MMRCA and the Chinese Threat

[Agnostic_Indian]

@Mariner HK
which 160km missile are you talking about ?

 

[halloweene]

As i am polite, i will not answer...
If you really know at which distance a SU35 can detect a Rafale(and the reverse), your datas value billion dollars.
Let me say one thing : Core Rafale program was deep strike nuke.
Think about it.

 

[Mariner HK]

@Mariner HK
which 160km missile are you talking about ?

Vympel R-77M range 80km - 160km from high altitude.Its multi-purpose missile for both tactical and strategic aircraft for fire-and-forget use against a range of aircraft from hovering helicopters to high speed, low altitude aircraft. Speed is Mach 4.5 meteor speed is mach 4 range is 60-100 km .

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Vympel R-77M range 80km - 160km from high altitude.Its multi-purpose missile for both tactical and strategic aircraft for fire-and-forget use against a range of aircraft from hovering helicopters to high speed, low altitude aircraft. Speed is Mach 4.5 meteor speed is mach 4 range is 60-100 km .

I think it's still under development, even if it's developed not sure whether China is purchasing it or Russia is selling it, if selling it it could be a export version which will not have same performance or configuration. so many questions to be answered.

 

[Mariner HK]

As i am polite, i will not answer...
If you really know at which distance a SU35 can detect a Rafale(and the reverse), your datas value billion dollars.
Let me say one thing : Core Rafale program was deep strike nuke.
Think about it.

We really do have respect to france defence projects surely for rafale... u please just compare and think once and reply me.What is the rcs of rafale ?Range of meteor missile ?
Now lets look at Meteor itself

Length 3.65 m
Diameter 0.178 m
Warhead High Explosive Blast-Fragmentation
Detection mechanism Proximity / Impact
Engine Throttleable ducted rocket
Operational range 100+ km (60+ mi)
Speed over Mach 4
Guidance system Inertial Mid-course with Datalinked Updates, Active Radar
Launch platform Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, JAS 39 Gripen

Now RCS of rafale

Rafale's "stealth" is of a alot of discussion...

Dassault claim they have the most stealthy aircraft other than the F-22/F-35 "1/10th the RCS of the Mirage 2000"
However, Eurofighter GMBH have said nothing else has a RCS lower than the Typhoon except the F-22/F-35.

As a very good "measurebater" Toan has calculated... using 1/10th RCS of the M2000... the Rafale's RCS is: 0.1~1.3 m2
However the Typhoons RCS is: 0.05~0.1 m2

Now lets see at what range Su-35 can detect aircraft with RCS of 0.1 to 1.3 m^2
Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km


DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!

Now tell me which fighter will have first BVR range missile strike ?

 

[Mariner HK]

I think it's still under development, even if it's developed not sure whether China is purchasing it or Russia is selling it, if selling it it could be a export version which will not have same performance or configuration. so many questions to be answered.

Dude our su 30 mki has it chinese and all other russian buyers has this missile... Meteor is developed just get head to head against this heavy weight beast of russia... It was developed in 1984 or 85 ....

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Dude our su 30 mki has it chinese and all other russian buyers has this missile... Meteor is developed just get head to head against this heavy weight beast of russia... It was developed in 1984 or 85 ....

what we all have is different version (RVV AE), this is suppose to be a improved version with ramjet propulsion (R-77RVV-AE-PD.)
.please go through wiki.

 

[Mariner HK]

As i am polite, i will not answer...
If you really know at which distance a SU35 can detect a Rafale(and the reverse), your datas value billion dollars.
Let me say one thing : Core Rafale program was deep strike nuke.
Think about it.

wat ever rafale radar dectection range for 1 m^2 rcs of su 35... first kill ll be from su 35,,... or dig fight decides the rest which i think both are high capable dogfighters... unless u have a real fight we cant determine the result ...

 

[Mariner HK]

Let me say one thing : Core Rafale program was deep strike nuke.
Think about it.

even mirage 2000 are nuke strikers for india.So mirage better than rafale? even su 30 mki is a multi role fighter bomber,,,too

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

wat ever rafale radar dectection range for 1 m^2 rcs of su 35... first kill ll be from su 35,,... or dig fight decides the rest which i think both are high capable dogfighters... unless u have a real fight we cant determine the result ...

again we don't know the detection range of new aesa from rafale, you should calculate the rcs of fighter jet with weapon load, not clean rcs.

