Misconception of Indian Caste System

[arnabmit]

consanguineous: of the same blood or origin; specifically: descended from the same ancestor

So no, he was not consanguineously Brahmin. He became Brahmin later by attaining wisdom.

Is your case that his consanguineous relatives were Brahmins ergo he is a brahmin , or he elevated himself to Brahmin status via penance etc, iirc something about this is mentioned in Mahabharta ?

If its latter then its only one of a handful of instance where a non-brahmin has been elevated to such a status.

 

[arnabmit]

As I said, Verna & Jati were merged together to create a bastardized version called Cast. It is deeply ingrained now over the last 10 centuries, and is difficult to remove.

Explain it to your peon, or ask him to read Vedas.

Please try to convince all those Brahmins who aren't "scholars" that they aren't Brahmins. Start with my peon.

 

[arnabmit]

No, it started earlier. Brahmanic quest for hegemonic societal power and establishment of bloodline based Verna predates the Islamic Invasion, and was made mainstream practice during the Islamic Occupation.

Is that so? Who knew the problem was this recent? Clearly this entire system has been misunderstood. Do you think it was villified by the Muslims and the British as well to shed a bad light upon Hindus?

 

[Singh]

consanguineous: of the same blood or origin; specifically: descended from the same ancestor

So no, he was not consanguineously Brahmin. He became Brahmin later by attaining wisdom.

If attaining wisdom aka enlightenment is the criteria of being a Brahmin, then there would be less than 0.01% Brahmins in India.

As I said, Verna & Jati were merged together to create a bastardized version called Cast. It is deeply ingrained now over the last 10 centuries, and is difficult to remove.

Explain it to your peon, or ask him to read Vedas.

[/B]

Since vedas are only reserved from Brahmins, and you have not attained wisdom atleast not at the level of Valmiki so your understanding of Vedas is faulty. I would suggest you "attain wisdom" and then become a Brahmin and then preach your beliefs.

 

[arnabmit]

If attaining wisdom aka enlightenment is the criteria of being a Brahmin, then there would be less than 0.01% Brahmins in India.

That's how the Verna system works, Collective-Qualitatively equal, Quantitatively unequal, without any barriers of crossover.

Numerically, Intellectuals/Policy makers are always few (Brahmins), Enforcers are more (Kshatriyas), Economy sustainers are even more (Vaishyas), actual producers/worksmen are the largest (Shudras).

Since vedas are only reserved from Brahmins, and you have not attained wisdom atleast not at the level of Valmiki so your understanding of Vedas is faulty. I would suggest you "attain wisdom" and then become a Brahmin and then preach your beliefs.

Dear MacaulayPutra, keep your commie venom with you. Your basic presumption "vedas are only reserved from Brahmins" is false, hence the rest of your argument, as usual, is bullshit.

One does NOT need to be a Brahmin (prerequisite) to read Vedas(olden times) or become a scholar(current times). On the contrary, One needs to read vedas, or become a scholar (prerequisite) to become a Brahmin.

 

[arnabmit]

[video=youtube_share;4J6KpDSvJNY]http://youtu.be/4J6KpDSvJNY[/video]

 

[Peter]

That's how the Verna system works, Collective-Qualitatively equal, Quantitatively unequal, without any barriers of crossover.

Numerically, Intellectuals/Policy makers are always few (Brahmins), Enforcers are more (Kshatriyas), Economy sustainers are even more (Vaishyas), actual producers/worksmen are the largest (Shudras).



Dear MacaulayPutra, keep your commie venom with you. Your basic presumption "vedas are only reserved from Brahmins" is false, hence the rest of your argument, as usual, is bullshit.

One does NOT need to be a Brahmin (prerequisite) to read Vedas(olden times) or become a scholar(current times). On the contrary, One needs to read vedas, or become a scholar (prerequisite) to become a Brahmin.

