More Talwar Class for Indian Navy

[AshutoshNSingh]

Sound like Corruption involvement..

We successfully made Shivalik class and now we are not funding nor giving orders nor upgrading ship yards but trying to import more of these..

corruption certainly. We now need bigger frigates than the Krivak IV, and we are capable to build them ourselves. Then why import?

 

[Yusuf]

That is what you have already said, But what i am asking is different, Nor you or Yusuf are answering any of the call i made.. >>





We all know about the issues and hence the import the same thing repeated in past by our babus too..

I want to know the following details i have noted in numbers, these are questions..

Again same question, where will the capacity come from? MDL making Shivaliks, Kolkatas, Scorpenes. GRSE making Mamortas, Kolkatas. Modernization and expansion of capacity required or utilize the two private shipyards who can produce the ships.

In the interim, we have to buy to cover for falling numbers.

 

[Payeng]

That is what you have already said, But what i am asking is different, Nor you or Yusuf are answering any of the call i made.. >>





We all know about the issues and hence the import the same thing repeated in past by our babus too..

I want to know the following details i have noted in numbers, these are questions..

Let us assume that on 2000 Navy projected 12 new frigates to be inducted by 2015, orders were distributed among domestic and international shipyards for the cause, with a maximum of 3 ships per batch till delivered, now what would you suggest for the Navy? when 9 of those ships had been realised till 2013, go for the Shivaliks again? Note that the Navy is the buyer and final user not developer and planner.

 

[Mr.Ryu]

Hmmm 3 Billion $$$ for 3 ships ? why is it so costly or is it some advanced tech ?

I think we must construct our own new shipyard if there is no more free space for new ship construction or more private players rather 3billion $$$ to Russian economy

 

[arnabmit]

@Kunal Biswas are you asking about lack of capacity increase of our shipbuilders?

I guess India has a immediate plan to acquire 125 (?) ships very fast. However once this phase passes, rate of induction will go down, and if shipbuilding berths are increased now, at a later stage most of the new berths would just sit idle.

 

[Yusuf]

@Kunal Biswas are you asking about lack of capacity increase of our shipbuilders?

I guess India has a immediate plan to acquire 125 (?) ships very fast. However once this phase passes, rate of induction will go down, and if shipbuilding berths are increased now, at a later stage most of the new berths would just sit idle.

Capacity will never be idle. We need more capacity. India's requirement is growing. 125 ships is not a "phase". Its a continuous process.

 

[p2prada]

Even when working at full capacity and at the risk of delays, like the Kolkata class delay in getting the Barak SAM, there is a chance IN's current goals will not be met even with the imports.

Even if we give orders for 10 Shivalik class today, or the P-17A, the shipyards cannot yet match the Russian speed.

The difference between launch and commissioning of ships in Russia for frigates is 2 years. In China it is 1 year for frigates and 2 years for destroyers + they build more than what we do. In India it was 6 - 7 years for Shivalik and 6+ years for Kolkata class. The Navy is looking to cut that down by more than half for P-15B and P-17A. Hope that happens. Until then we have to import to replace our older ships which have already been decommissioned.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

My view is not a tunnel view, In war everyone is equally responsible, keeping that in mind one has to move forward, Now what i asked.. >>

1. None are upgraded..
2. Problems are still unsolved no solution yet passed for stuck up projects, Ignored at best..
3. No orders are issued as the shipyards do have ability to do simultaneously projects..

Now as i told before, we are not funding nor giving orders nor upgrading ship yards but trying to import more of these just like in case of T-90S fisco, Though unlike Arjun back then Shivalik are already operational..

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You are repeating same thing back again, about @Yusuf : MDL is not making Shivaliks just stuck on Kolkata and GRSE stuck with kamorta class corvette only..

Let us assume that on 2000 Navy projected 12 new frigates to be inducted by 2015, orders were distributed among domestic and international shipyards for the cause, with a maximum of 3 ships per batch till delivered, now what would you suggest for the Navy? when 9 of those ships had been realised till 2013, go for the Shivaliks again? Note that the Navy is the buyer and final user not developer and planner.

Again same question, where will the capacity come from? MDL making Shivaliks, Kolkatas, Scorpenes. GRSE making Mamortas, Kolkatas. Modernization and expansion of capacity required or utilize the two private shipyards who can produce the ships.

In the interim, we have to buy to cover for falling numbers.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If we are going to have a larger fleet we will need those docks for maintence and other purposes..

See how China working out with its yards..

@Kunal Biswas are you asking about lack of capacity increase of our shipbuilders?

I guess India has a immediate plan to acquire 125 (?) ships very fast. However once this phase passes, rate of induction will go down, and if shipbuilding berths are increased now, at a later stage most of the new berths would just sit idle.

