More Mig-29's and Mirage 2000's???

[AJSINGH]

i was researching about Rafale and Mig29K , did anyone realize that Mig29K was operational well before Rafale M was even in service , i mean are we not comparing two different aircraft from different times , I think Mig35 and Rafale will be more suitable comparison .

 

[AJSINGH]

We really need to procure more than 126 MMRCA. We are already behind even if we upgrade the MIG-29 or Mirage, and we need more fighter jets. 200 MMRCA should be our minimum number.

126 is the initial number to be inducted , in 2017 when Mig21 bison will retire then there will be again shortage of fighters , however IAF is hopefull that those Mig21 will be replaced by LCAMkII . However if you must now there is an option of additional 60 aircraft mentioned in the MMRCA RFP.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

i was researching about Rafale and Mig29K , did anyone realize that Mig29K was operational well before Rafale M was even in service , i mean are we not comparing two different aircraft from different times , I think Mig35 and Rafale will be more suitable comparison .

Correct..

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[AJSINGH]

Correct..

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Weapons: Due to an integrated weapon selection panel, the MiG-29K can use a wide range of weapons, which includes no less than eight types of air-to-air missiles and 25 air-to-surface weapons. The aircraft features eight under wing, weapons hardpoints plus a centerline hardpoint which can likewise be used for carrying bombs. The two inboard pylons under each wing can be fitted with tandem bomb racks, which effectively increases the number of hardpoints to thirteen. The weapon selection system enables the pilot to fire more than one type of weapon per attack. The aircraft is fitted with a 30mm Gryazev/Shipunov GSh-301 (TKB-687/9A4071K) single barrel gun, with 150 AO-18 rounds.

In the air superiority role, the aircraft can be armed with the close-combat R-73E and the beyond-visual-range R-77RVV-AE air-to-air missiles. In the sea-denial role, the AS-20 and the Kh-31A anti-ship missiles can be carried. In the SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) role, the passive radar homing Kh-31P missile can be carried. Pinpoint strikes against ground targets are made possible by the Kh-29T TV-guided missile and the KAB-500KR TV-guided HE bomb or the KAB-500OD fuel-air bomb. The unguided weapons to be used include ordinary & cluster bombs of up to 500 kg (1102 lb) calibre (up to eleven FAB-500 HE bombs can be carried) and 240mm S-24B heavy unguided rockets (up to six).

Self Defence: The Russian-made IRCM (Infra-Red Counter Measures) system comprises two 16-round flare dispensers located on the sides of the engine nacelles, below the fins and fire downwards. The calibre of the flares has been increased to 50mm, which increases their burn time & heat signature and thus offering greater protection against heat-seeking missiles. The electronic warfare (EW) suite consists of the indigenous Tarang RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) and Elta's EL/L-8222 ECM pod. A pair of ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) transponders, in the wing strake, are built into the upper surfaces of the main wing.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Aviation/Aircraft/125-Mig-29k.html

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The aircraft features eight under wing, weapons hardpoints plus a centerline hardpoint which can likewise be used for carrying bombs. The two inboard pylons under each wing can be fitted with tandem bomb racks, which effectively increases the number of hardpoints to thirteen.

Very good but it doesn't change takeoff weight of MIG-29K, further like rafale it have to reduce weight during take off..

In the sea-denial role, the AS-20 and the Kh-31A anti-ship missiles can be carried. In the SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) role, the passive radar homing Kh-31P missile can be carried. Pinpoint strikes against ground targets are made possible by the Kh-29T TV-guided missile and the KAB-500KR TV-guided HE bomb or the KAB-500OD fuel-air bomb.

Good enough but again no pure stand off weapon system..

Self Defence: electronic warfare (EW) suite consists of the indigenous Tarang RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) and Elta's EL/L-8222 ECM pod.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Aviation/Aircraft/125-Mig-29k.html

It would have been better if ECM is internal..


Ps.Though despite these drawbacks MIG-29K is a excellent Naval fighter and formidable opponent in A2A mode..

 

[sunnyv]

It would have been better if ECM is internal..

If possible can you elaborate further , what advantage an ECM if inside offers over external one ( same performance and Bandwidth of Jammer's in each case) .
As far as Rafale is concerned , conformal antennae of Spectra are also outside distributed on surface + around fuselage

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If possible can you elaborate further , what advantage an ECM if inside offers over external one ( same performance and Bandwidth of Jammer's in each case) .
As far as Rafale is concerned , conformal antennae of Spectra are also outside distributed on surface + around fuselage

Their will be no change in performance but when it comes externally it resulted into reduction of weapon load, for example in A2A mode you have to deduct one hard point for ECM pod, In A2G role (SURGICAL operation ) you need to have Laser Pod with ECM pod out of 8 hardpoints their will be only Six able to carry weapon loads..

