress also holds a lot of hearings to examine various aspects of a war as part of its oversight responsibility.

The US wants to see significant changes in Russia and China. The proposal to start a war has to have major public support. The sustainability of a war has to be agreed to by a different branch of government, such as Congress. Until the power to wage war is taken out of the hands of a few people and placed into the hands of the majority of the public, the US will always be thinking of some way to change (cough: "overthrow") the governments of Russia and China.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

US likes governments it can control for their own interests whether you are communist,socialist,dictatorship it does not matter, adopting the democratic ideology will not change USA's view towards nations it views as competitors one clear example is India a democracy where USA supports Pakistan a dictatorship and an Islamic fundementalist society to undermine India the democracy, so even if Russia and China one day decided they are democratic USA would still keep the same policy of undermining them.

 

[Martian]

Now that you mention it, you are probably right. Someone said that nations only have permanent interests. If we take a very broad view, it does make sense that the US doesn't want any competitors (i.e. Russia or China), regardless of whether they're democratic or not. I found your example regarding Pakistan persuasive.

 

[Vladimir79]

China has the largest foreign-exchange reserve in the world.and the most potential huge market.So we are very confidence of the Chinese economy.

Its nice that you think so but the Chinese economy is not driven by domestic demand but by foreign. What matters for China is confidence in the people of the US, EU, Russia, and India as to how secure their economics are. If their confidence is low, they don't buy which means China goes bust. The recent scandals in China with 1/5th of all monitored products being substandard is not instilling any confidence in our countries when our pets are dying and children being poisoned. For instance, half of all Chinese toy exporters have already shut down. If the trend continues China will no longer be the world's leading toy exporter.

For the financial crisis,China invest in domestic market,and plan to transform the mode of economy into internal consumption.That's why the tax income is reduced this year and also the reason why Chinese economy can be such stable compare with other country during this hard time.

Thats good, because foreign companies are packing up. Only problem with the Chinese model, domestic business have to adhere to different market rules than foreign companies. When being run in that semi-communist mode they aren't nearly as productive as they are being propped up by subsidies as to make foreign companies uncompetitive. In reality, China is hemorrhaging money and has no way in which to compete b/c they are state subsidised monopolies.

Do you know the car-consume market in China has surpassed the USA and be the NO.1 in the world this year?

Of course it is.... you have almost five times the population and the US isn't selling jack. Most of their automakers have declared bankruptcy so that is no great feat.

even if during this badly global economy crisis,The GDP Growth of China will still above 8% this year.what about Russia?even in the fastest increasing time of Russia in 2000,The GDP Growth is 7.6% according to IBRD.

You want to compare Russia to China... really?? Nominal per capita GDP of Russians are FOUR times higher than China. Average wage in PROC is a dollar an hour. I will spend a weeks worth of Chinese wages on dinner tonight. People in the provinces are rioting for withheld pay, 90,000 strikes, demonstrations and riots just in the past year. While Russia is energy independent, China spends close to 10% of GDP on energy imports. The real bad news for you is your energy consumption is increasing exponentially faster than your GDP growth. That means China is becoming addicted to imported fuels while at the same time you are losing an ever larger chunk of GDP, much of it payed to Russia. Chinese pollution is so bad it is estimated a loss of 10-15% of GDP holding the economy back and your CO2 index is the highest in the world. The deserts keep on reclaiming arable land while your farms dry up. You have so polluted your environment, the bees have died and orchard farmers have to pollinate the fruits by hand... BY HAND!! Big reason Russians don't want to live in the more cozy climate conditions on the Chinese border are the rivers are so polluted, the fish and crops are too polluted to eat and everything has to be shipped in making cost of living very expensive. When I went to the Olympics the air was so polluted I had to wear a face mask, and that was after they took all the cars off the streets and seeded the clouds to make it rain! The economic disparity in your country is growing so vast, there are going to be more riots and strikes than you will be able to handle, 90,000 a year is only the tip of the iceburg. The demand for higher quality control for domestic and foreign consumer goods are going to eat another 10% of your GDP Your economy is headed for such a train wreck and you don't even see it.

Besides,don't forget the growth of Russia is depand on the rising of resource's Price which is seriously relevant with Chinese growth.if Chinese economy is sag,what will happen to Russia ,do you ever consider it?if you don't believe it ,just google it.

Russian dependence of raw material export is our greatest disease, I welcome the end of it. Steps are being taken to diversify and low prices now are helping us see the light. Our problems are not so deep that we can't get out of it... yours are.

Yes ,China refuses to make SCO a military alliance,so what?Keep friendship is deeply merge in Chinese Culture.

