MMRCA News and Discussions - Part II

[slenke]

The engines are subject to US export controls.



Meteor is a division product of MBDA. The marketing decisions for the missile come from the company of which Sweden is not a shareholder.



You mean as desperate as forming a whole company called "Gripen International"?

The engine is, like I said, part Volvo. I would still say that the engine part i covered. India has requirements for ToT, and I'm pretty sure SAAB know the requirements and believe they are able to meet them. Otherwise it would be a complete waste of time and money to be competing, right?

There is still Swedish tech in the Meteor, if you don't believe it, prove me wrong. So you are saying that the MBDA makes the ToT rules? Sorry, I don't think so. In that case Boeing and other american companies wouldn't have a problem exporting whatever they wanted.

You mean desperate as "Rafale International"?
http://frontierindia.net/rafale-international-sets-up-office-in-greece
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_pwwi/is_200803/ai_n24367643/
"Rafale International, composed by Dassault Aviation, Thales and Snecma, moves a step forward in Greece by reinforcing its presence in Athens."
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en...y-reinforcing-its-presence-in-athens.html?L=1
"Today, March 4 2008, Mr. Eric Trappier Rafale International Managing Director has inaugurated the Rafale International office, located 80-88 Syngrou Avenue, 117 41 Athens in presence of H. E. Mr Christophe Farnaud, Ambassador of France in Greece, during a ceremony held at the French Embassy."

nuf said

However I don't se a problem creating a company with "international" in it if your goal is EXPORT.

 

[slenke]

slenke how about offering the new A26 subs it would be an easy sell.

Yeah.. Why not? There is another country involved. But wich one is still not official.

 

[Armand2REP]

The engine is, like I said, part Volvo. I would still say that the engine part i covered. India has requirements for ToT, and I'm pretty sure SAAB know the requirements and believe they are able to meet them. Otherwise it would be a complete waste of time and money to be competing, right?

The RFP doesn't require 100% ToT, but those who can offer more have the advantage. Saab is just able to meet it but is by far from the "Independent Choice."

There is still Swedish tech in the Meteor, if you don't believe it, prove me wrong. So you are saying that the MBDA makes the ToT rules? Sorry, I don't think so. In that case Boeing and other american companies wouldn't have a problem exporting whatever they wanted.

The MBDA shareholder countries make the ToT rules, that isn't Sweden.

You mean desperate as "Rafale International"?

You're the one calling them desperate. I just showed you how silly your statement was.

nuf said

 

[slenke]

The RFP doesn't require 100% ToT, but those who can offer more have the advantage. Saab is just able to meet it but is by far from the "Independent Choice."



The MBDA shareholder countries make the ToT rules, that isn't Sweden.



You're the one calling them desperate. I just showed you how silly your statement was.

nuf said

Independent choice: Well I suppose that the next thing you are going to say is that the Rafale is the independent choice? By being 100 % reliant on France?
Meteor: Even if some technology patents are Swedish? I'm sure that the whole "meteor export thing" is covered by contracts with all the parties involved!

 

[Armand2REP]

Independent choice: Well I suppose that the next thing you are going to say is that the Rafale is the independent choice? By being 100 % reliant on France?

France can offer a package that is 100% based on French components, we even have a substitute for Link 16. Sweden on the otherhand is reliant to the tune of 40% on foreign components for the NG.

Meteor: Even if some technology patents are Swedish? I'm sure that the whole "meteor export thing" is covered by contracts with all the parties involved!

Guy, most of the key technology in the Meteor is French. The seeker is based on MICA/Aster and the ramjet propulsion is based on ASMP. The HQ of MBDA is in Paris and the CEO is French. We have the lionshare of say in where it goes. We will allow Meteor to go on export Gripens but giving ToT for manufacture is not going to be an offer Sweden could ever hope to make.

 

[p2prada]

France can offer a package that is 100% based on French components, we even have a substitute for Link 16. Sweden on the otherhand is reliant to the tune of 40% on foreign components for the NG.

India will soon have a substitute of the link 22. We will not be using NATO or Russian supplied datalinks after 2012.

