More trouble in MMRCA deal

[p2prada]

So Rafale will do what Russians have done with TOT of T90S

LOL. Prove it.

85% of the T-90 is made indigenously by a supplier that has made thousands of tanks for the Indian Army. All relevant ToT has been transferred as of 2006.

Let's not bring this into Rafale thread.

 

[ersakthivel]

We are paying for TOT and those French are denying that to us by offering the same through Reliance.

HAL is making LCA, SU 30 MKI and in future FGFA and MRCA. So we can build on tech knowledge on the all the above aircraft and make AMCA etc and become self sufficient.

Reliance will only going to get us planes without TOT. They have no wait NOOOOOO experience with aerospace. So Rafale will do what Russians have done with TOT of T90S

How come Dassault is so confident about reliance which is facing serious troubles over gold plating of expenses over offshore oilfields.

Reliance has no heavy engineering arm worth the name. If Dasault is really serious in intention it ought to have chosen L&T or TATA who have years of assembly line high tech operations.L&T has decades of experience in making boilers and deeply involved in Arihant project and ship building.Why sweet heart intentions over relaince which has just set up a aerospace shell company with one retired PSU head as chief?Just to import all the french components as CKDs and convert reliance arm as it's local branch operation.the guys at reliance won't even have the knowledge to estimate the manufacturing cost of a simple bolt on the RAFALE.

Other than petrochemicals reliance has not given any major successes to it's shreholders all these years. At least HAl has qualified personnel involved in the production of fighters for decades.

the soft corner for reliance is to avoid TOT and make a mockery of local production by simply assembling imported CKDs , in effect the reliance assembly line will become just another arm of Dassault in India.It is quite easy to do that. Once you cast doubt on HAl itself , it is easy to write off any other private players or defence PSUs that can supply locally made parts to RAFALE.

Dassault wants to avoid the sukhoi-30MKI like situation, where HAL has more control over the fighter after years of haggling around.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/12/sukhoi-crash-flaws-in-russian-design-or.html
So HAL was even able to assist the russians in sorting out the problems of Sukhois

 

[sayareakd]

Rafale like Reliance as they will be practically dependent on Rafale so much so that in the end it will be back to Rafale for everything.

So why the hell we pay for TOT when profits of the same will go to Reliance

Once Reliance get to be formal partner for Rafale for production they are going to poach staff of HAL.

 

[halloweene]

Wait a minute,
Dassault has already aknowledged HAL as prime contractor. The present issue is (according to one source) about the responsabilities. Why bring Reliance back?

 

[sayareakd]

If Rafale deal dont fell through as we have planned then Govt has hinted at EF.

 

[Patriot]

Rafale like Reliance as they will be practically dependent on Rafale so much so that in the end it will be back to Rafale for everything.

So why the hell we pay for TOT when profits of the same will go to Reliance

Once Reliance get to be formal partner for Rafale for production they are going to poach staff of HAL.

Not just HAL employess only, Reliance shall trigger the disinvestment of HAL through it's deep contact in Govt. & leading political parties & may own significant stake in HAL eventually. Reliance shall use all possbile crooked tactics to bend things in it's favour & make profit on tax payers money.

 

[ersakthivel]

Not just HAL employess only, Reliance shall trigger the disinvestment of HAL through it's deep contact in Govt. & leading political parties & may own significant stake in HAL eventually. Reliance shall use all possbile crooked tactics to bend things in it's favour & make profit on tax payers money.

if there is any company that has to be roped in it must be L&T, not reliance.

 

[Patriot]

if there is any company that has to be roped in it must be L&T, not reliance.

Before anything HAL must be reformed. A good leader can turn it around in 5 years. It requires cultural change, accountability above all it's responsibility for country. In short sense of pride. The disivestment at this stage wiil not be much fruitfull. Another option HAl can be divided in to two to three entities with respect to specialisation & each dividion suppose to have good R& D dptt. with adequate resources as it has very diverse portfolio. We can not risk haphazard tranfer of HAL to just any pvt. player, it has to happen in a very structured & result oriented manner.