Friendship is deeply merged?? Is that why you occupy Tibet, LAC, Kashmir, Spratly Islands and threaten India and Taiwan on a regular basis?

Do you Russian have any other thought beside fighting against other countris?

Russia has no problem being friendly when we get partners who will work with us. When people cross us they pay the price. We bow to no one... my belated condolences to the crew of New Star, it was an unfortunate incident but our laws must be obeyed.

China hold this organisation just for enhance the relationship with Russia and middle-Aisa countries.of course for some security reason.but we don't wanna to make it a new Warsaw Treaty Organization.can you grow up from the cold war?

This organisation is the Chinese to attempt to butt into our business, fighting terrorists are fine, but China's unwillingness to accept India into the SCO is unacceptable. All China wants to do is control it which is why India is left out b/c they know they would vote with us. SCO should be disolved and replaced with CSTO of CIS. Considering NATO wants to keep expanding it is not dead from their perspective and then we must respond.

Soviet is dead for a long time.

And glad it is, it was not a fun time having little freedom, much like in China.

Besides.if China is a US butt kissing country,why do America worry about China so seriously?

Defence spending, the war hawks are trying to increase purchases of F-22, ABM, and other high end projects and China is an excuse. Most people in US Parliament are happy of China's rise, it means more funding for their debt. Unfortunately for China, when US goes broke, so do you.

 

[Martian]

This is a story about the Eagle, Bear, and Dragon. The Eagle is thinking that it doesn't like the Bear and Dragon one bit.

In the Korean war, the Eagle agreed to an armistice because the Bear and Dragon supported the North Koreans. Otherwise, it would have been a complete victory for the Eagle.

In the Vietnam war, once again, the pesky Bear and Dragon showed up. Despite bombing the heck out of the Vietnamese, this time the Eagle lost the war. The Eagle is thinking: without the help of the Bear and Dragon, this would have been another slam dunk.

After the bitter experiences, the Eagle hatches a plan. I'll put pressure on the Bear and Dragon to force them to stop interfering with my wars. To pressure the Bear, the Eagle extended Nato into Eastern Europe and was trying to extend it to the Ukraine and Georgia. Seeing that the Eagle was busy in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Bear decided to fight back and take a bite out of Georgia (Chomp Chomp on Abkhazia and South Ossetia).

To pressure the Dragon, the Eagle extended generous monetary and military help to rebuild Japan and South Korea. However, recently, the Dragon seemed to be growing stronger. To ensure sufficient pressure on the Dragon, the Eagle waived NPT restrictions and invited the Elephant to the party.

Feeling the pressure from the Eagle and its allies, the Bear and Dragon decide to stick together in their own club called SCO (also known as Moscow-Beijing Axis) and conduct joint exercises called Peace Missions as a warning to the Eagle not to push too hard.

The Eagle has a long memory. It will not soon forget the many eaglet lives lost due to the machinations of the Bear and Dragon. The Eagle and its allies are very powerful economically and militarily. Afraid of the Eagle, the Bear and Dragon decide to stick together for mutual support.

[The author, Martian, is considering writing more children's stories.]
http://larussophobe.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/eagle_american_flag.jpg

 

[smiling_scorpion]

Its nice that you think so but the Chinese economy is not driven by domestic demand but by foreign. What matters for China is confidence in the people of the US, EU, Russia, and India as to how secure their economics are. If their confidence is low, they don't buy which means China goes bust. The recent scandals in China with 1/5th of all monitored products being substandard is not instilling any confidence in our countries when our pets are dying and children being poisoned. For instance, half of all Chinese toy exporters have already shut down. If the trend continues China will no longer be the world's leading toy exporter.

Yes for now ,as I said before,our goverment have notice the risk of foreign-depended economy.and have take some work to change the role from maker to designer and developer,although there's a long way to go,but some positive phenomenon has been seen in China.as for the security of food and toy,I agree with you .it's a big problem for us to make so huge number firms undercontrol,and the corruption is worse the situation.but that not means all of the made-in-China is such things. you Russian is clever enough to make a right choice,both cheap and good will be your choice.and the rule of market will teach the illegal Chinese manufactory a leason. if they continuously do this harmful thing ,they will all bankrupt in the end.we Chinese will be glad to see that as well. and for the title NO1 toy exporter.I don't care about it,you know the rate of profit to make toy in China is extremely low.most of the profit is earned by the foreign R&D company,that's why we are strong desire to change the mode of economoy recently.and the work is undergo for years.