Well I think both you and Singh sir are right on certain points. You are right about the first part. On the second part I am not too sure. Well I am not an expert on vedas. However my grandfather was a pujari in Nadia village(We are Maitras from East Bengal/bangladesh). I only know a few portions of scriptures. On the matter of non Brahmins reading vedas there is a controversy. It is written in the Manusmriti that if a Shudra recites/even hears the Vedas his tongue shall be cut off and molten lead would be poured into his ears. A king would be called non pious if he does not do so. However there are contradicting tales too which are anti casteist and promote unity. For example in Ramayana there is the tale of Shri Ramachandra eating berries which had been tasted by the low caste Shabari buri. Yet later we see a casteist tale of Ramchandra killing the low caste Shambak when he is meditating. The writer of the Ramayana tells us that the meditation of a low caste man would cause the death of Brahmin children. So this paradoxical tales are there in our scriptures. My personal opinion is that the caste system was quite flexible. However it got corrupted and took its present notorious manifestation that we see today. IMHO Indians should try to remove this caste system once and for all. This should be the goal of modern India.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Well I think both you and Singh sir are right on certain points. You are right about the first part. On the second part I am not too sure. Well I am not an expert on vedas. However my grandfather was a pujari in Nadia village(We are Maitras from East Bengal/bangladesh). I only know a few portions of scriptures. On the matter of non Brahmins reading vedas there is a controversy. It is written in the Manusmriti that if a Shudra recites/even hears the Vedas his tongue shall be cut off and molten lead would be poured into his ears. A king would be called non pious if he does not do so. However there are contradicting tales too which are anti casteist and promote unity. For example in Ramayana there is the tale of Shri Ramachandra eating berries which had been tasted by the low caste Shabari buri. Yet later we see a casteist tale of Ramchandra killing the low caste Shambak when he is meditating. The writer of the Ramayana tells us that the meditation of a low caste man would cause the death of Brahmin children. So this paradoxical tales are there in our scriptures. My personal opinion is that the caste system was quite flexible. However it got corrupted and took its present notorious manifestation that we see today. IMHO Indians should try to remove this caste system once and for all. This should be the goal of modern India.

The Rig Vedic people are meat eaters and used to drink soma rus (alchohol) during the rituals. There are even rituals related to horse sacrifice.

It is said that Vedas are knowledge from heavens or from cosmos, Rig vedic people composed all these revelations and formed what we call Rig Veda. Brahmins dominated Hindu society later.

Later when the society became Brahmanized they twisted the facts and some historical incidents, so that their domination will continue over the Hindu society. This was opposed by Jains and Buddists.

Some of the literature that were written during the so called Golden ages is rubbish.

Things are slowly moving towards the unification and equality off late in Hindu society though.

 

[arnabmit]

There were many lies introduced later in Manusmriti. 1794 by Sir William Jones. Out of a total of 2,685 verses, about 1,214 are authentic, the other 1,471 being later interpolations on the text.

Look at the contradictions to understand the systemic attempt to defame Hindu society.

Certain verses such as (III - 55, 56, 57, 59, 62) glorify the position of women, other verses (IX - 3, 17) seem to attack the position and freedom women have. The education of women is also discussed in the text. Certain interpretations of Verse (IX - 18) claim that it discourages women from reading Vedic scriptures. Verse (II - 240), however, allows women to read Vedic scriptures. Similar contradictory phrases are encountered in relation to child marriage in verses (IX - 94) and (IX - 90).

Anyway, Manusmriti is a Smriti, or a societal code, which are subject to regular reforms with time. They are not Shruti, which are cannonical religious/philosophical texts, like Vedas/Vedantas.

Well I think both you and Singh sir are right on certain points. You are right about the first part. On the second part I am not too sure. Well I am not an expert on vedas. However my grandfather was a pujari in Nadia village(We are Maitras from East Bengal/bangladesh). I only know a few portions of scriptures. On the matter of non Brahmins reading vedas there is a controversy. It is written in the Manusmriti that if a Shudra recites/even hears the Vedas his tongue shall be cut off and molten lead would be poured into his ears. A king would be called non pious if he does not do so. However there are contradicting tales too which are anti casteist and promote unity. For example in Ramayana there is the tale of Shri Ramachandra eating berries which had been tasted by the low caste Shabari buri. Yet later we see a casteist tale of Ramchandra killing the low caste Shambak when he is meditating. The writer of the Ramayana tells us that the meditation of a low caste man would cause the death of Brahmin children. So this paradoxical tales are there in our scriptures. My personal opinion is that the caste system was quite flexible. However it got corrupted and took its present notorious manifestation that we see today. IMHO Indians should try to remove this caste system once and for all. This should be the goal of modern India.

 

[Energon]

There were many lies introduced later in Manusmriti. 1794 by Sir William Jones. Out of a total of 2,685 verses, about 1,214 are authentic, the other 1,471 being later interpolations on the text.

Look at the contradictions to understand the systemic attempt to defame Hindu society.

