More Mig-29's and Mirage 2000's???

Kunal Biswas

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It is strange why the question being asked abt 'MORE MIR & MIGS', Indian Air Force is cleaver enough to purchase long term aircrafts +4.5gen, If anyone noticed IAF is purchasing more SU-30MKIs, 230+50-2 = 278 MKIs as per latest reports, till MRCA winner is declared..

Beside MIG-29 & MIR-2000 are excellent aircrafts but their days will be over in next few years!

MIR-2005
1> Second hand MIR-2005 will offer same payloads as MIR-2000..
2> Air-worthy till next 5 years!
3> BVR is just abt 60km+, Using old R550 Magics..........

MIG-29s
Present IAF MIG-29s are extensively updated with new radars and Engines, And MIG-29 is classified as Air superiority fighter IN IAF..

1> Its old and its days are numbered against 4.5 gen Aircrafts..
2> It has no A2G capability in IAF service..
3> Buying old and new is waste of Money...


Current upgrades of the Mig-29 to MIg 29 SMT++ and Mirage 2000's upgraded to 5 standards. are short term solutions until the MMRCA comes online in good numbers.And i hope I don't see India wanting to spend alot to upgrade the winner of the MMRCA.
 
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gogbot

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Mig-29 still has life left in it sir

Don't forget , the IN has just purchased over 40 Mig-29K's



 

Kunal Biswas

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Mig-29 still has life left in it sir

Don't forget , the IN has just purchased over 40 Mig-29K's
During those days their were only two fighters available to IN, One Is Rafale and another is MIG-29K, But IN chose Mig-29 Coz its cheap and Indian pilots are used to it, but in comparison to western carrier fighters like Rafale it clearly lacks behind. A dedicated Mig 35K with more payload, range could be a better match, but the next Russian naval fighter will be a version of Pak Fa.



Rafale Cockpit
 
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AJSINGH

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During those days their were only two fighters available to IN, One Is Rafale and another is MIG-29K, But IN chose Mig-29 Coz its cheap and Indian pilots are used to it, but in comparison to western carrier fighters like Rafale it clearly lacks behind. A dedicated Mig 35K with more payload, range could be a better match, but the next Russian naval fighter will be a version of Pak Fa.
okay so you are saying that Rafale is superior to Mig29K
so lets compare the two aircraft.
T/W ratio of Mig29K-1.1
T/W ratio of Rafale-1.13 ,nobady wins

Rate of Climb of Mig29K-330m/s
Rate fo climb of Rafale-304m/s (Mig 29K)

Max speed of Mig29K-Mach2+ ( and it has been tested to go faster)
Max speed of Rafale-Mach 2 and not faster ( Mig29K wins )

Hard Points for Mig29K- 8 with 5500kg payload
Hard points for Rafale -13 with 9000kg payload ( so here rafale wins but there is a catch , max payload of rafale will only be possible when there is steam catapult launch method ,otherwise it comes down to 6000kg ,slightly higher but no tactical gain )

about radar , not enough information in public domain to come to conclusion which radar is better ,however since Zhuk-A is already developed ( ASEA radar and the next upgraded will come soon into testing and active deployment ) and thales RBE2 AA is in development , so we can conclude that Zhuk A is better

so at the end comes the price of both the aircraft Mig29K is 46.25 million including spares and support whereas RafaleM ( the carrier version ) is 70million flyaway cost with no spares and support

and now the conclusion , rafale wins only in certain parameters where Mig29K is superior in most of the parameters plus the price too.
 

AJSINGH

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It is strange why the question being asked abt 'MORE MIR & MIGS', Indian Air Force is cleaver enough to purchase long term aircrafts +4.5gen, If anyone noticed IAF is purchasing more SU-30MKIs, 230+50-2 = 278 MKIs as per latest reports, till MRCA winner is declared..

Beside MIG-29 & MIR-2000 are excellent aircrafts but their days will be over in next few years!


MIG-29s
Present IAF MIG-29s are extensively updated with new radars and Engines, And MIG-29 is classified as Air superiority fighter IN IAF..