Thats good, because foreign companies are packing up. Only problem with the Chinese model, domestic business have to adhere to different market rules than foreign companies. When being run in that semi-communist mode they aren't nearly as productive as they are being propped up by subsidies as to make foreign companies uncompetitive. In reality, China is hemorrhaging money and has no way in which to compete b/c they are state subsidised monopolies.

no matter if there's a foreign company,the consequence will be the same.The stable economy growth in such hard time is just because the stimulation of CCP's policy and investment in local market.Besides.the national monopoly in the key field like electric,communication,traffic ,enegry,is definitely the basic of Chinese-communist compare with captalism.and that's what make the goverment powerful enough to make the economy on a right track efficiently.Don't blame the nation-control economy as a despotism.your ex-president Putin did the same thing(bring the key field undercontrol ) which make Russia a great growth on economy.

Of course it is.... you have almost five times the population and the US isn't selling jack. Most of their automakers have declared bankruptcy so that is no great feat.

Hi guy,have you ever consider the background of it?Comparing the global car market's degeneration(nearly every country except China)during the finance crisis,chinese Automarket is amazing increasing!We are proud of the number we have sold but also the tendency and raising in this hard time.If it's ture you have said before that chiese economy is totally depend on you foreign consumers' confidence,how dare the chinese people to buy a car when all you foreign guys are merge into crisis which means we have no money to gain and future is totally gloomy?Are we chinese crazy?why no maker in china declare bankerupt but a great profit increasing?isn't the reason that Chinese people have enough money while the US consumer can't ever afford a new car anymore during this crisis time?It's not a difficult to face the reality,my friend.

You want to compare Russia to China... really?? Nominal per capita GDP of Russians are FOUR times higher than China. Average wage in PROC is a dollar an hour. I will spend a weeks worth of Chinese wages on dinner tonight. People in the provinces are rioting for withheld pay, 90,000 strikes, demonstrations and riots just in the past year. While Russia is energy independent, China spends close to 10% of GDP on energy imports. The real bad news for you is your energy consumption is increasing exponentially faster than your GDP growth. That means China is becoming addicted to imported fuels while at the same time you are losing an ever larger chunk of GDP, much of it payed to Russia. Chinese pollution is so bad it is estimated a loss of 10-15% of GDP holding the economy back and your CO2 index is the highest in the world. The deserts keep on reclaiming arable land while your farms dry up. You have so polluted your environment, the bees have died and orchard farmers have to pollinate the fruits by hand... BY HAND!! Big reason Russians don't want to live in the more cozy climate conditions on the Chinese border are the rivers are so polluted, the fish and crops are too polluted to eat and everything has to be shipped in making cost of living very expensive. When I went to the Olympics the air was so polluted I had to wear a face mask, and that was after they took all the cars off the streets and seeded the clouds to make it rain! The economic disparity in your country is growing so vast, there are going to be more riots and strikes than you will be able to handle, 90,000 a year is only the tip of the iceburg. The demand for higher quality control for domestic and foreign consumer goods are going to eat another 10% of your GDP Your economy is headed for such a train wreck and you don't even see it.

"I will spend a weeks worth of Chinese wages on dinner tonight" wow!it must be a very luxury dinner,I'm just a very normal person live in ShangHai.and I only earn roughly 3,000USD per moth.but are you sure normal Rassian really can pay 700USD for supper everyday?Russia must be a super-super-superpower!!Do you know what my words means?never judge a thing one-sided.I never compare the gross of GDP to other countries' just because it is meanless.China has the largest population of the world(nearly ten times of Rassian),if Chinese per capita GDP is the same as Russian now,do you know what will happen?China will be the NO.1.economy in the world(double the USA)!I just compare the rate of growth.Nodoubt that China is fast than Russia.and for the topic of pollution,I admit the ecologic protection is a important issue for China after a long time roughly growth ,and Chinese goverment has poured into changing it.But ,if the truth is like what you said.Chinese is all the dead meat years ago.but the fact is that I'm alive very healthy,and the average life expectancy of Chinese is 72.5 compare to Russian's 65.Is that means Chinese is a definitely evolving race?

Russian dependence of raw material export is our greatest disease, I welcome the end of it. Steps are being taken to diversify and low prices now are helping us see the light. Our problems are not so deep that we can't get out of it... yours are.

Please give me the evidence that we can't get out of our trouble.

Friendship is deeply merged?? Is that why you occupy Tibet, LAC, Kashmir, Spratly Islands and threaten India and Taiwan on a regular basis?

Wow ,It's a extremely funny for Russian to say so.Do you have any idea of history and Culture?For thousands of years,China never aggressive other country for large area of lands even in the fantastic Tang dynasty(one third of global economy,strongest military Force). The saying of so called "occupy" is a conflict topic .To chinese ,this saying just like heard the Moscow is occupied by Russia.funny?I dont wanna to describ Russian history .you are very clear about it .