 

[mayfair]

I am not as familiar with the systems on offer as some of the fellow members, but this intrigues me a tad . Mirage 2000 is/was in service with several air forces around the world, most of them are reportedly very happy with the plane including our very own. The logical course of action for them to replace these planes would be a fighter that offers continuity and reliability of the Mirage 2000 fleet, and that extra punch. Rafale would and should be the obvious choice in such case. However, what we do see is that there has been little more than a casual interest in Rafale, at least no firm orders have been placed. What could be the reason?

Unit cost? Eurofigther costs more, but has found more takers apart from the participating nations

Avionics? Supplies and spares? Transfer of technology? Specifications? I would believe that Rafale scores very highly on all these fronts. Then why does it have so much difficulty in capturing the global market?

 

[slenke]

I am not as familiar with the systems on offer as some of the fellow members, but this intrigues me a tad . Mirage 2000 is/was in service with several air forces around the world, most of them are reportedly very happy with the plane including our very own. The logical course of action for them to replace these planes would be a fighter that offers continuity and reliability of the Mirage 2000 fleet, and that extra punch. Rafale would and should be the obvious choice in such case. However, what we do see is that there has been little more than a casual interest in Rafale, at least no firm orders have been placed. What could be the reason?

Unit cost? Eurofigther costs more, but has found more takers apart from the participating nations

Avionics? Supplies and spares? Transfer of technology? Specifications? I would believe that Rafale scores very highly on all these fronts. Then why does it have so much difficulty in capturing the global market?

I would say that the countries backing EF has more political power. But doesn't EADS claim that even though the EF has a higher unit cost, it has a low operating cost?

 

[slenke]

France can offer a package that is 100% based on French components, we even have a substitute for Link 16. Sweden on the otherhand is reliant to the tune of 40% on foreign components for the NG.



Guy, most of the key technology in the Meteor is French. The seeker is based on MICA/Aster and the ramjet propulsion is based on ASMP. The HQ of MBDA is in Paris and the CEO is French. We have the lionshare of say in where it goes. We will allow Meteor to go on export Gripens but giving ToT for manufacture is not going to be an offer Sweden could ever hope to make.

Doesn't matter. Why invent the wheel over and over? SAAB is allowed to export everything in the plane to whoever it wants to. The only exeption is if that country is on a UN sanction list.

I would love to see documents claiming that France can do whatever it wants with the tech for Meteor. It doesn't matter if the HQ is in France. If som technology belongs to someone else, you need the concent from the parties involved. It's that simple. Like I said earlier, this is probably regulated through contracts with all countries involved.

 

[sunnyv]

French cant be trusted also , just like Sweden .
What advantage our LCA and RAFALE will have , cant be left to goodwill of French.

They are dying to supply top notch radar and avionics to Pakistan for JF17 , even if tech reaches to MASTERS OF COPYING thru Pakistan.
French are the ones who have taken the lead to - lift the arms embargo on china .

MRCA is meant to provide avionics + E.W wise, a platform that will overwhelm whatever PAK/CHINA throws at us.
That's why IAF has gone to extent even increasing the Weight category from Gripen to F18 ,
MRCA is gonna be a perfect leader/escort to a team of mki's, may be leaps ahead of su30

If FRANCE - continues to play , what they did till now in Submarine offer to our peaceful neighbor,
If given a choice wont hesitate in giving CHINA/PAK Rafale jets even if only a SQ worth.
What advantage we will have then in future.

Atleast Russia wont do so esp wrt to pakistan- Just read the newspaper abt putin's statement regarding military sales to Pakistan .

And RAFALE has contribution of Many US companies - I have seen a list on BR forum, Let me get it to be pasted here.

 

[sunnyv]

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=Dassault_Rafale​

Here it is - and these are US companies envolved
composits from
Magnolia Plastics, Inc. (U.S.A.)

Components / Electrical/Electronic Connectors
from HiRel Connectors, Inc. (U.S.A.)

and many more just scan whole data in Link

Rafale is not 100% indeginous

My point is if you are buying from FRANCE , there is no point to downplay SWEDEN

Gripen is an cost-effective perfect jet for IAF , it meets RFP fully
Even if it uses F114/ Lca will have them too ,
even if they sell AWACS to pak or Gripen NG PK to PAF
Even if 70% of jet is non-swedish

I am not a fan/supporter of GRIPEN , But this undue favour for EUROBIRD/RAFALE is not justified

Cost wise there is no match for what- GRIPEN/F16 can offer

 

[Armand2REP]

I said France "can" offer a package that is 100% domestic. If we need to change suppliers for carbon sheet and epoxy resin, the home of Airbus can handle it. Just as Thales can replace Link 16.