1> Its old and its days are numbered against 4.5 gen Aircrafts..
2> It has no A2G capability in IAF service..
3> Buying old and new is waste of Money...


Current upgrades of the Mig-29 to MIg 29 SMT++ and Mirage 2000's upgraded to 5 standards. are short term solutions until the MMRCA comes online in good numbers.And i hope I don't see India wanting to spend alot to upgrade the winner of the MMRCA.
if we upgrade Mig29SMT radar to Zhuk A ,then radar wise it will be on par with 4.5 gen aircraft , as of now it is 4th gen aircraft
 

Kunal Biswas

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okay so you are saying that Rafale is superior to Mig29K
so lets compare the two aircraft.

Max speed of Mig29K-Mach2+ ( and it has been tested to go faster)
Max speed of Rafale-Mach 2 and not faster ( Mig29K wins )
Wong info!

MIG-29K> 2,200 km/h, 1,370 mph
Rafale> 2,390 km/h, 1,290 knots

the Range..
Rafale> 3,700+ km (2,000+ nmi)
MIG-29K> 2,000 km (1,240 mi)



Hard Points for Mig29K- 8 with 5500kg payload
Hard points for Rafale -13 with 9000kg payload ( so here rafale wins but there is a catch , max payload of rafale will only be possible when there is steam catapult launch method ,otherwise it comes down to 6000kg ,slightly higher but no tactical gain )
There is nothing like reducing to 6000kgs, Its Regular payload is 9500kg which included triple pylons which occupies only one station, in several simulations (Red Flag, or recently in the UAE) it performs exellent in SEAD missions. The Mig lacks a long range cruise-, or stand off missile, like the Kh 59 that the MKI has, the Rafale instand has the Scalp, that even with reduced range for India, will be superior than anything the Mig can offer.

about radar , not enough information in public domain to come to conclusion which radar is better ,however since Zhuk-A is already developed ( ASEA radar and the next upgraded will come soon into testing and active deployment ) and thales RBE2 AA is in development , so we can conclude that Zhuk A is better
Presently or in past none of the Aircrafts were armed with AESA, But PESA now we compare both PESA radars..

MIG-29K> The Zhuk-ME is an advanced variant of the original N010 Zhuk radar introducing advanced air to surface functions like mapping and terrain following. The radar forms part of the MiG-29K specific equipment. The radar features improved signal processing and has a detection range of up to 120 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target for the export variant, and up to 10 targets tracked and up to 4 attacked at once in air to air mode.[19] The tracking range is 0.83 - 0.85 of the detection range. In air to surface mode the radar can detect a tank from up to 25 km away and a bridge from 120 km away, a naval destroyer could be detected up to 300 km away and up to two surface targets can be tracked at once.

Rafale M> RBE2 (Radar à Bayalage electronique deux plans) stands for two-dimensionally, electronically-scanned antenna. For air-to-surface attack, this LPI (low probability of Intercept)radar has terrain-following, terrainavoidance and treath-avoidance modes, plus high-resolution mapping, navigation updating, target aiming, search and tracking of moving or fixed targets and ranging.
When Rafale is used as an interceptor, RBE2 will automatically select high, medium or low puls repetition frequencies for best reception. Search range against a typical target is some 100km (54nm), even in look-down mode and targets are automatically interrogated for IFF. A multimode radar system, the Thales (previously Thomson-CSF) "Radar a Balayage Electronique 2 (RBE2)". It uses a phased array (electronically steered) antenna, has a range of up to 100 kilometers (60 miles), and is advertised as the first "look-down / shoot-down" airborne multimode phased-array radar developed in Europe. The RBE2 can track up to 40 targets and engage up to eight of them at once with the MICA EM, performing automatic "identification friend or foe (IFF)" interrogation when in dogfight mode. It also supports air-to-surface attack for both ground and naval targets, as well as navigation and automatic terrain following modes, and can operate in intense jamming environments. Functions such as terrain following can be used while tracking targets elsewhere. A "synthetic aperture radar (SAR)" mode is also being developed to provide a radar imaging capability for targeting and reconnaissance.