Russia has no problem being friendly when we get partners who will work with us. When people cross us they pay the price. We bow to no one... my belated condolences to the crew of New Star, it was an unfortunate incident but our laws must be obeyed.

Yes,as the old saying, only permanent interests for nation.but dont ask other conutry to obey the ruled you make just like the USA usually do.Let's agree the disagree.above all,thanks for your condolence.

Defence spending, the war hawks are trying to increase purchases of F-22, ABM, and other high end projects and China is an excuse. Most people in US Parliament are happy of China's rise, it means more funding for their debt. Unfortunately for China, when US goes broke, so do you.

If for this target ,I think Russia is a better excuse.firstly you have a stronger military Force,secondly,you are certainly not a butt kissing country like "China".In addition,Unfortunately,if US and China goes broke ,so do you.please realize the truth of global economy. :twizt:

 

[SATISH]

Hey smiling_scorpion,
Stop being so hard to this young Russian, too much frustration is not good for growing up

better watch your words when talking to or about Vlad.....He is a Think tank and a military pro...

 

[redragon]

better watch your words when talking to or about Vlad.....He is a Think tank and a military pro...

My apology for my words.
Just curious, from where you know that he is a think tank and military pro?
with due respect, I can't help but suspecting the ability of Russian think tank nowaday. Because He obviously either narrowed his research on only very limited and biased materials or he simply pretent those are all the facts or aspects regarding the rather complicated international relationships.

 

[SATISH]

My apology for my words.
Just curious, from where you know that he is a think tank and military pro?
with due respect, I can't help but suspecting the ability of Russian think tank nowaday. Because He obviously either narrowed his research on only very limited and biased materials or he simply pretent those are all the facts or aspects regarding the rather complicated international relationships.

Well the thing is his materials are well researched and you better counter it with facts. Links and facts that are neutral has more credibility than rants.

 

[smiling_scorpion]

[mod]get back to the topic everyone. beyond this point all off topic posts will be deleted.

thanks.[/mod]

 

[redragon]

Well the thing is his materials are well researched and you better counter it with facts. Links and facts that are neutral has more credibility than rants.

Good, I believe now everyone knows how you know your claim. I can live with it.
And about the axis, I think it does exist to some extend, since now China+Russia is still< USA, so they will continue to co-op on some issues, however, that does not mean they won't co-op with USA on some other issues, Mod Edit : Senseless ranting not needed , neither the forum or nor the respected members have any part to play in the situation Ideology is simply a tool played by players in this game, people on the top never take the tool as the goal, there are endless examples in the history to support my arguement, for instance, President of USA went to China to meet the "worst dictator in human history" Chairman Mao to cook a plot against Soviet the great union which dismantled by it's own leader with it's "think tank"

 

[Vladimir79]

Yes for now ,as I said before,our goverment have notice the risk of foreign-depended economy.and have take some work to change the role from maker to designer and developer,although there's a long way to go,but some positive phenomenon has been seen in China.as for the security of food and toy,I agree with you .it's a big problem for us to make so huge number firms undercontrol,and the corruption is worse the situation.but that not means all of the made-in-China is such things. you Russian is clever enough to make a right choice,both cheap and good will be your choice.and the rule of market will teach the illegal Chinese manufactory a leason. if they continuously do this harmful thing ,they will all bankrupt in the end.we Chinese will be glad to see that as well. and for the title NO1 toy exporter.I don't care about it,you know the rate of profit to make toy in China is extremely low.most of the profit is earned by the foreign R&D company,that's why we are strong desire to change the mode of economoy recently.and the work is undergo for years.

I appreciate the sincerity of your words. We know for a fact that at least 1/5th of all productes "Made in China" are substandard or tainted products. The number is likely far higher due to loss of business concerns. Parents in the Chinese countryside are storming factories demanding they be shut down killing their children and poisening their families. Instead of that, the government just moves them away instead of fixing the problem. Even shoddy Chinese construction is causing riots as schools are collapsing on children. There are so many riots for unpaid wages it has crippled many provincial regions. The Chinese response is to crack down on it with high security and media blackouts to stop spreading social unrest. Unlike China, we do not crack down on strikes and worker riots with hardline police tactics and tight media control. Instead, Putin himself came down to a tense situation and personally told the people they would be rehired, and you know what... they were. Chinese social concience is like a string who is starting to unwind, and the further the economy expands the more tension is placed on it. Sooner or later, it will snap.

no matter if there's a foreign company,the consequence will be the same.The stable economy growth in such hard time is just because the stimulation of CCP's policy and investment in local market.Besides.the national monopoly in the key field like electric,communication,traffic ,enegry,is definitely the basic of Chinese-communist compare with captalism.and that's what make the goverment powerful enough to make the economy on a right track efficiently.Don't blame the nation-control economy as a despotism.your ex-president Putin did the same thing(bring the key field undercontrol ) which make Russia a great growth on economy.