Certain verses such as (III - 55, 56, 57, 59, 62) glorify the position of women, other verses (IX - 3, 17) seem to attack the position and freedom women have. The education of women is also discussed in the text. Certain interpretations of Verse (IX - 18) claim that it discourages women from reading Vedic scriptures. Verse (II - 240), however, allows women to read Vedic scriptures. Similar contradictory phrases are encountered in relation to child marriage in verses (IX - 94) and (IX - 90).

Anyway, Manusmriti is a Smriti, or a societal code, which are subject to regular reforms with time. They are not Shruti, which are cannonical religious/philosophical texts, like Vedas/Vedantas.

Oh I was not aware of this. Are you saying the original texts of the manusmriti were not misogynistic?

 

[Peter]

Oh I was not aware of this. Are you saying the original texts of the manusmriti were not misogynistic?

All ancient holy scriptures are misogynistic be it the Bible,Koran,Veda or Torah. Ancient civilizations were male dominated societies, so you should not expect anything better. However I would like to point out that India does have many examples of strong women who became queens and poets. We even revere Goddesses like Lakhi,Saraswati,Durga etc. FYI Durga Puja is the most pompous festival in east India.

 

[Energon]

All ancient holy scriptures are misogynistic be it the Bible,Koran,Veda or Torah. Ancient civilizations were male dominated societies, so you should not expect anything better. However I would like to point out that India does have many examples of strong women who became queens and poets. We even revere Goddesses like Lakhi,Saraswati,Durga etc. FYI Durga Puja is the most pompous festival in east India.

True, however I was always under the impression that the Manu smriti was one of the defining scripture distinctly highlighting the (lower) status of women in Hindu Society. I'm just trying to get a sense of how much of this was original and how much of it was doctored.

 

[hit&run]

Oh I was not aware of this. Are you saying the original texts of the manusmriti were not misogynistic?

What your one liner has to do with topic in hand ?

 

[Eesh]

Oh I was not aware of this. Are you saying the original texts of the manusmriti were not misogynistic?

Is it 100% mysogynic? Looks like you never purused it properly first hand. Yes, to an extent it is mysogynic, but far, far less compared to its contemporary laws.

Which laws anywhere in world, even now, say that visibly pregnant women can travel FREE?

Manu protects womens' privacy to the extent which will be enviable even today. For exam: A Anyone who intrudes on a woman's privacy is to be punished. And definition of privacy is not narrow. It is explicitly defined the moments when she is sleeping, bathing, doing her make up, changing clothes, nursing her baby, staring at her belly during pregnancy, relieving, sitting on her bed, touching the clothes she is wearing.

When did some one think of : Ladies First? Care to tell?

2. 138. Way must be made for a man in a carriage, for one who is above ninety years old, for one diseased, for the carrier of a burden, for a woman, for a Snataka, for the king, and for a bridegroom.


Touching the dress of Draupadi was one of the major cause of Mahabharat. Better read Manu's laws yourself.

 

[Singh]

That's how the Verna system works, Collective-Qualitatively equal, Quantitatively unequal, without any barriers of crossover.

Numerically, Intellectuals/Policy makers are always few (Brahmins), Enforcers are more (Kshatriyas), Economy sustainers are even more (Vaishyas), actual producers/worksmen are the largest (Shudras).

Dear MacaulayPutra, keep your commie venom with you. Your basic presumption "vedas are only reserved from Brahmins" is false, hence the rest of your argument, as usual, is bullshit.

One does NOT need to be a Brahmin (prerequisite) to read Vedas(olden times) or become a scholar(current times). On the contrary, One needs to read vedas, or become a scholar (prerequisite) to become a Brahmin.

You have convinced me Caste system is based only on your profession. It has been corrupted by Islamists/Christians/Commies.

PS: Bangali calling a Delhite commie ?

 

[Singh]

The Rig Vedic people are meat eaters and used to drink soma rus (alchohol) during the rituals. There are even rituals related to horse sacrifice.

You are wrong re: eating meat and soma rus. Were they eating meat for gratifying the tongue, or drinking alcohol to get high ? Such simple mistakes are common when following literal meaning.

Also refer to all the asava and arishta of ayurveda.

It is said that Vedas are knowledge from heavens or from cosmos, Rig vedic people composed all these revelations and formed what we call Rig Veda. Brahmins dominated Hindu society later.

Later when the society became Brahmanized they twisted the facts and some historical incidents, so that their domination will continue over the Hindu society. This was opposed by Jains and Buddists.

Some of the literature that were written during the so called Golden ages is rubbish.

You are right regarding corruption of some scriptures.

Problem is simple, in earlier times sons followed their fathers professions. So Caste system became hereditary. Even today with endless job opportunities in a globalized world, many Indians follow their family professions.


