Missile test NOTAMs

[Jameson Emoni]

As far as entropy for developing sound encryption is concerned, India should be using cellular automaton or genome of an organism that is not a public knowledge. This will make it much harder for someone to break the encryption.

 

[porky_kicker]

If we have successfully masked all the telemetry signals then physical snooping becomes all the more imperative. Positioning radars and trackers to track the missile in its entire flight envelope.

Espionage is a Cat and mouse game

One does not operate on assumptions

Successfully masked is therefore a misnomer, if the adversaries manage to gather enough transmission data over a series of Indian tests and be able to piece it together into a workable and meaningful data set then they can run their tests on it.

Do you thing we use the same techniques for the telemetry channels for every test ?

Americans are the masters of this game. We are pitted against the best so every test is a fight.

Range can be easily found out via splash point and importantly range can be calculated for specific missiles based on other parameters obtained from snooping elsewhere like Specific fuel consumption (SFC), specific impulse, and effective exhaust velocity etc of motors

I am not saying you are wrong only stressing that telemetry data is the primary target others are a bonus.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

Espionage is a Cat and mouse game

One does not operate on assumptions

Successfully masked is therefore a misnomer, if the adversaries manage to gather enough transmission data over a series of Indian tests and be able to piece it together into a workable and meaningful data set then they can run their tests on it.

Do you thing we use the same techniques for the telemetry channels for every test ?

Americans are the masters of this game. We are pitted against the best so every test is a fight.

Range can be easily found out via splash point and importantly range can be calculated for specific missiles based on other parameters obtained from snooping elsewhere like Specific fuel consumption (SFC), specific impulse, and effective exhaust velocity etc of motors

I am not saying you are wrong only stressing that telemetry data is the primary target others are a bonus.

If I were designing a secure communication channel, I would make sure that the channel would consist of an array of frequencies. The entire transmission would not take place on one frequency alone. During the transmission, the channel would shift from one frequency to another. The process of shifting between the frequencies would be controlled by a set of algorithms that themselves would shift at a fixed interval. Unless a receiver knows the algorithms and their schedules, it would not be able to figure out which frequency to listen on. The data transmitted over each frequency would be encrypted and each of these frequencies would have their own unique encryption key generated using a robust randomization process; if possible each frequency should also use its own unique encryption algorithm. This should make it extremely hard for an unauthorized listener to decode the transmission. This design would pose two major hurdles. The first hurdle would be to figure out on which frequencies the communication is happening. The second hurdle would be to break the encryption for each of those frequencies. Even if one or two frequencies are compromised, the unauthorized listener would only gain access to partial data.

 

[no smoking]

Yeah but the adversary won't know it is a fake NOTAM unless they position their resources to check if we are making preparations.

The satellite images of India military bases are always taken on the routine trajectory with or without missile tests. So there is no extra cost here.
Those surviliance, tech aid ships and scientists are generally low security classes, it doesn't cost much to find out their movement.
On the other hand, it costs a lot for civilian vehicles/ships to re-plan their journey to avoid this area for the period. Among them, the majority is Indian.

So, putting out a fake NOTAM hurts India more than adversaries.

 

[ezsasa]

The satellite images of India military bases are always taken on the routine trajectory with or without missile tests. So there is no extra cost here.
Those surviliance, tech aid ships and scientists are generally low security classes, it doesn't cost much to find out their movement.
On the other hand, it costs a lot for civilian vehicles/ships to re-plan their journey to avoid this area for the period. Among them, the majority is Indian.

So, putting out a fake NOTAM hurts India more than adversaries.

Don't think shipping is that much of an issue.check the image from Navy Fusion centre..

 

[no smoking]

As being claimed in posts above, tracking the physical movement of missile by snoopers is not a big deal,

That is the big deal for your enemy's BMD system.

the big deal is getting hold of the telemetry data since it contains everything single event happening on the missile on a real time basis eg speed , acceleration , altitude , sequence of various control commands like for actuators , retro motors , RCS , stage separation , etc etc.

Speed, acceleration, altitude, stage separation can be tracked externally. The closer foreigners can get, the better pictures they will have.

RCS? Nobody cares RCS of ballistic missiles and your internal equipment can't tell the external RCS either.