 

[Yusuf]

Kunal, kolkata class is being shared by MDL and GRSE. If you don't have enough dry docks, how will you make more ships?

I am with you for local manufacturing and I am a proponent of the indigenous defence manufacturing. I am only addressing current problems and why India has to order the Talwar class from Russia.

Yes India has to expand its local base for shipbuilding as with other military equipment manufacturing. No doubt about that. I am not a fan of improved equipment but only a supporter of arming our forces adequately to keep it fighting for and capable of facing any aggression as well as safeguard Indian interests.

It may sound odd, privatization is the only solution for India to address the corruption problems. Ministers and officers will be able to make money out of private companies in India IF its considered that buying from PSU does not allow money making and the reason to import. At least in this case, money is spent on Indian equipment and money stays in India.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is where you are talking, I want to talk about solutions of the given problems i have noted earlier..

Lets talk about solution rather problems more..

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Imports are not solutions in long run..

Kunal, kolkata class is being shared by MDL and GRSE. If you don't have enough dry docks, how will you make more ships?

I am with you for local manufacturing and I am a proponent of the indigenous defence manufacturing. I am only addressing current problems and why India has to order the Talwar class from Russia.

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Like Imports, privatization have there own issues much more serious than PSU..

We have a good system just full of weeds, we need to weed out weeds, there is no other way..

It may sound odd, privatization is the only solution for India to address the corruption problems. Ministers and officers will be able to make money out of private companies in India IF its considered that buying from PSU does not allow money making and the reason to import. At least in this case, money is spent on Indian equipment and money stays in India.

 

[Yusuf]

Kunal what I have said is nothing new from me. I have always said this.

But the point in this thread was why Talwar right now from Russia and I offered by reasons.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Those reasons are same once we get used to hear in almost every case of imports since 1950s, nothing new indeed..

 

[Yusuf]

Those reasons are same once we get used to hear in almost every case of imports since 1950s, nothing new indeed..

And the reason is no one paid attention to domestic set up. We will keep fighting over this while armed forces will be left with no weapons to fight.
Political will as well as support from the armed forces has to come. Till then we will keep facing these issues.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Such comments ' We will keep fighting over this while armed forces will be left with no weapons to fight ' are Illogical and shows weakness for corruption..

2million strong army cannot import every thing as you suggest to fight a war, This is not an excuse for imports and corruption involve with it since generations..

As i suspect in this ' Talwar ' purchase too..

And the reason is no one paid attention to domestic set up. We will keep fighting over this while armed forces will be left with no weapons to fight.Political will as well as support from the armed forces has to come. Till then we will keep facing these issues.

 

[average american]

If I remember right they have taken twice as long to build and cost twice as much as they were suppose too. It a little hard to belive they are stealthy if they give off smoke.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Every ship equipped with diesel engines will give out smoke..

It a little hard to belive they are stealthy if they give off smoke.

 

[Yusuf]

Such comments ' We will keep fighting over this while armed forces will be left with no weapons to fight ' are Illogical and shows weakness for corruption..

2million strong army cannot import every thing as you suggest to fight a war, This is not an excuse for imports and corruption involve with it since generations..

As i suspect in this ' Talwar ' purchase too..

Agree that we need our own production. But criticizing imports of today for the forces for overall lack of both capability and capacity of today due to a variety of reasons certainly does not help.

What is the armed forces doing to support and encourage Indian manufacturing and develop capabilities and force the govt to support and fund all kinds of initiatives including private ones? Right now the politico military nexus keeps the imports going.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

These Imports are useless, We have the ability to make better, for that we need funds and space and one can start it but we are refusing that..

Its gives a impression of corruption only and from them which are so mush corruption prone..

Agree that we need our own production. But criticizing imports of today for the forces for overall lack of both capability and capacity of today due to a variety of reasons certainly does not help.

What is the armed forces doing to support and encourage Indian manufacturing and develop capabilities and force the govt to support and fund all kinds of initiatives including private ones? Right now the politico military nexus keeps the imports going.

 

[Yusuf]

These Imports are useless, We have the ability to make better, for that we need funds and space and one can start it but we are refusing that..

Its gives a impression of corruption only and from them which are so mush corruption prone..

It's not as simple as that. We lack many critical manufacturing technology and capability. We had to start to invest in such things 20-30 years back with adequate support. We would have seen a different picture today. Lack of political will (stemming of ops to take bribe from imports) is one of the reasons and add to it those in the armed forces who stand to gain as well. It cannot change over night but if te right policies are in place, india has the strength in its entrepreneurs to make it possible. A change can be triggered by te armed forces themselves to get the domestic production going.