Also to others re: Caste system


The confusion occurs when you use, say Brahmin to refer to someone who is either: an enlightened being, a son of a Brahmin, or an "intellectual", or one who is a "priest". Can you equate these four ? I can't.
And what authority do you have to classify people ? Should others agree with you, for what ?

Now onto the biggest issue: in the entire Indian body of literature, caste elevation has only occurred a handful of times and that too with great difficulty involving years of penance and prayers. The scriptures which say that caste is to be based on profession, also say that elevation occurs rarely.

But what's so special about being an upper or lower caste ?

If its your actions that determine your caste system, then keep on doing what is right without really caring for tags.

Since no one caste or religion has monopoly over "enlightenment", "moksha" etc. And in todays' world no one caste or religion has monopoly over power, wealth, knowledge, lands etc.; caste system kinda sorta loses its relevance (at least the hereditary kind)

Rather than trying to reinvent something which is fundamentally broken, one should use it more constructively.

How to use it constructively ? If you want to follow caste system, see which caste you belong to and use those applicable injunctions for yourself.

Don't try to preach onto others. That's the reason caste system became dysfunction in the first place.

Be the change.

==

Things are slowly moving towards the unification and equality off late in Hindu society though.

Mankind ought to move slowly towards unification and equality.

 

[Srinivas_K]

You are wrong re: eating meat and soma rus. Were they eating meat for gratifying the tongue, or drinking alcohol to get high ? Such simple mistakes are common when following literal meaning.

You should read what I have written in my post clearly.

I have said Rig Vedic people ate meat of sacrificed animal as well as soma rus as a part of ritual. They even worshipped soma a plant from where alchohol is derived , as a GOD.

Remaining part of your post you are agreeing with me.

You are right regarding corruption of some scriptures.

Problem is simple, in earlier times sons followed their fathers professions. So Caste system became hereditary. Even today with endless job opportunities in a globalized world, many Indians follow their family professions.


Also to others re: Caste system


The confusion occurs when you use, say Brahmin to refer to someone who is either: an enlightened being, a son of a Brahmin, or an "intellectual", or one who is a "priest". Can you equate these four ? I can't.
And what authority do you have to classify people ? Should others agree with you, for what ?

Now onto the biggest issue: in the entire Indian body of literature, caste elevation has only occurred a handful of times and that too with great difficulty involving years of penance and prayers. The scriptures which say that caste is to be based on profession, also say that elevation occurs rarely.

But what's so special about being an upper or lower caste ?

If its your actions that determine your caste system, then keep on doing what is right without really caring for tags.

Since no one caste or religion has monopoly over "enlightenment", "moksha" etc. And in todays' world no one caste or religion has monopoly over power, wealth, knowledge, lands etc.; caste system kinda sorta loses its relevance (at least the hereditary kind)

Rather than trying to reinvent something which is fundamentally broken, one should use it more constructively.

How to use it constructively ? If you want to follow caste system, see which caste you belong to and use those applicable injunctions for yourself.

Don't try to preach onto others. That's the reason caste system became dysfunction in the first place.

Be the change.

==



Mankind ought to move slowly towards unification and equality.

 

[Ray]

Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die!

 

[arnabmit]

No, they were not.

Myriad hymns of the Vedic era bear testimony to the wisdom of contemporary women and names of 27 women-seers emerge from them.

Vedic India proudly celebrated and sometimes worshiped the knowledge, intelligence and power of women.

Ghosha: Daughter of Kakshivat, composer of hymns of ancient Hindu scriptures, Ghosha has a few hymns and verses, assigned to her name.

Lopamudra: She was a disciple of sage Agasthya and given as a daughter to the King of Vidarbha. Rig Veda testifies to her great intelligence.

Maitreyi: The Rig Veda contains about one thousand hymns, of which about 10 are accredited to Maitreyi, the woman seer and philosopher.

Gargi: She was a Vedic prophetess and daughter of sage Vachaknu. She composed several hymns that questioned the origin of all existence

Oh I was not aware of this. Are you saying the original texts of the manusmriti were not misogynistic?

 

[arnabmit]

No, Manusmriti was not. They were doctored later. Read previous post.

All ancient holy scriptures are misogynistic be it the Bible,Koran,Veda or Torah. Ancient civilizations were male dominated societies, so you should not expect anything better. However I would like to point out that India does have many examples of strong women who became queens and poets. We even revere Goddesses like Lakhi,Saraswati,Durga etc. FYI Durga Puja is the most pompous festival in east India.