Is that why Putin and the rest of the Russian investment funds are seeking private investors in key state owned industry? I think not, Putin may have kept the industries from going under but they are falling behind in recapitalisation funds which is why we are selling up to 50% of state owned stocks. He knows we can't afford to keep them under state control because everyone screaming for modernisation loans from VTB/VEB banques are falling short in credit ratings. The Russian economy is undergoing a massive transformation Only profitable industry will remain once this crises is over. Unlike China, we are willing to fold companies operating in the red.

Hi guy,have you ever consider the background of it?Comparing the global car market's degeneration(nearly every country except China)during the finance crisis,chinese Automarket is amazing increasing!We are proud of the number we have sold but also the tendency and raising in this hard time.

Have you ever considered the reasons for it? CCP has cut taxes on vehicles by over 50% and have up to 40% cash payout on traded autos. Your sales are completely spurred by a heavy dole paid out by the government. You aren't selling cars, you are giving them away. Your auto industry is in worse financial shape than the US and yet you are proud of it? Do you not know what this means for the future of China? Sticking a bunch of people in petrol dependent cars is going to make China so reliant on imported energy your entire economy will come to a halt with the peak of crude.

If it's ture you have said before that chiese economy is totally depend on you foreign consumers' confidence,how dare the chinese people to buy a car when all you foreign guys are merge into crisis which means we have no money to gain and future is totally gloomy?Are we chinese crazy?why no maker in china declare bankrupt but a great profit increasing?isn't the reason that Chinese people have enough money while the US consumer can't ever afford a new car anymore during this crisis time?It's not a difficult to face the reality,my friend.

The reality my friend is you are not making money, your auto makers are heavily subsidised practically giving cars away. Not only are you hemorrhaging funds, you are also becoming dependent on a resource you have litte of and will not be able to afford for much longer.

"I will spend a weeks worth of Chinese wages on dinner tonight" wow!it must be a very luxury dinner,I'm just a very normal person live in ShangHai.and I only earn roughly 3,000USD per moth.but are you sure normal Rassian really can pay 700USD for supper everyday?Russia must be a super-super-superpower!!Do you know what my words means?never judge a thing one-sided.

You are not a very normal person living in Shanghai, the minimum hourly wage in your city is 88 cents and average is $1. Your $3,000 monthly earnings only exemplify the enormous economic disparity in your countries most prosperous city. Shanghai is mostly a bunch of country peasents coming from the interior to get one of those $1 an hour wage factory jobs. They work 80+ hours a week and their overtime pay is half their hourly wage. So 40 hours at $1 and 40 at 50 cents makes the average monthly wage $240 and that is doing well in China which is why people run to Shanghai's garment industry. Russian overtime is time and a half and we are only allowed to work 120 overtime a year. I make $1,800 while the average wage in my krai is $700. So I make 2.5 the average while you make 13 times more than average Shanghai wage. The average Chinese worker used to make $120 but wages have been increased to $160 which is shipping those jobs to Vietnam. You are one of the 150 million people on China's coast who have benefited from their rapid growth, there are another 150 million who have migrated from the interior to pick up the menial jobs. There are still 1 billion people in the interior who are left behind and they are agast at how they live compared to you. China is a ticking time bomb just waiting to explode.

I never compare the gross of GDP to other countries' just because it is meanless.China has the largest population of the world(nearly ten times of Rassian),if Chinese per capita GDP is the same as Russian now,do you know what will happen?China will be the NO.1.economy in the world(double the USA)!I just compare the rate of growth.Nodoubt that China is fast than Russia.

If China is able to provide Russian level of living to 1.3 billion people you will have to have universal healthcare which for us is paid by fuel incomes you do not have. I read China plans a $126 billion plan for UC by 2011 to help quell unrest, but lets be realistic, to cover 1.3 billion people would cost most of your GDP, it isn't going to happen. If every family in China has an auto is going to raise your fuel import costs to almost your entire GDP as well as deplete world reserves, that isn't going to happen. To raise wages to Russian levels would ship your export industry to the third world, they can't afford the loss. The CCP has made all these promises to your people when they know they could never hope to keep them. The only thing keeping the people happy is breakneck double digit growth and heavy government subsidy. Well growth is at its lowest since 1990 and subsidy is at its highest than ever before. Banques have dumped a trillion dollars in risky low yield investments just this year to increase domestic spending. You are facing a financial meltdown. People are rioting and striking in ever increasing numbers, heaven help you when civil revolt sweeps the country. China has been the cooking the books and not is all as well as the CCP makes it out to be.

