MMRCA and the Chinese Threat

[arya]

YES!!! we are getting pak fa buy 2022... It will be a good fighter.. but what stops india to have 124+46 Su 35 and 200 Pak fa ? compare it with 124+46 Rafale and 200 pakfa

as i said many time mmrc should split Rafael is bes in his class , we have to go 30-40 su35 also

but we have to learn and use them in our technology.

So many thread on same topic

Mod please merge all the thread

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Both of you need to learn about things you talk..

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Radar :

Avionics upgrade: Super Sukhoi 30 will get new cockpit layout ( PAK-FA ) with new upgraded avionics, onboard computers, electronic warfare systems ,which will also include active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, Radar planned for "Super Sukhoi 30 "will be Russian Tikhomirov's NIIP, Same one used in present PAK-FA..

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Weapons upgrade :

Another major upgrade in regards to weapons package will be that upgraded Super 30 will be able to integrate non-Russian weapons. means it can carry Meteor / Astra BVR, Mica / Magic WVR missiles, Western design A2G missiles such as French Scalp and Smaller Brahmos missles design for Rafale.

===================================

Stealth:

To reduce Radar cross section of the Sukhoi 30 , Airframe will get several structural changes which include more use of carbon composites than metal to the airframe to reduce its radar signature , airframe will also get special radar absorbing paint coat to further reduce its RCS.

PS : Lighter Airframe with same powerful engine gives better agility than previous heavier Airframe


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About Numbers :

Irkut's president and chairman Alexy Fedorov said at the Moscow Air Show .The fleet is under licenced production at the Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) currently has five operational Sukhoi 30MKI squadrons numbering around 100 aircraft. It will ultimately have over 230 Sukhoi-30MKIs or 13 squadrons in its fleet. the entire fleet will be upgraded to the 'Super Sukhoi' configuration.

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Extracted from following links :

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/1363-su-30-mki-82.html

http://rusembassy.in/index.php?opti...catid=16:press-on-bilateral-relations&lang=en

India's Su-30MKI to become Super Sukhoi | Russia & India Report

IAF to upgrade Su-30MKIs to `Super Sukhoi` standard

========================================================

At the end of the day, SU-30MKI have better radar, Better Arms both A2A & A2G and Improved maneuverability so does better stealth compare to Old SU-35..

kunal you are living in future . Will you prove me how super su is better than su 35 will its just upgraded version .Pls show some light on how super su30 is better then su35.

Kunal ho super su 30 mki ill be better than Su 35 ? please explain ith spec atleast close to it.... Super sukoi will come close to su 35 but cant be su 35 itself...

Am really amazed by ur comment...DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

I was eagerly waiting for Kunal bhai's answer........

 

[Mariner HK]

At the end of the day, SU-30MKI have better radar, Better Arms both A2A & A2G and Improved maneuverability so does better stealth compare to Old SU-35..

bro thanks for ur info ...and so modified super sukoi beter than su 35 ? please specify some real specification with numbers ...

please check ma specs below MKI vs su 35s ...and tell me wat are all the change in specifications from original su 30 mki.. ? check su 35 specs too and tell me how modified fighter came out match or even better than su-35s which chinese are buys ....as u claim ...

Differences:
Su-30MKI-
Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 1.9
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - unofficial estimate 11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


Su-35S-
Maximum internal fuel - 11,500kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling, without external fuel tanks) - 3600kms
Max ceiling - 18km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - No (since radar isn't heavy)
Crew - 1
Max Afterburner Thrust - 14500kgf(gives a massive boost to TWR compared to Su-30MKI)
External Fuel Tanks - Yes (can carry 2 drop tanks of 1400kgs fuel in each of them)
Composites - Yes. Extensive use of Titanium Alloys.
Empty Weight - Unknown. Estimated to be around 18800kgs.
Airframe life - 6,000hrs or 30 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - Yes
RCS - unofficial estimate between 1-3m2
Airbrake - No. Powerful modified rudders act as Airbrakes.
Supercruise - Yes

Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)

Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km

 

[Mariner HK]

About Numbers :Irkut's president and chairman Alexy Fedorov said at the Moscow Air Show .The fleet is under licenced production at the Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) currently has five operational Sukhoi 30MKI squadrons numbering around 100 aircraft. It will ultimately have over 230 Sukhoi-30MKIs or 13 squadrons in its fleet. the entire fleet will be upgraded to the 'Super Sukhoi' configuration.

wat is the cost of this upgrade. We upgrading mirage 2000 at the rate of new f 16s... su35 cost 60 mill a peice...