 

[sunnyv]

But how can you justify French potential sale to pakistan/china

Especially - when France has taken all effort and dying to lift arms embargo and sell to china+pak

 

[Armand2REP]

But how can you justify French potential sale to pakistan/china

Especially - when France has taken all effort and dying to lift arms embargo and sell to china+pak

I don't justify selling to Pak/China. We have an arms embargo on China and it was never cleared for PAF.

 

[sunnyv]

Anyways buddy - How much optimistic are Dassault and French policymakers regarding MRCA back in FRANCE.
I guess they have surrenderd

 

[Armand2REP]

Anyways buddy - How much optimistic are Dassault and French policymakers regarding MRCA back in FRANCE.
I guess they have surrenderd

I would say it looks very optimistic. The negotiations over Scorpene costs and Mirage-2000 upgrades were sticking in the side but those appear to be resolving. The Gripen NG is nowhere ready to participate in this tender which leaves it a non-factor. MiG-35 isn't doing much better and the huge deals signed with Russia looks like GoI is going away from them on MMRCA by appeasing with several other purchases. The US armouring Pakistan is a strain on relations with their welfare F-16s. India doesn't want to operate similar aircraft to PAF. That only leaves three on the shortlist...

Rafale
Eurofighter
Super Hornet

 

[sunnyv]

I would say it looks very optimistic. The negotiations over Scorpene costs and Mirage-2000 upgrades were sticking in the side but those appear to be resolving. The Gripen NG is nowhere ready to participate in this tender which leaves it a non-factor. MiG-35 isn't doing much better and the huge deals signed with Russia looks like GoI is going away from them on MMRCA by appeasing with several other purchases. The US armouring Pakistan is a strain on relations with their welfare F-16s. India doesn't want to operate similar aircraft to PAF. That only leaves three on the shortlist...

Rafale
Eurofighter
Super Hornet

k
we dont get much to read abt rafale lately in india.
But when is stnd3 scheduled to be delivered to FRENCH air FORCE.
Any news regarding possible sales in UAE,,Brazil( i heard saudis want some specific cruise missile on rafale and its integration is the contention bcoz missile is an American origin)
And whats the perception of french defence analyst regarding Rafale's performance against Eurofighter- whatever i heard Eurobird is better in aerial fighting.

 

[Armand2REP]

k
we dont get much to read abt rafale lately in india.
But when is stnd3 scheduled to be delivered to FRENCH air FORCE.
Any news regarding possible sales in UAE,,Brazil( i heard saudis want some specific cruise missile on rafale and its integration is the contention bcoz missile is an American origin)
And whats the perception of french defence analyst regarding Rafale's performance against Eurofighter- whatever i heard Eurobird is better in aerial fighting.

UAE wants SLAM-ER integrated on Rafale since they have an inventory on F-16s... no problem.

Performance against RAF Tyhpoons at DPAC last year was 7-1 Rafale.

 

[sunnyv]

UAE wants SLAM-ER integrated on Rafale since they have an inventory on F-16s... no problem.

Performance against RAF Tyhpoons at DPAC last year was 7-1 Rafale.

woooooooooo, 7-1 any link regarding that?????????????????
i doubt any plane can overwhelm these MRCA jets by this margin except f22/f35
All MIG35,Rafale,Euro,F18,F16,Gripen for me are excellent fighters only marginally everyone has a unique advantage of its own over other in one particular feature.

 

[Armand2REP]

woooooooooo, 7-1 any link regarding that?????????????????

http://secretdefense.blogs.liberati...ur-le-rafale-lors-dexercices-aux-emirats.html

i doubt any plane can overwhelm these MRCA jets by this margin except f22/f35

I doubt F-35 would do so well.

All MIG35,Rafale,Euro,F18,F16,Gripen for me are excellent fighters only marginally everyone has a unique advantage of its own over other in one particular feature.

yes