AESA>
Rafale>
The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need, While "This milestone marks the latest step toward qualifying the RBE2 AESA radars this year in readiness for delivery of the first two units to Dassault Aviation during the first quarter of 2010,"

MIG-29K>
Zhuk-A (Export Designation Zhuk-AE) The latest incarnation of the Zhuk radar family featuring an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA). The radar uses 680 4 channel transceiver modules with a power output of 5 watts per channel.

^ NO conformation of operational use..


so at the end comes the price of both the aircraft Mig29K is 46.25 million including spares and support whereas RafaleM ( the carrier version ) is 70million flyaway cost with no spares and support and now the conclusion
I don't remember we have any kind of spare-parts problem with Dassult MIR-2000 in IAF..

Besides what most important thing Mig lack is a pure stand off weapons, Regarding Fire & Forget tech Westerns are light years ahead..

MIG-29K>
* Kh-25ML semi-active laser guidance with tandem warhead that can penetrate 1 metre (39 in) of concrete, 10 km,
* Kh-29T TV-guided air-to-surface missile, 12 km,
* Kh-35U long-range active radar air-to-surface missile, 130 km,

Rafale>
1> Storm Shadow is an air-launched cruise missile, over 250 km, Inertial, GPS and TERPROM. Terminal guidance using imaging infrared..
2> AASM 15km (very low altitude launch), more than 60km (high altitude launch), Hybrid GPS/INS
3> Joint Direct Attack Munition..
4> MBDA Apache..
 

Kunal Biswas

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if we upgrade Mig29SMT radar to Zhuk A ,then radar wise it will be on par with 4.5 gen aircraft , as of now it is 4th gen aircraft
Yes its Air Superiority 4th Gen fighter..
But their will no upgrades for IAF Mig-29s, currently IAF Mig-29 is armed with Zhuk-ME..
Economically it wont be good for IAF..
 
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mayfair

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Well Kunal, I am no defense expert but it seems to depend a lot on which sources you're looking at, other resources tell a different story about Dassault Rafale

Dimensions: Height 5.3 m, Length 15.3 m, Wingspan 10.9 m

Weights: Max Weight 21,000 kg (46,296 lb), Min Weight 10,000 kg (22,046 lb), Payload 8,000 kg (17,637 lb), Maximum External Capacity
9,500kg

Engine/s Performance: Thrust 34,000 lb (15,422 kg)

Performance: Endurance 3 hours, Max Range 1,900 km (1,026 nm), Top Speed 598 mps (Mach 1.80) some sources say over 1.80/750kt

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/rafale/specs.html

http://www.deagel.com/Strike-and-Fighter-Aircraft/Rafale-M_a000479001.aspx

See that's the problem ..many sources much info....
 

Kunal Biswas

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Well Kunal, I am no defense expert but it seems to depend a lot on which sources you're looking at, other resources tell a different story about Dassault Rafale

Dimensions: Height 5.3 m, Length 15.3 m, Wingspan 10.9 m

Weights: Max Weight 21,000 kg (46,296 lb), Min Weight 10,000 kg (22,046 lb), Payload 8,000 kg (17,637 lb), Maximum External Capacity
9,500kg

Engine/s Performance: Thrust 34,000 lb (15,422 kg)

Performance: Endurance 3 hours, Max Range 1,900 km (1,026 nm), Top Speed 598 mps (Mach 1.80) some sources say over 1.80/750kt

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/rafale/specs.html

http://www.deagel.com/Strike-and-Fighter-Aircraft/Rafale-M_a000479001.aspx

See that's the problem ..many sources much info....

The best thing is to go to Dassualt site and find out........
Rest is available on wiki..