As far as i know this upgrade of 42 su 20 mki to cost india 1 billion $ .... "The Super Sukhoi project, therefore, will allow the latter to transition swiftly to fully capable 5th generation fighter jets. The cost of the modernisation remains uncertain but the price tag could be around $1 billion." If its so it will be a big joke for not buying new and real 4+++ gen fighter than converting 4 gen fighter into 4+ gen fighter... HUUUUUGE DIFFRENCE.... and u think super is better than su 35

plz let us know about the price if possible it ll be great help ty

 

[Kunal Biswas]

As you are a newbie, I appreciate your time and hardworking, But mate your are giving me wrong comparison and you dont read other posts too before coming to your own conclusion..

There is no where Specs are available of Super SU-30MKI, Its payload and weight and RCS are drastically changed due to use of extensive composite as i have explained with my previous post so does about Radar and everything else, till then i think your should compare the specs what i have provided with ..

Read the links provided, All the details given there..

bro thanks for ur info ...and so modified super sukoi beter than su 35 ? please specify some real specification with numbers ...

please check ma specs below MKI vs su 35s ...and tell me wat are all the change in specifications from original su 30 mki.. ? check su 35 specs too and tell me how modified fighter came out match or even better than su-35s which chinese are buys ....as u claim ...

wat is the cost of this upgrade.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@ Mariner HK
I see you are concerned about what will face Chinese su35 ?
first of all like I said the order is not going to be in big numbers, they are doing it as a stop gap measure or a specimen sample for j20 engine.
now rafale with it's aesa radar(su35 pesa) and passive detection will have it's advantages against su35.rafale good at a2g does not mean it is bad at A2A.

 

[Mariner HK]

As you are a newbie, I appreciate your time and hardworking,

Thank you bro

But mate your are giving me wrong comparison and you dont read other posts too before coming to your own conclusion..

issue concern me is rafale vs su 35... we have all fighter jets in past with pakistan specific..to have good A2G role like mirage2000 jaguar...and our future fighters too have a2g supermacy.like tejas mk1 mk2 ,Amca multirole. my simple point is tat why we need rafale which is best AG but fair enough A2A fighter. its ok till chinese had su 30 mkk j11 j10 etc..War with china is not some Dejavo ..its so real.we need to take on 2 front war with jf17 , j11b ,su27 ,su 30 mkk and now su 35.

We are happy untill chinese stops with 22 fighters.But follow on is provided with the agrement signed few day ago.like they bought su 27 and orderd 200 fighters later.I ws really happy with rafale but hoped for EF. But now 2013 su 35 with chinese is the matter of concern.Even morale of a troops will be high with su35 against su 30 and rafale .Giving its range,power plant stealth,playload mix of weapons and not to forget its a full blown Air superiority fighter. Fighters wont fight on terrain and hills alone...it will be at sea too wr Air supermacy is the only key ...

There is no where Specs are available of Super SU-30MKI, Its payload and weight and RCS are drastically changed due to use of extensive composite as i have explained with my previous post so does about Radar and everything else, till then i think your should compare the specs what i have provided with ..

u are comparing super with su35. rafale wont stand a chance in front of super sukoi...even with su30 mki with 160km range missile against meteor 100 km range its not a sure kill for rafale against mki...tat too super sukoi will give a hard time for rafale even EF at A2A battle... With all respect to our RUSSIAN friend's fighter jet supermacy... West dint had a clue when they saw su27 roaring in the skies and now su 35 and su 37... Its time for india to think wisely trust with russian design and learn about west technology... Am not saying we dont need rafale but we need to mix a bit some su 35 and ef and rafale..... to maintain quality of our fleet... TY

 

[Mariner HK]

first of all like I said the order is not going to be in big numbers, they are doing it as a stop gap measure or a specimen sample for j20 engine.
now rafale with it's aesa radar(su35 pesa) and passive detection will have it's advantages against su35.rafale good at a2g does not mean it is bad at A2A.

engine of su 27 copied by chinese are worthless.when they copied 27 russians wr not happy and stoped offensive high tech weapon sale for a decade now.

but now they sold su 35. recently russians said tat they are very confident china cant copy it.so they dont care now. China buying su 35 against mmrca . When they have j20 on skies .. something is fishy.Su 35s are made to gohead to head with Typoon i mean new eupoean country's frontline fighter jet.Add provided by sukoi aslo based on su35 vs typoon. Which is far better than France rafale.Am afraid its a another scam by our Nehru family . Rafale was rejected while field trails itself later it was brought back and won the deal.Our IAF's first choice was Typoon How do u know china wont bult order ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is nothing SU-35 nor Super SU-30MKI have against Rafale`s EW suit call spectra so does Rafale HMDS, Rafale also have a good edge in data fusion technology..

