Modi Is Dragging India Into A US-China Conflict

Razor

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If India wants to be geopolitically relevant, it would need a combination of cards. Resources, economy, military, advantageous geography, strong and smart leadership/governement system etc.

We already have two enemies and several not-so-friendly entities in the neighbourhood. Adding more not wise.
 

Razor

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A stronger economy always ends up as as great military power and pathetic economy ends up your influence.
I don't think it is that simple. One example is: Russian economy being almost shit in the 90s still had way more influence in Central Asia than China or the US. Russian economy is now smaller than US, CHN, IND but has more influence in the critical Central Asian region and it seems to be growing considering that the EAU is taking shape and moving forward.
India has increased indigenization from 25% to 40% and will be 70% in 2021.
Just to clarify.
What do you mean by this? 25% of GDP or manufacturing sector or something else; and also in which sectors primarily is this indigenization?
 

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..........Your point being?...........
My point is "big economy" is not everything and is even worse if you failed to capitalize on just like how kings and people of India failed to use vast economy for strategic gains in past.If you have will and willing go any length for it everything else will fall in the lines just see the example of CPC of china. In 1950s China was in worst condition than India(and still invaded Tibet and India) now see where China is today.

without strategic thinking and willingness for war , wealth is just going to invitation for invasion.
 
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Hari Sud

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If you do not stop China today, soon it will be breathing down India's neck. Hence it is better to stop it in South China Sea and keep it busy there.
 

Anupu

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The problem is our poor planning... I am a nationalist too. But we guys (as in our bureaucracy and political class) has no idea of military matters. We haven't yet learned our lesson. Japan is a great example. Till 1865 Japan was in isolation. Tokugawa shogunate had stopped all foreigners from entering Japan and all Japanese from leaving it.

Imagine before Meiji restoration in 1868 these guys were in still feudal era. Had no industries and no railways and didn't even knew what a clock was. In 1905 they defeat Russia in Russo-Japanese war. Russia was a superpower then and it's military was considered one of the most advanced. in less than 40 years the country transformed itself.

Infact if you read about Meiji restoration it only took 20 years for them to make most changes, from 1875 onwards. They focused on military from day 1. Ishin Shishi the organization that led the Meiji revolution initially wanted to get rid of the westerners. But when they realized they can't defeat them by swords, they decided to learn there "barbarian" ways. Did we ever had the guts to do that even our nationalist are busy shouting our superiority all the time? These guys were mainly samurais and the first social reform they did was to destroy samurai class and it's privileges. And we hindus are not ready budge even a little.

Most reforms get stonewalled because either farmers or traders or someone or the other is hurting. Throughout human history progress comes with discomfort. Strength can't be achieved by moving slowly and hoping we will find a utopia, people will have to make economical, social and political sacrifice.

What kind of drastic reform we see today? The Strategic partnership idea seemed like a good idea. Straight out of Japanese handbook, read about zaibatsu system. We still have little progress on that. Still no CDS reform and Babus still control the entire military planning and development sector. With little to no Idea on how wars are actually fought.

Modi needs to focus on reforms he can get done, otherwise this gamble of siding with US will not pay off.
 

Indx TechStyle

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Agreed. So, what happened? Big economy should have meant more research, more innovation and larger military capabilities right? You have successfully given an example which argues against your point. So, thank you!
Tell me how?
It exactly supports my point. I said India will catch up meanwhile Russia will decline and gave a valid explanation of it.
If you will bring the point of "should" do here, all giant economies invest heavily on defence and research. You don't need to tell them to do so.
Yes I can. It's called siege mentality. Throughout history siege armies have achieved great things. One of world's greatest offensive force, that of Gengis Khan - leave aside economy, they didn't have a country. And yet they were feared by all. The Vikings - massive military power. They had no great kingdom, forget economy. Japan WW2 - Massive military might, army of poor people. Country itself was struggling in poverty. Yet it managed to crush the mighty Manchuria, and let us not even talk about how great Uncle Sam struggled against the Japanese. Come to recent times - Russia. Second most powerful nation on earth (enough of Chinese bluff, the Chinese have rubbish hardware and worthless military, only thing they have is economy) So no, absolutely disagree with your point.
You can take similar example of Israel in modern time. A small state defeated entire United Arab Republic.
But again, how many "wonderful" nations you have on earth?
Moreover, Israel defeated Muslims, but they also can't fight too long with a large Satan.
If talking Russia, they won't be that wonder at all. You insulted Chinese hardware (I won't comment) but have you ever checked the Russian tech?
Yes, they have powerful SAM systems like S-400 but have you ever checked, how many of their space missions fail, aircrafts crash and how much fuel even their engines consume.
Russia engines have a life of just 2000 hours compared to Indian ones in 6000 hours.
I had one rupee in my pocket, my friend gave me another. So I became two times richer. But does 2 rupees make me rich in 2016? This is laughable.
I had 1 lakh ruppees last year and I earned 1 lakh more this year (this looks substantial to feel richer.;))
I was world's 13-14th largest economy with $1.2 trillions and now I'm 7th with $2.3 trillions and boast of world's 4th largest defense budget and one of the strongest armed forces.
I was even behind Japanese few years ago, today my conventional forces give me edge over UK and France.