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/aircraft-characteristics.html?L=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
 

ppgj

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It is strange why the question being asked abt 'MORE MIR & MIGS', Indian Air Force is cleaver enough to purchase long term aircrafts +4.5gen, If anyone noticed IAF is purchasing more SU-30MKIs, 230+50-2 = 278 MKIs as per latest reports, till MRCA winner is declared..
:)

Beside MIG-29 & MIR-2000 are excellent aircrafts but their days will be over in next few years!
no sir. with upgrades coming up, they are looking at a 15+ years of additional service. considering Mig 21's are still around after 40+ years, i don't think IAF is letting go these birds easily. they will extract every ounce from these. Mig 29's life is going to go up by 15 years from 25 years while Mirage will go similarly.

some links -

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...n-Rs-10000-cr-project/articleshow/5604361.cms

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/20080308_mig_29.html

also if i may add, IAF is known for good maintainence while they flog them too a lot. reasonable to expect the birds are still in good shape. case in point - russian mig 29's showed up cracks due to non maintainence while IAF lot stood fine. =xD

MIR-2005
1> Second hand MIR-2005 will offer same payloads as MIR-2000..
agree but will have better armaments.

2> Air-worthy till next 5 years!
no sir additional 15 - 20 years. infact at some point in the recent past india was negotiating with Qatari AF for 11 or 12 of these birds.

3> BVR is just abt 60km+, Using old R550 Magics..........
RDY 2 radar will allow them shoot Mica missiles which are superior but have the same range. india is procuring these with the upgrade. reason why it costs a bomb!!

MIG-29s
Present IAF MIG-29s are extensively updated with new radars and Engines, And MIG-29 is classified as Air superiority fighter IN IAF..
sir, before the upgrade yes. the N109 radar (hope i am right) was only optimised for A2A role and hence they were used in those and escort missions. but that will change with Zhuk ME radar which will turn it into multi role fighter. it will be able to do A2G missions too.

1> Its old and its days are numbered against 4.5 gen Aircrafts..
considering our adversaries have even worse ones, they will surely have an upper hand. however i agree they fall short wrt more advanced ones you mentioned.

2> It has no A2G capability in IAF service..
answered above.

3> Buying old and new is waste of Money...
fact that these birds still have lot of life means, upgrade is good option. also IAF can utilise the overhaul facilities, which they have built up, to optimum.

Current upgrades of the Mig-29 to MIg 29 SMT++ and Mirage 2000's upgraded to 5 standards. are short term solutions until the MMRCA comes online in good numbers.And i hope I don't see India wanting to spend alot to upgrade the winner of the MMRCA.
sir, i beg to differ. i look at them as more medium term. point is even with these upgrades, MMRCA, LCA all adding up - IAF squadron strength will still remain low due to Mig 27/Mig 21 or even Jaguar retirement in 5-10 years.
 

Agantrope

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Kunal,

I want make it clear that the duty of MiG-29 is to escort the Jaguar and the Mirages for ground attack. So they havent add any A2G mode in MiG-29s, so simple
 

Kunal Biswas

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Kunal,

I want make it clear that the duty of MiG-29 is to escort the Jaguar and the Mirages for ground attack. So they havent add any A2G mode in MiG-29s, so simple
@Agantrope,
I have mentioned abt it in my previous post..

MIG-29s
Present IAF MIG-29s are extensively updated with new radars and Engines, And MIG-29 is classified as Air superiority fighter IN IAF..
....................
 
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Kunal Biswas

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no sir. with upgrades coming up, they are looking at a 15+ years of additional service. considering Mig 21's are still around after 40+ years, i don't think IAF is letting go these birds easily. they will extract every ounce from these. Mig 29's life is going to go up by 15 years from 25 years while Mirage will go similarly.
"The scope of Mirage upgrade will be much larger than the MiG-29 one...it will be more high-end. It will cost half of the fighter's worth. After the upgrade, the Mirages will serve us for another 15-20 years,'' said another officer.
I have mentioned earlier that reason of MIG-21/29 & MIR Updates are short term solutions until the MMRCA comes online in good numbers, Yeah right!!
But 15-20 years may be in IAF service but in globally it will be outdated..

agree but will have better armaments.
As far my knowledge it have same nine hard-points for external stores (five under its belly, four under its wings). These hard-points can be used to attach weapons, pods, launchers, jettisonable external tanks or pylons, or for carrying various combination of external stores, up to 6.3 metric tons, including 'smart' weapons for a wide variety of operational requirements..

no sir additional 15 - 20 years. infact at some point in the recent past india was negotiating with Qatari AF for 11 or 12 of these birds.
Isn't that deal was dropped by IAF, In favor of updating existing Mir-2000s?