 

[Daredevil]

France will have to accept India's binding conditions in MMRCA deal

TNN | Apr 9, 2013, 03.30 AM IST

NEW DELHI: France will have to accept India's conditions in the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project if it wants to eventually bag the contract to supply 126 Rafale fighters to the IAF.

Defence ministry officials on Monday made it clear that French firm Dassault Aviation could not back out of the conditions specified in the original tender or RFP (request for proposal) since they were "binding" on it.

Negotiations between MoD and Dassault have been proceeding at a slow pace for over a year now in the already long-delayed MMRCA project, under which the first 18 jets are to come in "flyaway condition'', with the rest 108 fighters being manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics over six years.

The major bone of contention has been Dassault's demand that it will be responsible only for the first 18 jets, while HAL will have to shoulder responsibility for the other 108 fighters after the kits for them are supplied to the defence PSU. MoD, however, has rejected this contention, holding that Dassault will be responsible for the execution of the entire project.

With this imbroglio holding up matters for the last few months, the two sides on Monday finally decided to keep aside their differences on this issue for now while moving ahead on other matters like pricing and support services. "It's a very complex project...negotiations for it will take time," said an official.

It was in January last year that Rafale had been selected over Eurofighter Typhoon - the two had earlier outclassed the American F/A-18 `Super Hornet' and F-16 `Super Viper', the Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen in extensive field trials - for the final commercial negotiations since it had emerged as the L-1 (lowest bidder) both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs.

France will have to accept India's binding conditions in MMRCA deal - The Times of India

 

[Armand2REP]

The solution is to put the HAL assembly line of Rafale under control of Dassault. That way we can make sure it gets done right.

 

[satish007]

The solution is to put the HAL assembly line of Rafale under control of Dassault. That way we can make sure it gets done right.

Then Chinese will know everything of HAL.

 

[Patriot]

The solution is to put the HAL assembly line of Rafale under control of Dassault. That way we can make sure it gets done right.

Better solution be that HAL buy out Dassault it self.

 

[Shirman]

If Rafale deal dont fell through as we have planned then Govt has hinted at EF.

I guess the solution will be find out later anyways how can the Govt hinted at EF, when Finmeccanica and Alenia aeronautica are banned in India aka typhoons Italian connection..........also Bjp , subu swamy, left will eat the govt like tandoori chicken now that wikileaks and U.S. diplomatic cables have opened the can of worms in Gandhi family role in India's fighter a/c defense procurement process...........

i guess Americans could sell their gold plated super hornets via fms route as superbugs have some life left as they will eventually be replaced by F/a-xx 6th gen fighter beyond 2025.......

 

[halloweene]

Sources said the differences have been resolved and the negotiations have moved forward.

Read more: HAL's poor track record casts shadow on French fighter-jet deal | Mail Online
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So it may have been already overcome.

 

[sayareakd]

The solution is to put the HAL assembly line of Rafale under control of Dassault. That way we can make sure it gets done right.

You give us complete tot and forget about what we do with it.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

The solution is to put the HAL assembly line of Rafale under control of Dassault. That way we can make sure it gets done right.

100% ToT or No Money, i am sure there are others out there who would comply to this norm.

Balls to you..

 

[bose]

No one wants to lose the contract, neither IAF nor the Dassault... both will be loser on such a situation... Hope in next two months all such issues will be resolved...

 

[halloweene]

At Le Bourget Air Show?

 

[p2prada]

So it may have been already overcome.

Dassault will eventually have to relent. Saying Reliance can handle it while claiming HAL cannot is an oxymoron. Reliance has 0 experience in aerospace. If HAL cannot handle it then Reliance is a definite failure.

This is an attempt by Dassault to prevent the leakage of technology into India's other aerospace programs, even if it is marginal and at the same time increase the workshare because HAL can obviously handle much more of it compared to Reliance.

Thales did not have such issues with BEL if the contracts have already been signed.

In the end IAF wants the aircraft, so the deal is pretty much done despite this problem.