 

[Mariner HK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBbA3s-XF-4

 

[Mariner HK]

There is nothing SU-35 nor Super SU-30MKI have against Rafale`s EW suit call spectra so does Rafale HMDS, Rafale also have a good edge in data fusion technology..

please upload this video ... i cant up;oad it shows i not permited to...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzDPyDNdv7M

Mod Edit: Your not permitted because you have not verified your e-mail. You have to verify by clicking a link in the e-mail we sent you. Anyways, I have changed your permissions and you will be able to post links now.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

engine of su 27 copied by chinese are worthless.when they copied 27 russians wr not happy and stoped offensive high tech weapon sale for a decade now.

but now they sold su 35. recently russians said tat they are very confident china cant copy it.so they dont care now. China buying su 35 against mmrca . When they have j20 on skies .. something is fishy.Su 35s are made to gohead to head with Typoon i mean new eupoean country's frontline fighter jet.Add provided by sukoi aslo based on su35 vs typoon. Which is far better than France rafale.Am afraid its a another scam by our Nehru family . Rafale was rejected while field trails itself later it was brought back and won the deal.Our IAF's first choice was Typoon How do u know china wont bult order ?

China is looking for a supercruising engine for J20 and apparently that is the motive behind ordering su35, earlier also China did ordered something from Russia (forgot whether it's engine or fighter ) and later reduced the numbers and produced their own copy cat version.
as for rafale is concerned, it won several competitions but failed to bag a order because of financial and political reasons.please go through rafale aesa advantages, spectra and mica combination, etc

 

[Mariner HK]

HAIL HAIL... long live MOD ...thank you so much :thumb:

 

[Armand2REP]

As you are a newbie, I appreciate your time and hardworking, But mate your are giving me wrong comparison and you dont read other posts too before coming to your own conclusion..

There is no where Specs are available of Super SU-30MKI, Its payload and weight and RCS are drastically changed due to use of extensive composite as i have explained with my previous post so does about Radar and everything else, till then i think your should compare the specs what i have provided with ..

Read the links provided, All the details given there..

Extensive use of composites? Are they going to rebuild the airframe?

 

[Mariner HK]

Extensive use of composites? Are they going to rebuild the airframe?

i think yes.Frame ll be made stronger to house bramos and to decreas rcs from 20 to 4

The prowess of IAF's frontline fighter aircraft Su-30MKI is set to get a boost with plans to equip them with missiles having a strike range of around 300 kilometres.

The plan is to upgrade the first 80 Su-30MKIs to the level 'Super Sukhois' which will have highly advanced radars and weapon systems, IAF sources told PTI.

Su-30 MKIs have been inducted into the IAF in four phases. The ones to be upgraded are from the first phase and the project is likely to be completed in the next three to four years, they said.

The sources said the plan involves equipping the aircraft with long-range stand-off missiles upto the range of 300 km and a request for information (ROI) was issued recently for procuring such a weapon system from global vendors. The missiles with a range around 300 kms would be in addition to the 290-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles which would be carried by around 50 aircraft of the force.

The aircraft would also have the highly-advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar along with the latest avionics systems, they said.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will work with the Russian help under a project expected to cost around Rs 10,900 crore for upgrading the Su-30 MKIs.

 

[Mariner HK]

3.02 low pass

 

[Mariner HK]

must watch ....

 

[p2prada]

wat is the cost of this upgrade. We upgrading mirage 2000 at the rate of new f 16s... su35 cost 60 mill a peice...

As far as i know this upgrade of 42 su 20 mki to cost india 1 billion $ .... "The Super Sukhoi project, therefore, will allow the latter to transition swiftly to fully capable 5th generation fighter jets. The cost of the modernisation remains uncertain but the price tag could be around $1 billion." If its so it will be a big joke for not buying new and real 4+++ gen fighter than converting 4 gen fighter into 4+ gen fighter... HUUUUUGE DIFFRENCE.... and u think super is better than su 35

plz let us know about the price if possible it ll be great help ty

Press Information Bureau English Releases

The current estimated cost is Rs. 10920 crores and the aircraft are likely to be upgraded in a phased manner from year 2012 onwards.

The actual cost is yet unknown.

Whether the radar and systems are superior to the Su-35 depends on the type of engine too. The 117S is definitely the better engine and the Su-35 itself is the better aircraft. But there are advantages and disadvantages to both aircraft.

For eg: Su-35 may show superior maneuverability in WVR and similar or better capability in BVR (depending on the radar). Anyway, as you posted, Irbis will have a 400Km+ capability for a 3m2 target. As of today, Bars has a 200Km capability against the same. In a Phase I upgrade program, Bars has a 300 Km capability while the Bars Phase II AESA upgrade is expected to double this. The Phase I upgrade doubles up Bars I's capability while Phase II doubles the Phase I Bars's capability. The radar will definitely be much more capable than the Irbis-E due to the AESA advantage.