RDY 2 radar will allow them shoot Mica missiles which are superior but have the same range. india is procuring these with the upgrade. reason why it costs a bomb!!
Yes true, but range of 60km is not upto the task..
Btw Superior in what terms?

sir, before the upgrade yes. the N109 radar (hope i am right) was only optimized for A2A role and hence they were used in those and escort missions. but that will change with Zhuk ME radar which will turn it into multi role fighter. it will be able to do A2G missions too.
During N109 era it was Air-superiority fighter and still with Zhuk ME it Air-Superiority Fighter..
Note during Kargil war IAF chose MIR-2000 for precision strike not MIG-29, Coz Mig-29 is an agile fighter with twin engine on hands and superior BVRs and R-73s..

sir, i beg to differ. i look at them as more medium term. point is even with these upgrades, MMRCA, LCA all adding up - IAF squadron strength will still remain low due to Mig 27/Mig 21 or even Jaguar retirement in 5-10 years.
@ppgj,
Here some info u can use..

For IAF, which has been acquiring combat aircraft s in small no i past ths procurement will finally be a major step towards settling in with a balance force. in past, except for large no of mig-21a induced, the remaining acquisitions have been confined to around 50-70 no from different source , such as M-2000, MIG-29, MIG-21,MIG-27s, due to non - availability of indeginious built platforms and the need to import spares, the logistic challenge of IAF is enormous. it has been visionary approach of the leadership looking ahead to the emerging scenario 20 years from now, which is seeking optimum solutions to streamline the IAF force levels into a balanced mix. It is with this objective that IAF planned for future, when its legacy platforms are discarded, to eventually build its combat aircraft inventory around a mix of three air-fleets:



1- Heavy SU-30MKIS and PAK FA , for air dominance and long range strategics role.

2- Medium weight 350+ MRCA. in addition to above role, will provide flexible response for counter air and precision strikes on interdiction and battlefield support targets.

3- Light weighted LCAs with quick reaction for airdefence and battle field support targets....



FORCE vol4, no7, MARCH 2007, p-16 (Guest column) Air Marshal Ajit Bhavnani ( retd )

"THE IAF NEEDS A MASSIVE ACQUISITION PROGRAM FOR ACQUISITION NOT MERELY 126 MRCAs BUT AROUND 350+ FIGHTERS IN NEXT 15YEARS. THE IAF STRIKE ELEMENT HAS ALREADY SHRUNK TO 34 SQUADRONS AND WOULD FURTHER TO BELOW 30 SQUADRONS IN NEXT 5 YEARS BEFORE THE FIRST OF NEW ACQUISITIONS FLY WITH IAF COLORS IN 2012."

Interview of GP Captain T.P Srivastava ( retd), Force Defense Magazine, P-40..

India May Buy More Than 126 Fighter Jets, Boeing Says (Update1)

Feb. 1 (Bloomberg) -- India may order "many more" than the 126 fighter jets it has sought bids for as it upgrade its armed forces, according to Boeing Co.
"I think 126 could be an initial number and there could be many more airplanes than that," Joe Song, vice president of the company's defense business, said in an interview in Singapore today. "They see the need to update an ageing fleet."
Boeing, the second-largest U.S. defense contractor, is competing for the order, which may be worth as much as $11 billion, with companies including Lockheed Martin Corp., and Dassault Aviation SA. The companies submitted bids in April 2008 to supply the jets as the Indian air force modernizes its predominantly Russian-made fleet.
India may decide on the order by March 2011 as field trials of the planes began in 2009, Defense Minister A.K. Antony has said. Sitanshu Kar, a ministry spokesman, today said he couldn't offer any immediate comment on buying more jets.
The plan to buy 126 jets is the biggest fighter-plane order in 15 years worldwide, Chicago-based Boeing has said. Boeing's F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet is competing with Dassault's Rafale, Lockheed's F-16, Russia's MiG-35, Saab AB's Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon from a joint venture of Airbus SAS, BAE Systems Plc and Italy's Finmeccanica SpA.