 

[Mariner HK]

again we don't know the detection range of new aesa from rafale, you should calculate the rcs of fighter jet with weapon load, not clean rcs.

but we know range of ,eteor and radar dection range of su 35... if rafale have 1 rcs withh fully loaded(impossible) yet su 35 ll detect at 280+ kms... with new generation missile onboard which are highly advanced than one used on su 30s... it will have a clear kill from stand of rang.Even if rafale detect su 35 at 200km with its power full radar... it need to get to a distance of 100 km to home meteor missile on su35... Now it makes sence?why su 35 with chinese is a mater of concern even if u have rafale...

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

but we know range of ,eteor and radar dection range of su 35... if rafale have 1 rcs withh fully loaded(impossible) yet su 35 ll detect at 280+ kms... with new generation missile onboard which are highly advanced than one used on su 30s... it will have a clear kill from stand of rang.Even if rafale detect su 35 at 200km with its power full radar... it need to get to a distance of 100 km to home meteor missile on su35... Now it makes sence?why su 35 with chinese is a mater of concern even if u have rafale...

refer post #67

 

[Mariner HK]

refer post #67

ok ... but india already operate 160 km missile range bvm.... not sure about china but with su 35 they ll get even advanced missile than one used on su 30...let wait and watch

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

ok ... but india already operate 160 km missile range bvm.... not sure about china but with su 35 they ll get even advanced missile than one used on su 30...let wait and watch

why don't you get it ? what we use is a different version with a range around (R77 RVV-AE) 110 km.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@Mariner HK , here is something for you to read, if you don't mind reading something written by me. good night.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...sual-range-bvr-fighter-combat.html#post575835

 

[p2prada]

I ll be happy if we had su 35 in our fleet...

Unnecessary waste of money. You never invest in something that only provides an incremental capability.

But su35 with its 400Km radar which can detect Rafale RCS with in rage of 180 KM

Depends on what's on the external stores.

...If it was armed with 160 Km missile or Bramos 300km range ? RAFALE dont even get a chance to fight a battle ... WHAT DO U THINK ABOUT THIS?

How will Brahmos help?

 

[p2prada]

As i am polite, i will not answer...
If you really know at which distance a SU35 can detect a Rafale(and the reverse), your datas value billion dollars.
Let me say one thing : Core Rafale program was deep strike nuke.
Think about it.

Rafale is still an obsolete air to air platform compared to F-22/F-35.

Also, Su-35s RCS is much smaller than the older Flanker RCS figures. Something like the F/A-18 Hornet vs the F/A-18 Super Hornet.

We don't know what is Su-35s current frontal RCS. It could very well be below F-16s RCS heck it could even be at Super Hornet's level.

 

[arya]

well as an indian we have to thi k the right answer for su35 , mmrca is good but i feel we should cut the order and we should also cut su30 mki order we can go for su35 for some numbers .

 

[p2prada]

well as an indian we have to thi k the right answer for su35 , mmrca is good but i feel we should cut the order and we should also cut su30 mki order we can go for su35 for some numbers .

IAF did not find the Su-35 to be favorable. IAF will induct FGFA instead while upgrading MKI in the meantime.

MKI has a very short upgrade cycle and the upgrades will be carried out in phases. So, why would we need Su-35? The upgrades will push it past the Su-35 anyway. The Chinese order for just 24 aircraft is not a threat to India.

MMRCA is supposed to handle a completely different requirement. There is no point even relating it to MKI/Su-35/FGFA. It is for an entirely different purpose and we may see increased orders instead. We are trying to replace our old fighters on a numbers basis while focusing on superior capabilities.

Meaning every Mig-27 squadron is being replaced with a Rafale squadron. Every Mig-21/Mig-23 squadron is being replaced with a MKI squadron (LCA in the future). In the future every Jaguar squadron will eventually be replaced with one or two squadrons of AMCA.

 

[arya]

IAF did not find the Su-35 to be favorable. IAF will induct FGFA instead while upgrading MKI in the meantime.

MKI has a very short upgrade cycle and the upgrades will be carried out in phases. So, why would we need Su-35? The upgrades will push it past the Su-35 anyway. The Chinese order for just 24 aircraft is not a threat to India.

MMRCA is supposed to handle a completely different requirement. There is no point even relating it to MKI/Su-35/FGFA. It is for an entirely different purpose and we may see increased orders instead. We are trying to replace our old fighters on a numbers basis while focusing on superior capabilities.

Meaning every Mig-27 squadron is being replaced with a Rafale squadron. Every Mig-21/Mig-23 squadron is being replaced with a MKI squadron (LCA in the future). In the future every Jaguar squadron will eventually be replaced with one or two squadrons of AMCA.

sir please let me know how iaf will counter su35 , hou are talking future , pls tell me how to fill the gap .

Tell me how to counter them .

What will be ratio in war , don' t you know su30 mki deployment on china border is meaningles.