I suggest you read this article...

How China Cooks Its Books | Foreign Policy

and for the topic of pollution,I admit the ecologic protection is a important issue for China after a long time roughly growth ,and Chinese goverment has poured into changing it.But ,if the truth is like what you said.Chinese is all the dead meat years ago.but the fact is that I'm alive very healthy,and the average life expectancy of Chinese is 72.5 compare to Russian's 65.Is that means Chinese is a definitely evolving race?

Considering 75% of men smoke cigerettes, it won't last long. Your pollution is stifling GDP growth by over 10% too.

Please give me the evidence that we can't get out of our trouble.

1. Imported energy rises almost 3 times faster than GDP

Silobreaker: China's crude oil imports grow 18.02 pct year-on-y...

2. CCP cooks the books making economy look "rosier" than it really is.

How%20China%20Cooks%20Its%20Books%20|%20Foreign%20Policy]How China Cooks Its Books | Foreign Policy

3. Riots and strikes have grown to over 90,000 per year.

4. Chinese domestic growth is heavily subsidised and apparently fake in numbers. What happens to those jobs when the money dries up, 10s of millions of unemployed people.

5. 75% of all Chinese men are smokers which will kill 50 million people by 2020 and make universal healthcare plans impossibly expensive.

BBC NEWS | Health | China's cigarette threat

6. Half trillion in banque loans this year are going to ineffiecient state owned firms, auto, steel, textiles and are bad debt. Once the subsidies dry up, they go under. If not, they will still not be able to repay which means the banques go under.

7. Half of all Chinese loans just in the first half of this year ($500 billion) have gone to real-estate markets which have artifically driven up housing prices. China is facing a housing crises of its own. To stave off this crises Chinese banques are considering demanding 50% down payment on property. This is going to kill Chinese housing sektor making homes unaffordable, and those that have already been duped to buying overvalued property bankrupt.

8. China has fallen into the "Dollar Trap." While the US dollar plunges in value and China holds trillions in low yield T-bill returns, they are losing a hundred billion in global currency inflation losses every year. China is so heavily engrossed in US T-bills, they can't pull it out due to fear of collapsing the value of the very assets they wish to save.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/opinion/03krugman.html

9. Chinese economic disparity is the greatest in the world and only growing. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Secret China - Widening income disparity will affect China?s economic development

10. 1/5th of all consumer products are substandard or tainted according to Beijing. Considering they "cook the books" it is probably far higher. Faith in Chinese manufacture is not only shaken, but crumbling as more scandals come to light about shoddy and dangerous Chinese products.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Fifth of China goods sub-standard

Wow ,It's a extremely funny for Russian to say so.Do you have any idea of history and Culture?For thousands of years,China never aggressive other country for large area of lands even in the fantastic Tang dynasty(one third of global economy,strongest military Force). The saying of so called "occupy" is a conflict topic .To chinese ,this saying just like heard the Moscow is occupied by Russia.funny?I dont wanna to describ Russian history .you are very clear about it .

I don't think Communist Chinese existed in the Tang. If the Imperials found out about such shoddy workmanship they would chop your head off. Now they just cover it up. The Ming dynasty was even more fantastic with the Treasure Fleet that ruled the seas from China to Afrika. Was Zhu Di defeated in battle? No, they gave it up b/c Confucian ideals called for xenophobic rules of contact with outsiders. Now that the "closed China" is gone they are not hesitant to take what they think is theirs. Russian history is very clear... we were conquerors and I proudly admit it. I'm not hiding from it as you are from your Chicom history. Chinese have more disputed land area than any nation on earth.

Yes,as the old saying, only permanent interests for nation.but dont ask other conutry to obey the ruled you make just like the USA usually do.Let's agree the disagree.above all,thanks for your condolence.

Your nation's interest should trump all others and your interests with the US are only hampering your economic prosperity. Your FOREX are tied up in underperforming T-bills and dependence on exports to US are hampering your domestic consumption. The whole time you are headed for a trade war which you will lose.

 

[Martian]

Is this the famous "China collapse" theory? The Economist has been predicting the imminent collapse of China for the last 30 years. For more information regarding "China collapse," here's an article from the Los Angeles Times. See Fear of China's Collapse Is Greatly Exaggerated - Los Angeles Times

Vladimir, how many years do you think it will take for China to collapse?