--With assistance from Vipin Nair in Mumbai. Editors: Anand Krishnamoorthy, Neil Denslow

To contact the reporters on this story: Kyunghee Park at +852-2977-6611 or [email protected]; Liza Lin in Singapore at +65-6212-1329 or [email protected]


To contact the editor responsible for this story: Neil Denslow at +852-2977-6639 or [email protected]
 
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AJSINGH

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okay so you are saying that Rafale is superior to Mig29K
so lets compare the two aircraft.


Wong info!

MIG-29K> 2,200 km/h, 1,370 mph
Rafale> 2,390 km/h, 1,290 knots

the Range..
Rafale> 3,700+ km (2,000+ nmi)
MIG-29K> 2,000 km (1,240 mi)





There is nothing like reducing to 6000kgs, Its Regular payload is 9500kg which included triple pylons which occupies only one station, in several simulations (Red Flag, or recently in the UAE) it performs exellent in SEAD missions. The Mig lacks a long range cruise-, or stand off missile, like the Kh 59 that the MKI has, the Rafale instand has the Scalp, that even with reduced range for India, will be superior than anything the Mig can offer.



Presently or in past none of the Aircrafts were armed with AESA, But PESA now we compare both PESA radars..

MIG-29K> The Zhuk-ME is an advanced variant of the original N010 Zhuk radar introducing advanced air to surface functions like mapping and terrain following. The radar forms part of the MiG-29K specific equipment. The radar features improved signal processing and has a detection range of up to 120 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target for the export variant, and up to 10 targets tracked and up to 4 attacked at once in air to air mode.[19] The tracking range is 0.83 - 0.85 of the detection range. In air to surface mode the radar can detect a tank from up to 25 km away and a bridge from 120 km away, a naval destroyer could be detected up to 300 km away and up to two surface targets can be tracked at once.

Rafale M> RBE2 (Radar à Bayalage electronique deux plans) stands for two-dimensionally, electronically-scanned antenna. For air-to-surface attack, this LPI (low probability of Intercept)radar has terrain-following, terrainavoidance and treath-avoidance modes, plus high-resolution mapping, navigation updating, target aiming, search and tracking of moving or fixed targets and ranging.
When Rafale is used as an interceptor, RBE2 will automatically select high, medium or low puls repetition frequencies for best reception. Search range against a typical target is some 100km (54nm), even in look-down mode and targets are automatically interrogated for IFF. A multimode radar system, the Thales (previously Thomson-CSF) "Radar a Balayage Electronique 2 (RBE2)". It uses a phased array (electronically steered) antenna, has a range of up to 100 kilometers (60 miles), and is advertised as the first "look-down / shoot-down" airborne multimode phased-array radar developed in Europe. The RBE2 can track up to 40 targets and engage up to eight of them at once with the MICA EM, performing automatic "identification friend or foe (IFF)" interrogation when in dogfight mode. It also supports air-to-surface attack for both ground and naval targets, as well as navigation and automatic terrain following modes, and can operate in intense jamming environments. Functions such as terrain following can be used while tracking targets elsewhere. A "synthetic aperture radar (SAR)" mode is also being developed to provide a radar imaging capability for targeting and reconnaissance.

AESA>
Rafale>
The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need, While "This milestone marks the latest step toward qualifying the RBE2 AESA radars this year in readiness for delivery of the first two units to Dassault Aviation during the first quarter of 2010,"

MIG-29K>
Zhuk-A (Export Designation Zhuk-AE) The latest incarnation of the Zhuk radar family featuring an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA). The radar uses 680 4 channel transceiver modules with a power output of 5 watts per channel.

^ NO conformation of operational use..




I don't remember we have any kind of spare-parts problem with Dassult MIR-2000 in IAF..

Besides what most important thing Mig lack is a pure stand off weapons, Regarding Fire & Forget tech Westerns are light years ahead..