For "sequence of various control commands like for actuators , retro motors", they are helpful to access India's missile tech, but not critical for combat planning.

 

[Craigs]

The satellite images of India military bases are always taken on the routine trajectory with or without missile tests. So there is no extra cost here.
Those surviliance, tech aid ships and scientists are generally low security classes, it doesn't cost much to find out their movement.
On the other hand, it costs a lot for civilian vehicles/ships to re-plan their journey to avoid this area for the period. Among them, the majority is Indian.

So, putting out a fake NOTAM hurts India more than adversaries.

Routine trajectories are not the issue - they can be mapped and activities planned to work around it - e.g. India's pokharan 2 tests. It is the non-routine positioning of assets that become expensive for adversaries.

Civilian traffic has no option but to avoid it, the cost will be borne by whoever owns those vessels and will be passed on to their customers not all of them are Indian. Eventually they will discover routes that avoid the test zones most of the time.

 

[porky_kicker]

That is the big deal for your enemy's BMD system.



Speed, acceleration, altitude, stage separation can be tracked externally. The closer foreigners can get, the better pictures they will have.

RCS? Nobody cares RCS of ballistic missiles and your internal equipment can't tell the external RCS either.

For "sequence of various control commands like for actuators , retro motors", they are helpful to access India's missile tech, but not critical for combat planning.

No offense but get bare minimum subject knowledge before commenting on the same

That is the big deal for your enemy's BMD system.

I said physical tracking versus intercepting telemetry data. The latter is always the primary objective of any snooper.

Speed, acceleration, altitude, stage separation can be tracked externally. The closer foreigners can get, the better pictures they will have.

The information contained in telemetry data is more exhaustive and accurate and hence can help to build up very reliable stimulation models , same cannot be said about externally generated data which will require data from multiple tests from the same missile to build up a working stimulation model and even then it will contain considerable margins of errors due to obvious reasons. Those doing the tests are under no obligation to make things easier for the snooper or are they according to you ?

RCS? Nobody cares RCS of ballistic missiles and your internal equipment can't tell the external RCS either.

As i said previously don't bother to comment on things you have no idea on.

I said RCS data being generated from internal sensors associated with onboard telemetry package of a missile .

What does that mean

RCS ( radar cross section ) of the missile ?
Or
RCS ( reaction control system ) of the missile ?

So much for bare minimum subject knowledge.

Radar cross section of any object can be measured by a external source only in controlled and calibrated conditions only.

Will you in your infinite wisdom associate such conditions with a missile under flight test in the real world ?

As i said don't comment on things you have no knowledge on .

For "sequence of various control commands like for actuators , retro motors", they are helpful to access India's missile tech, but not critical for combat planning

Why ? Because in your infinite wisdom you think so

Sequence of onboard commands linked to corresponding kinematic physical state / changes in kinematic physical state of a object in flight is not helpful to generate accurate predictive models for combat planning against the same ?

Again at the risk of sounding like a broken record i will again repeat don't bother to comment on things you know nothing about

 

[porky_kicker]

If I were designing a secure communication channel, I would make sure that the channel would consist of an array of frequencies. The entire transmission would not take place on one frequency alone. During the transmission, the channel would shift from one frequency to another. The process of shifting between the frequencies would be controlled by a set of algorithms that themselves would shift at a fixed interval. Unless a receiver knows the algorithms and their schedules, it would not be able to figure out which frequency to listen on. The data transmitted over each frequency would be encrypted and each of these frequencies would have their own unique encryption key generated using a robust randomization process; if possible each frequency should also use its own unique encryption algorithm. This should make it extremely hard for an unauthorized listener to decode the transmission. This design would pose two major hurdles. The first hurdle would be to figure out on which frequencies the communication is happening. The second hurdle would be to break the encryption for each of those frequencies. Even if one or two frequencies are compromised, the unauthorized listener would only gain access to partial data.

All you said is ok imo, i am not informed of the detailed specifics of the same.

But anything that can be made can also be broken

And it is applicable to all provided one has the capability to do so


Also partial data is a veritable goldmine for those with the expertise.