 

[sunnyv]

But is it worth - 2 Rafale for price of 3 Mig29

How much gain we get by adding one hard-point against a , work-load + investment of adding that many more processors and modular architecture to keep the Digital Threat library updated. Heating issues for those modules,processors etc

In case of up-gradation you simply replace the pod on external wing ,
but in case of internal what if navy wants to change operating freq bandwidth , Power with every new Pulse Repetition freq or wave train sequence that your sniffing device gives you when you come to know radar signature of Enemy
Each time you have to change the antennae , Buses and Software source codes/ API for those additional operation and processing , that itself requires grounding of Aircraft and many hours of work of Technicians .
I agree that every system has tolerance and just by hooking up a laptop you can upgrade the library/codes for operation . But what if you want to just double the power to Jam the opponent

 

[Kunal Biswas]

How much gain we get by adding one hard-point against a , work-load + investment of adding that many more processors and modular architecture to keep the Digital Threat library updated. Heating issues for those modules,processors etc

Its not only a hardpoint but many other features, Which i have posted in my previous posts
besides it about weapon loads which matters, In A2A having an extra R-73/77 is lifesaver..

but in case of internal, Power with every new Pulse Repetition freq or wave train sequence that your sniffing device gives you when you come to know radar signature of Enemy
Each time you have to change the antennae , Buses and Software source codes/ API for those additional operation and processing , that itself requires grounding of Aircraft and many hours of work of Technicians. I agree that every system has tolerance and just by hooking up a laptop you can upgrade the library/codes for operation . But what if you want to just double the power to Jam the opponent

Instrumental in the EW Spectra's performance is a threat library that can be defined, integrated and updated on short notice by users in their own country, allowing agile and continuous enhancement of the aircraft's protection as operations unfold. Being of modular design, the system is controlled by a dedicated computer with three processors....

Besides these dismounting Rafale EW is similar to Mig-29k`s EW, Rafale use a separate hatch underneath or between the Engines which can be open and EW suite can be dismounted for repairs or change in short notice..

a combat aircraft doesn't need to be upgraded or modified on a daily base, it is designed to fulfill its mission at least for some years so it would be absolutely nonessential to waste external hardpoints for such basic capacities btw if you only need more data storage capacity for a library or more computing power, you'll just have to replace some basic electronics components..

 

[vishwaprasad]

Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Hello friends,

I was just thinking that why don't India go for second hand Mirage 2000's in UAE and Qatar? If I am not mistaken Qatari Mirages (some 12 fighters I think) were on offer for us. It would have been a great addition to our M2K fleet as they are already dash 5 versions. Besides UAE is also trying to replace its Mirages with Rafales. UAE versions are dash 9 standard and are the best M2Ks avail today. There are 63 M2K's avail with them.

Now come to MIG-29 Fulcrums. I think Malaysia is operating some MIG-29 N (naval version?) and is looking for foreign buyers as they do not wish to operate them anymore. In my opinion if India try to get these Mirages and Fulcrums it will be a great stop gap measure till Rafales start arriving in next 2-3 years.

We are already having 100+ MIG-27's and some 48 M2K (being upgraded to dash 5) which is a lethal ground attack component of IAF. Imagine if we could get those 75 M2K's (both from Qatar and UAE) we will have a strong 123 M2K fleet for just ground attack along with 100+ MIG-27's. We will have one of the most dangerous ground attack fleet in asia to pound the enemy lines. Malaysian Fulcrums can be used by Navy as a further addition in MIG-29 K's or they can even be used by IAF. Our MIG-29's are anyway famous for providing great escorts to our M2Ks (kargil war )

This way we get good 4th generation fighters as a stop gap measure which will help to boost numbers and capacity in IAF dwindling fleet till all the Flankers are in service and Rafales start arriving in IAF. What you all think?

Regards,

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

second hand maal does not have much life. PAF got lots of second M2k, we got Su30 that time.

 

[Blackwater]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Becoz we are not Pakistan who beg or buys second hand maal

 

[vishwaprasad]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

second hand maal does not have much life. PAF got lots of second M2k, we got Su30 that time.

Pakistan does not have M2K's. They have Mirage-III and Mirage-V. Besides these 2nd hand M2K are not that much older. UAE M2Ks are just a decade old and they are well maintained too.

 

[Zebra]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Pakistan does not have M2K's. They have Mirage-III and Mirage-V. Besides these 2nd hand M2K are not that much older. UAE M2Ks are just a decade old and they are well maintained too.

What is the price of it?

 

[Blackwater]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

What is the price of it?

In the name of Islam its free

 

[Zebra]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

In the name of Islam its free

I asked about UAE's aircrafts dude.

These one:

UAE M2Ks are just a decade old and they are well maintained too.

BTW, they are not that cheap.

 

[Blackwater]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

I asked about UAE's aircrafts dude.

These one:

BTW, they are not that cheap.

i also told you about UAE aircraft. if country like pak wants them ,UAE can give free in the name of islam

 

[Zebra]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

i also told you about UAE aircraft. if country like pak wants them ,UAE can give free in the name of islam

I do not think so.

At-least, so far they are not in PAF.

It is not possible in future too.

 

[sob]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

The Jet deal is nowhere close to being sealed and the first jet does not look to be flying in our skies before 2015-16 ( that may also look very optimistic).

At the same time we are loosing aircraft to crashes, attrition and quite a few are being phased out. Our force levels are going to dip very low.

I would not mind getting the M2Ks from UAE, they are the latest block aircraft and will dovetail in very well with our fleet.

 

[Zebra]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Our force levels are going to dip very low.

What ever lethal weapon our great government did ordered as of yet or ordering now or will order in future, the delivery of nearly all of them will be not before mid 2017. That means the next coming government have to stay without all those goodies.

The last I saw a report about M777 fire control radar (order) with the delivery not before 2017. Not sure for which army it was, US or Indian.

In other word we have to stay as it is till mid 2017.