MIG-29K>
* Kh-25ML semi-active laser guidance with tandem warhead that can penetrate 1 metre (39 in) of concrete, 10 km,
* Kh-29T TV-guided air-to-surface missile, 12 km,
* Kh-35U long-range active radar air-to-surface missile, 130 km,

Rafale>
1> Storm Shadow is an air-launched cruise missile, over 250 km, Inertial, GPS and TERPROM. Terminal guidance using imaging infrared..
2> AASM 15km (very low altitude launch), more than 60km (high altitude launch), Hybrid GPS/INS
3> Joint Direct Attack Munition..
4> MBDA Apache..
look i did not make up the facts in my previous post , it wall all from wikipedia , thrust to weight ratio and in rate of climb ,Mig29K is better. as for weapons i am buying your argument as of now but i am doing my own research . ( btw JDAM needs GPS which IAF or IN does not have )
plus what i have told about payload is true , you cant fly full payload rafale from ski jump ,it needs dedicated steam catapult ,otherwise F-18SH would have made better sense. Both Rafale and Sh with full payload will be too heavy to launch without catapult . Plus the final issue is price. Mig29K is very affordable and justify its price. you cant have all the technology you want for just 46.5 million .For better weapons and better capability we have to shell out the more money which Fin Ministry does not want to do
Plus IN is not crazy enough to buy 45 Mig29k for no reason
 

Kunal Biswas

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the final issue is price. Mig29K is very affordable and justify its price. you cant have all the technology you want for just 46.5 million .For better weapons and better capability we have to shell out the more money which Fin Ministry does not want to do
Plus IN is not crazy enough to buy 45 Mig29k for no reason
Exactly, it was the Price tag as i mentioned before..

IN chose Mig-29 Coz its cheap
thrust to weight ratio and in rate of climb ,Mig29K is better
Yes, But in payload, and A2G role Rafale M is undoubtedly advance fighter..
 
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mayfair

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Kunal, the true specs of Rafale as per Dassault aviation

Dimensions:
Span"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦. 10,80 m (35.4 ft)
Wing area"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦ 45,70 m² (492 sq ft)
Length"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦.. 15,27 m (33.8 ft)
Height"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦ 5,34 m (17,4 ft)

Weight:
Empty"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦ ....10-ton class
Max"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦ 24,500 kg (54,000 lb)
Fuel (internal)"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦. 4,700 kg (10,300 lb)
Fuel (external)"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦ 7,500 kg (16,500 lb)
Max external capability"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦. 9,500 kg (20,950 lb)

External store stations:
Total"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦..."¦ 14
Heavy stores & fuel "wet" stations"¦"¦"¦"¦"¦... 5

Load factors ......................................................+9g/-3.2g
Max speed .........................................................M 1.8+/750 kts
Approach speed.................................................120 knots
Landing distance................................................450 m (1,475 ft)
Max climb rate ...................................................Over 1,000 ft/sec
Operational ceiling..............................................55,000 ft
Radius of action (penetration mission) ..............More than 1,000 nautical miles
Combat air patrol loiter time ................................Over 3 hours

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/aircraft-characteristics.html?L=1
 

Kunal Biswas

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Kunal, the true specs of Rafale as per Dassault aviation


Max speed .........................................................M 1.8+/750 kts
Radius of action (penetration mission) ..............More than 1,000 nautical miles

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/aircraft-characteristics.html?L=1
Mayfair,
You r right regarding Rafale F2 specification and it does have low speed Mach 1.8 where Mig-29k have +2..

As per Official website of both Aircrafts..
MIG-29K> 2,200 km/h, 1,370 mph
Rafale> 1800km/h, 750 kts

But th Dassualt official web page gives the correct info about Rafale F1 &F2 and not updated since
The New Rafales F3, 2008-10 onwards have SNECMA M 88-3 which gives more range and speed...

max speed 2,130 KPH 1,325 MPH / 1,150 KT
Vitesse maximale : 2,390 km/h (1 290 noeuds)

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/marine/decouverte/equipements/aeronefs/rafale_m
http://www.vectorsite.net/avrafa.html
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3615107&c=EUR&s=TOP


Their is very little info on Rafale F3..
But its proved that Rafale F2 had low speed compare to MIG-29K..
 