Because India is not a ruppee one economy. It's huge, very huge, so it's growth matters. You can use that argument for Bhutan (growing faster than us) who's a pathetically tiny economy and nothing even if doubled.
Pray what innovations are you talking about? I don't see the next Microsoft, next Boeing, next ThysennKrupp, next Pfizer, next Chevron, next General Motors, next Hyundai being Bharatiya. So, enlighten us about these innovations.
As of 2015, India filed more than 3400 patents, compared to 1300 last time.
And if you wanna call companies innovations, we have our own name in different fields as compared to Microsoft etc.(and brainchild, you only cite news about foreign innovations and companies, ever been about Indian?)
TATA Motors, Micromax (third most popular in Russia and 10th in world), Godrej Aerospace or I can list some nice R&D companies like Piramal Group?
I can't list up all here(nor I remember much but you are free to search on Google or on my threads).
I am a Hindu nationalist,
I'm Atheist. Atheism too has been a part of India historically.
but even a nationalist must accept ground realities.
But that nationalist must also "update" the realities. A person has been reminding of growing gap between Chinese and Indian GDP per capita since 2008, meanwhile India has restored faster per capita income growth than China since 2014.
Some morons still call Indian poverty ratio is 22.5%(it's just 7.7% now).
I don't think it is that simple. One example is: Russian economy being almost shit in the 90s still had way more influence in Central Asia than China or the US. Russian economy is now smaller than US, CHN, IND but has more influence in the critical Central Asian region and it seems to be growing considering that the EAU is taking shape and moving forward.
  1. Russia is hegemonic power of that region at first place. India has influence in South Asia, similarly they're in Central Asia.
  2. Russia did not lose all Soviet era weapons during dissolution of USSR.
  3. Russia economy may be smaller than India, China or US, it's still not "pathetic" and among G20. Russia invests more than double in percentage on defense as compared to India. That's all.
Just to clarify.
What do you mean by this? 25% of GDP or manufacturing sector or something else; and also in which sectors primarily is this indigenization?
Intelligent person, I'm talking about defense sector.:D
We imported 75% of defense procurement and made 25% in India, toady, we have reduced to 60% imported and 40% is built in nation, we have target for importing less than 30% and making more than 70% in nation.
Now, understood?:p
 
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Razor

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Intelligent person, I'm talking about defense sector.:D
We imported 75% of defense procurement and made 25% in India, toady, we have reduced to 60% imported and 40% is built in nation, we have target for importing less than 30% and making more than 70% in nation.
Now, understood?:p

And this 25%,60% etc is in terms of cost/revenue.
A source (an informative one, not TOI-let types) would be great.
 

Razor

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The problem is our poor planning... I am a nationalist too. But we guys (as in our bureaucracy and political class) has no idea of military matters. We haven't yet learned our lesson. Japan is a great example. Till 1865 Japan was in isolation. Tokugawa shogunate had stopped all foreigners from entering Japan and all Japanese from leaving it.

Imagine before Meiji restoration in 1868 these guys were in still feudal era. Had no industries and no railways and didn't even knew what a clock was. In 1905 they defeat Russia in Russo-Japanese war. Russia was a superpower then and it's military was considered one of the most advanced. in less than 40 years the country transformed itself.

Infact if you read about Meiji restoration it only took 20 years for them to make most changes, from 1875 onwards. They focused on military from day 1. Ishin Shishi the organization that led the Meiji revolution initially wanted to get rid of the westerners. But when they realized they can't defeat them by swords, they decided to learn there "barbarian" ways. Did we ever had the guts to do that even our nationalist are busy shouting our superiority all the time? These guys were mainly samurais and the first social reform they did was to destroy samurai class and it's privileges. And we hindus are not ready budge even a little.
Rurouni Kenshin ????
:pmegusta:
 

Indx TechStyle

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And this 25%,60% etc is in terms of cost/revenue.
A source (an informative one, not TOI-let types) would be great.
It's cost.
There's a thread for more than 100 sources on my status. Open my profile.:)
 

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