 

[smiling_scorpion]

I appreciate the sincerity of your words. We know for a fact that at least 1/5th of all productes "Made in China" are substandard or tainted products. The number is likely far higher due to loss of business concerns. Parents in the Chinese countryside are storming factories demanding they be shut down killing their children and poisening their families. Instead of that, the government just moves them away instead of fixing the problem. Even shoddy Chinese construction is causing riots as schools are collapsing on children. There are so many riots for unpaid wages it has crippled many provincial regions. The Chinese response is to crack down on it with high security and media blackouts to stop spreading social unrest. Unlike China, we do not crack down on strikes and worker riots with hardline police tactics and tight media control. Instead, Putin himself came down to a tense situation and personally told the people they would be rehired, and you know what... they were. Chinese social concience is like a string who is starting to unwind, and the further the economy expands the more tension is placed on it. Sooner or later, it will snap.



Is that why Putin and the rest of the Russian investment funds are seeking private investors in key state owned industry? I think not, Putin may have kept the industries from going under but they are falling behind in recapitalisation funds which is why we are selling up to 50% of state owned stocks. He knows we can't afford to keep them under state control because everyone screaming for modernisation loans from VTB/VEB banques are falling short in credit ratings. The Russian economy is undergoing a massive transformation Only profitable industry will remain once this crises is over. Unlike China, we are willing to fold companies operating in the red.




Have you ever considered the reasons for it? CCP has cut taxes on vehicles by over 50% and have up to 40% cash payout on traded autos. Your sales are completely spurred by a heavy dole paid out by the government. You aren't selling cars, you are giving them away. Your auto industry is in worse financial shape than the US and yet you are proud of it? Do you not know what this means for the future of China? Sticking a bunch of people in petrol dependent cars is going to make China so reliant on imported energy your entire economy will come to a halt with the peak of crude.



The reality my friend is you are not making money, your auto makers are heavily subsidised practically giving cars away. Not only are you hemorrhaging funds, you are also becoming dependent on a resource you have litte of and will not be able to afford for much longer.




You are not a very normal person living in Shanghai, the minimum hourly wage in your city is 88 cents and average is $1. Your $3,000 monthly earnings only exemplify the enormous economic disparity in your countries most prosperous city. Shanghai is mostly a bunch of country peasents coming from the interior to get one of those $1 an hour wage factory jobs. They work 80+ hours a week and their overtime pay is half their hourly wage. So 40 hours at $1 and 40 at 50 cents makes the average monthly wage $240 and that is doing well in China which is why people run to Shanghai's garment industry. Russian overtime is time and a half and we are only allowed to work 120 overtime a year. I make $1,800 while the average wage in my krai is $700. So I make 2.5 the average while you make 13 times more than average Shanghai wage. The average Chinese worker used to make $120 but wages have been increased to $160 which is shipping those jobs to Vietnam. You are one of the 150 million people on China's coast who have benefited from their rapid growth, there are another 150 million who have migrated from the interior to pick up the menial jobs. There are still 1 billion people in the interior who are left behind and they are agast at how they live compared to you. China is a ticking time bomb just waiting to explode.



If China is able to provide Russian level of living to 1.3 billion people you will have to have universal healthcare which for us is paid by fuel incomes you do not have. I read China plans a $126 billion plan for UC by 2011 to help quell unrest, but lets be realistic, to cover 1.3 billion people would cost most of your GDP, it isn't going to happen. If every family in China has an auto is going to raise your fuel import costs to almost your entire GDP as well as deplete world reserves, that isn't going to happen. To raise wages to Russian levels would ship your export industry to the third world, they can't afford the loss. The CCP has made all these promises to your people when they know they could never hope to keep them. The only thing keeping the people happy is breakneck double digit growth and heavy government subsidy. Well growth is at its lowest since 1990 and subsidy is at its highest than ever before. Banques have dumped a trillion dollars in risky low yield investments just this year to increase domestic spending. You are facing a financial meltdown. People are rioting and striking in ever increasing numbers, heaven help you when civil revolt sweeps the country. China has been the cooking the books and not is all as well as the CCP makes it out to be.

I suggest you read this article...

How China Cooks Its Books | Foreign Policy



Considering 75% of men smoke cigerettes, it won't last long. Your pollution is stifling GDP growth by over 10% too.




1. Imported energy rises almost 3 times faster than GDP

Silobreaker: China's crude oil imports grow 18.02 pct year-on-y...

2. CCP cooks the books making economy look "rosier" than it really is.

How%20China%20Cooks%20Its%20Books%20|%20Foreign%20Policy]How China Cooks Its Books | Foreign Policy

3. Riots and strikes have grown to over 90,000 per year.

4. Chinese domestic growth is heavily subsidised and apparently fake in numbers. What happens to those jobs when the money dries up, 10s of millions of unemployed people.

5. 75% of all Chinese men are smokers which will kill 50 million people by 2020 and make universal healthcare plans impossibly expensive.