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ppgj

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I have mentioned earlier that reason of MIG-21/29 & MIR Updates are short term solutions until the MMRCA comes online in good numbers, Yeah right!!
even after MMRCA in good numbers, the squadron strength will still be a worry. 15 - 20 years of these birds will give a relief to IAF in terms of deterrance.

But 15-20 years may be in IAF service but in globally it will be outdated..
may be but in the indian context, with our next door adversaries - they will be current.

As far my knowledge it have same nine hard-points for external stores (five under its belly, four under its wings). These hard-points can be used to attach weapons, pods, launchers, jettisonable external tanks or pylons, or for carrying various combination of external stores, up to 6.3 metric tons, including 'smart' weapons for a wide variety of operational requirements..
agree sir.

Isn't that deal was dropped by IAF, In favor of updating existing Mir-2000s?
our upgrades was always on the cards. the qatari option was in addition to that. even UAE was also an option. but nothing is clear.

Yes true, but range of 60km is not upto the task..
MICA replaced matra magics which were 60's design. if i am right R550 never had ranges close to 60+ kms MICA offers. MICA will make room for METEOR in the coming days. also one must not forget by the time upgrades happen our own ASTRA =xD will kick in giving an additional option. also, may be Pythons may be integrated but i am not sure on this.

Btw Superior in what terms?
may be this helps - http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/ref/scripts/EN_MICA_124.html

During N109 era it was Air-superiority fighter and still with Zhuk ME it Air-Superiority Fighter..
with Zhuk ME, they will be multi role sir. the radar will be similar to RDY 2 (france), EL 2032 (israel) and our own Hybrid MMR on the LCA, all are muti mode pulse doppler radars.

Note during Kargil war IAF chose MIR-2000 for precision strike not MIG-29, Coz Mig-29 is an agile fighter with twin engine on hands and superior BVRs and R-73s..
during that time, only Mirages had ATLIS laser designator pod and hence only they could fire the laser PGM's like the paveways. no other indian aircrafts had these pods. only post kargil, IAF has sort of made it mandatory that all frontline aircrafts will have Laser designators Litening (israel). hence during kargil Mig 29's were used in escort missions.

a link worthy of read -

The Mirage 2000 were supplied with Thomson-CSF Laser Designator Pod, known as 'ATLIS' which was capable of delivery of Matra 1000 kg LGBs, which were purpose built for destruction of reinforced targets. These weapons were highly capable but were very expensive. It was decided to augment their capability by adding the 1000 lb bomb coupled with Paveway II laser-guided bomb kit. The IAF had ordered a number of these, but they had been supplied with an incorrect part. Because of the nuclear test performed by India, they were on the embargo list and were unable to get the correct parts sent as replacements. Consequently IAF technicians had to remanufacture this part in order to make the Paveway serviceable for use on the Mirage.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/PCamp.html

@ppgj,
Here some info u can use..
thank you.
 

Kunal Biswas

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MICA replaced matra magics which were 60's design. if i am right R550 never had ranges close to 60+ kms MICA offers. MICA will make room for METEOR in the coming days. also one must not forget by the time upgrades happen our own ASTRA =xD will kick in giving an additional option. also, may be Pythons may be integrated but i am not sure on this.
Very Interesting, I guess than MICA is superior to R-73 in IAF service..
And Meteor for Mirage-2000 upgrade its a perfect fit but for all front-line fighter R77M1 is superior...
Therefore MKIs can also be armed with MICAs and R-77M1..
Very good Info!..


during that time, only Mirages had ATLIS laser designator pod and hence only they could fire the laser PGM's like the paveways. no other indian aircrafts had these pods. only post kargil, IAF has sort of made it mandatory that all frontline aircrafts will have Laser designators Litening (israel). hence during kargil Mig 29's were used in escort missions.
True, but IAF Mig-29 are for Air-superiority tasks..
Though in times of need they may carry surgical strikes.
our next door adversaries - they will be current.
Hopefully..
 
Last edited:

StealthSniper

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We really need to procure more than 126 MMRCA. We are already behind even if we upgrade the MIG-29 or Mirage, and we need more fighter jets. 200 MMRCA should be our minimum number.
 

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