Also partial data extracted from individual tests from a series of tests of the same missile can be pieced together to yield workable data. It might not be accurate enough but that's a speculative matter . Don't think any snooper will contact us to verify the validity of the data stolen through espionage . They and we have to live with the uncertainties.

 

[porky_kicker]

As far as entropy for developing sound encryption is concerned, India should be using cellular automaton or genome of an organism that is not a public knowledge. This will make it much harder for someone to break the encryption.

Quantum based is another avenue...

 

[happylion]

K4 test was done at the same time as Agni II test

 

[Jameson Emoni]

All you said is ok imo, i am not informed of the detailed specifics of the same.

But anything that can be made can also be broken

And it is applicable to all provided one has the capability to do so


Also partial data is a veritable goldmine for those with the expertise.

Also partial data extracted from individual tests from a series of tests of the same missile can be pieced together to yield workable data. It might not be accurate enough but that's a speculative matter . Don't think any snooper will contact us to verify the validity of the data stolen through espionage . They and we have to live with the uncertainties.

Of course, there is no such thing as 100% secure system. Your job is to make it difficult for snoopers. So that by the time they crack your encryption, data has lost its value. It is better for you that they get a partial fraction of partial data than the whole data. That is why a distributed channel is a good choice for transmission of sensitive data.

Reaching correct conclusion from corrupted or misleading data is a sophisticated science. I have fooled around with it. It is a fascinating field of study. I will talk more about it some other time. Tonight, I have to hit the bed.

 

[no smoking]

I said physical tracking versus intercepting telemetry data. The latter is always the primary objective of any snooper.

Only if India is stupid enough not to encrypt these telemetry data.

The information contained in telemetry data is more exhaustive and accurate and hence can help to build up very reliable stimulation models ,

Unfortunately it is lot easier to manipulate your telemetry data. You can change the pattern, format or even mixing the real data with incorrect information to confuse your enemy. However, you can't hide your missile's external feature.

same cannot be said about externally generated data which will require data from multiple tests from the same missile to build up a working stimulation model and even then it will contain considerable margins of errors due to obvious reasons.Those doing the tests are under no obligation to make things easier for the snooper or are they according to you ?

External data is more reliable because you CAN'T FAKE IT. You don't need to make it easier for anyone, the harder you try, the better for others.

I said RCS data being generated from internal sensors associated with onboard telemetry package of a missile.
RCS ( reaction control system ) of the missile ?
So much for bare minimum subject knowledge.
Radar cross section of any object can be measured by a external source only in controlled and calibrated conditions only.

Will you in your infinite wisdom associate such conditions with a missile under flight test in the real world ?

As i said don't comment on things you have no knowledge on .



Why ? Because in your infinite wisdom you think so

Sequence of onboard commands linked to corresponding kinematic physical state / changes in kinematic physical state of a object in flight is not helpful to generate accurate predictive models for combat planning against the same ?

I think you just watch too much Hollywood movies. I definitely have very limited knowledge on that part.

 

[porky_kicker]

The only takeaway from the 2 cent troll

Khali barten sabse jyadha shor

 

[sorcerer]

The only takeaway from the 2 cent troll

Khali barten sabse jyadha shor

Thats a 50 cent troll from chinese with no knowledge on the vertical..

50 Cents Instruction for Use:
1
1) Best results if ignored.
2) Repeat step 1 if necessary

 

[darshan978]

2 prithi missile night test fired simultaneously ........................................

 

[captscooby81]

Sp Agni-2 done and Prithvi done . Now what was pending out of 4 was K-4 test and Brahmos test which was scheduled for Nov 11 . Either k4 test has been conducted and not declared to media for what ever reason or it will be done within the next 10 days .

Agni 2 and Prithvi got tested on the same date it was planned, no postponing in these 2 tests. It was just K-4 test which couldn't happen because of cyclone in BoB

 

[happylion]

1. 4 test was done on the same day as Agni II test. They generally do not reveal details of K series tests. They sometimes declare it many months later or not at all.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

1. 4 test was done on the same day as Agni II test. They generally do not reveal details of K series tests. They sometimes declare it many months later or not at all.

K family is a secret missile project known to every one.

 

[Akula]

2 prithi missile night test fired simultaneously ........................................

Amazing video of Two Prithvi missiles being fired.