Apart from that MKI has two pilots which allows greater battlespace control and provides the pilot with an easier environment to work in. Two heads are better than one.

The two pilot advantage, coupled with Bars AESA should equalize the Su-35s RCS advantage (which may not be a lot since MKIs RCS is expected to see reduction in the upgrade program). Sensor fusion on MKI should also be superior to what's on Su-35. Overall, the advantage here may lie with the upgraded MKI.

As for WVR, the advantage obviously lies with Su-35BM. Greater T/W ratio, 3D TVC, greater fuel etc. Nevertheless, we don't know if MKI will come with a major engine upgrade. So we need to wait for proper information regarding this aspect.

We have very little information on the Super MKI while we have enough information on Su-35. As of today, we cannot really compare the two properly.

Coming to Rafale, it is inferior to both MKI and Su-35BM in terms of radar capability and maybe even performance. But Rafale's advantage is touted to be more in the passive detection capabilities of its EW suite. So the powerful Irbis-E radar will have to face of an equivalent opponent with the Bars AESA while contending with the Passive capabilities that is offered on Rafale. India has a twin advantage here, in terms of a more capable AESA + more capable EW. Again a BVR advantage.

As for Rafale's selection in the MRCA, the EF-2000 has always, always come second to the Rafale since the Korean deal in 2002. In Korea, Rafale scored "Excellent" in all 5 parameters compared to EF's score of Excellent in 3 parameters and F-15Es score of Excellent in only two parameters. Look up the Suisse reports for the Rafale vs EF showdown.

Extensive use of composites? Are they going to rebuild the airframe?

Obviously not. Most probably only a patchwork. Hopefully there will be modifications to the inlets, like composites+new RAM coating, blocker etc.

 

[Mariner HK]

Press Information Bureau English Releases


The actual cost is yet unknown.

Whether the radar and systems are superior to the Su-35 depends on the type of engine too. The 117S is definitely the better engine and the Su-35 itself is the better aircraft. But there are advantages and disadvantages to both aircraft.

For eg: Su-35 may show superior maneuverability in WVR and similar or better capability in BVR (depending on the radar). Anyway, as you posted, Irbis will have a 400Km+ capability for a 3m2 target. As of today, Bars has a 200Km capability against the same. In a Phase I upgrade program, Bars has a 300 Km capability while the Bars Phase II AESA upgrade is expected to double this. The Phase I upgrade doubles up Bars I's capability while Phase II doubles the Phase I Bars's capability. The radar will definitely be much more capable than the Irbis-E due to the AESA advantage.

Apart from that MKI has two pilots which allows greater battlespace control and provides the pilot with an easier environment to work in. Two heads are better than one.

The two pilot advantage, coupled with Bars AESA should equalize the Su-35s RCS advantage (which may not be a lot since MKIs RCS is expected to see reduction in the upgrade program). Sensor fusion on MKI should also be superior to what's on Su-35. Overall, the advantage here may lie with the upgraded MKI.

As for WVR, the advantage obviously lies with Su-35BM. Greater T/W ratio, 3D TVC, greater fuel etc. Nevertheless, we don't know if MKI will come with a major engine upgrade. So we need to wait for proper information regarding this aspect.

We have very little information on the Super MKI while we have enough information on Su-35. As of today, we cannot really compare the two properly.

Coming to Rafale, it is inferior to both MKI and Su-35BM in terms of radar capability and maybe even performance. But Rafale's advantage is touted to be more in the passive detection capabilities of its EW suite. So the powerful Irbis-E radar will have to face of an equivalent opponent with the Bars AESA while contending with the Passive capabilities that is offered on Rafale. India has a twin advantage here, in terms of a more capable AESA + more capable EW. Again a BVR advantage.

As for Rafale's selection in the MRCA, the EF-2000 has always, always come second to the Rafale since the Korean deal in 2002. In Korea, Rafale scored "Excellent" in all 5 parameters compared to EF's score of Excellent in 3 parameters and F-15Es score of Excellent in only two parameters. Look up the Suisse reports for the Rafale vs EF showdown.



Obviously not. Most probably only a patchwork. Hopefully there will be modifications to the inlets, like composites+new RAM coating, blocker etc.

I ll be happy if we had su 35 in our fleet... EW suit alone done win a battle . Range of detection range of missile with battle awarness and baility of a fighter will win wars . Specta alone is not good enough to take down su 35 or super sukoi in this case.

As far as i know specta is a battle awarness and helps to adopte to any role like A2G A2A ,low pass etc ... But su35 with its 400Km radar which can detect Rafale RCS with in rage of 180 KM ...If it was armed with 160 Km missile or Bramos 300km range ? RAFALE dont even get a chance to fight a battle ... WHAT DO U THINK ABOUT THIS?