BBC NEWS | Health | China's cigarette threat

6. Half trillion in banque loans this year are going to ineffiecient state owned firms, auto, steel, textiles and are bad debt. Once the subsidies dry up, they go under. If not, they will still not be able to repay which means the banques go under.

7. Half of all Chinese loans just in the first half of this year ($500 billion) have gone to real-estate markets which have artifically driven up housing prices. China is facing a housing crises of its own. To stave off this crises Chinese banques are considering demanding 50% down payment on property. This is going to kill Chinese housing sektor making homes unaffordable, and those that have already been duped to buying overvalued property bankrupt.

8. China has fallen into the "Dollar Trap." While the US dollar plunges in value and China holds trillions in low yield T-bill returns, they are losing a hundred billion in global currency inflation losses every year. China is so heavily engrossed in US T-bills, they can't pull it out due to fear of collapsing the value of the very assets they wish to save.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/opinion/03krugman.html

9. Chinese economic disparity is the greatest in the world and only growing. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Secret China - Widening income disparity will affect China?s economic development

10. 1/5th of all consumer products are substandard or tainted according to Beijing. Considering they "cook the books" it is probably far higher. Faith in Chinese manufacture is not only shaken, but crumbling as more scandals come to light about shoddy and dangerous Chinese products.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Fifth of China goods sub-standard

Appriciate for your elabrative discussion.altough some disagreement,I'm happy to discuss a topic with you useing evidence and numerical data who is not like someone that only meanless screams.I meant continue to counterplea your point by segments,but the Naional days' holiday is over ,so time is limited ,and I can't do so although I'd like to .simple declaration.none of the Countries in the world is perfect,Including Russia,US,China,Inida.and some of your point is definitly the truth,and I don't never deny it .we chinese also blame those problems in chinese forum.dare you declare there's no complaint in Russia?We are happy when there are still many problem some of them are serious just because we live a better life than ever before.our life level is rasing comare to yesterday.clear?And ,We can't hope all this problem is solved in one night ,that's impossible.We support the CCP as a goverment just because it do better than every ex-goverment such as KMT during 100 years,at least,World began to show respect to China rather than treat China as a weak fading dog country as 60 years before.China is never the half-colony of foreign.Can you understand the emotion of us?In additon,I don't believe the problems will gone if we change to a democratic goverment ,and if we do this sloppily,there must be a Chaos,we will lose the life of nowadays.Western experts have the same point of you for a long time ,and they also predict the China degeneration and collapse in exactly years,but every time they are slapped by the truth.I will struggle for a better future with other chinese,and we have strong confidence for a stronger China with less problem.we also hope Russia will rebound to a strong country along with China as a good neighbor.last but not the least,I love my mother land,China,not the CCP.thanks.

 

[youngindian]

China and Russia: Allies of circumstance

14 October, 2009

China and Russia: Allies of circumstance - RT

 

[qilaotou]

14 October, 2009

China and Russia: Allies of circumstance - RT

It's not likely that these two countries would ever enjoy any sort of alliance. Russia is recovering and will become stronger in the future but Russia is too Euro-centric and conservative in mentality and culture. China and Russia can be normal neighbours but not close friends. Lots of Russians including politicians are still looking at us orientals yellow little thing.

 

[redragon]

Mod Edit :

If you identify him, Please mention it in his introduction thread or drop a visitor's message but not in between the discussions.

 

[Vladimir79]

It's not likely that these two countries would ever enjoy any sort of alliance. Russia is recovering and will become stronger in the future but Russia is too Euro-centric and conservative in mentality and culture. China and Russia can be normal neighbours but not close friends. Lots of Russians including politicians are still looking at us orientals yellow little thing.

Save the speech... everytime I went to inland China I was called "yangguizi" or "waiguoren" with people pointing and staring. Most xenophobic people I have ever seen.

 

[qilaotou]

Save the speech... everytime I went to inland China I was called "yangguizi" or "waiguoren" with people pointing and staring.

"waiguoren" is the translation of foreigner. That is who you are in China. "yangguizi" is a sarcastic variant of yanren, an old translation of foreigner.

Most xenophobic people I have ever seen.

With your attitude shown in our discussion, I think it's understandable that you felt so.

 

[Vladimir79]

"waiguoren" is the translation of foreigner. That is who you are in China.

Instead of calling my name, they call me waigouren like I as a person don't exist.

"yangguizi" is a sarcastic variant of yanren, an old translation of foreigner.

No, it means foreign devil, or in my case, White Devil. Having people yell and point that at you does not only make you feel unwelcome, but hated.

With your attitude shown in our discussion, I think it's understandable that you felt so.

My attitude is based on experience. People of inland China are taught to hate outsiders, it is a part of Confucian beliefs that have translated into modern feeling.