Mirage 2000 fighter plane crashes in MP, pilots safe.

[Blackwater]

Thank God we have saved few million $$$$$ of refurbishment, with this plane gone and another gone few weeks ago..


Hope we left with some mirages for Refab programme

 

[cir]

Flying coffin of a new breed in the making？

 

[Blackwater]

Flying coffin of a new breed in the making？

no its flying refurbish coffin

 

[arya]

well buy some TOY fighter planes for IAF

i hope you know that china is increasing there defence budget while we are reducing .

we have all thing on papers

 

[Cola]

...and Dassault experts...

What's that?

Some thing is terribly wrong

Welcome to the wonderful world of French technology.

On a serious note, glad your boys are fine.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I smell sabot-ash, Are`t they were suppose to ground all the jets until there is full checkup..

 

[fulcrum]

Someone suggested that Mirage Trainers are not part of the upgrade. This is wrong. Even 2 seat trainers, are also slated to be upgraded.


Found an informative post in another forum.

"Looks like 10 Mirage-2000 have crashed since its induction. 49 Mirages acquired in the 1980's + 10 Mirages in 2007 = 59 total

Currently only 51 was present for the upgrade. So 8 crashed. But the new crash today & a few days before makes the total crashes to 10.

The best aircraft to compare with the Mirage safety record is the MiG-29's safety record because they both were inducted side by side simultaneously.

70 MiG-29's acquired in the 80's + 10 MiG-29s in the 90's = 80 Total

Of which 7 are MiG-29UB variant which is only a training aircraft. It has no radar and so it cannot be used as a BVR fighter. So there are a total of 73 Single seat MiG-29s.
Of the 73, 63 was signed to be upgraded to UPG/SMT standard. So 10 have crashed. However after the deal was signed 2 MiG-29s have crashed. So the number is 61 MiG-29s in the IAF inventory. So 12 crashes in total.

Mirage-2000
49 + 10 - 10 = 49 (crash % = 17%)

MiG-29
73 - 12 = 61 (crash % = 16%)

So Mirage-2000's safely record is very slightly poorer than MiG-29's. Just 1%. However that's not all we should take into consideration. Mirage-2000 is a single engined fighter so it's more risky and prone to crashes than a twin engined MiG-29. French/Western quality over soviet designs explains that. Or does it? Mirage-2000 was and still is the pampered lady of the IAF. They guard her like she is a princess. Mirage-2000 is based in Gwalior far far away from the dangers of the front line bases in the border. Distance from Gwalior to the Pakistani border is close to 500kms. While All the IAF MiG-29s are based in Adampur which is a little over 50 miles from the Border! MiG-29s will have to perform more routine Air patrol sorties and hence more flying time, more take-offs and landings, contributing to more accidents. Also the 10 second hand mirages are newer bought in 2007(I bet all the 10 crashed are from the previous 49 mirages batch).So it's not that simple comparing the fighters safety record.

Not really a point about crashes but, a Mirage-2000, although a single engined fighter, costed us 25 million dollars back in the 1980s. And the capitalist french accepted no less than precious foreign exchange back then. However MiG-29 costed us, both in 1980s and the 90's, only 11 million dollars. That too we paid part of the amount in Indian Rupees, tea, wheat and other Agricultural produce, which the soviets accepted as a gesture of friendship. But then again, it isn't so simple because a Mirage is maintenance friendly compared to a MiG-29, and the cost of maintenance of a twin engined fighter is obviously more than a single engines one. However again, to throw a spanner into the logic before you choose which one is better, the spare parts of French Mirage-2000 are extremely costly compared to the MiG-29.

In the end, both fighters have their own advantages and disadvantages, and comparing is tough. But as of now, Mirage are more prone to crashes than the MiG-29."

 

[fulcrum]

I hope all IAF fighters are twin engined in the future(maybe that's one of the reasons why IAF is queasy about Tejas). Both the Mirage crashes are due to engine failure. There was a news report that SU-30 had several engine failure incidents, but the second engine made sure the plane landed safely.

You can bet the Upgrade cost will come down now. 2 planes less to upgrade.

Edit: Found it-


PM to raise Su-30 MKI engine failure with Russia
New Delhi, December 16, 2011

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is expected to red-flag serviceability, product support and pending upgrade of India's frontline Su-30 MKI multi-role fighter with President Dmitry Medvedev at the annual summit meeting on Friday in Russia.

Top government sources said that Air Headquarters has urgently requested the Prime Minister to raise the issue of engine serviceability with his Russian counterpart after few incidents of engine failures have occurred in the long range twin-engine fighter. The Su-30 MKI is powered AL-31 FP engine, whose variant also powers the Chinese Su-30 MKK fighter.

While the Indian Air Force is tight-lipped about the issue and would like to play it down, the top brass has conveyed to government that "shaft bearing failures" have occurred in some engines. "In peacetime, the fighter can land on the other engine but this can be a life and death situation in adverse conditions, said a senior official. India to provide new nuclear reactor site for Russia

Sources said that IAF had conveyed to the Russian manufacturer of Su-30 MKI that it needed to make design changes to prevent any future engine failures. However, the manufacturer raised objections to the lubricants used by the IAF in the Su-30 MKI engine. But after it was proved that the engine was still failing despite the use of oil recommended by the manufacturer, the IAF decide to escalate the matter to the government level. Since it was inducted in 1997, Su-30 MKI has performed well with IAF despite three crashes, none of which have been attributed to engine failures[Thank god for the other engine].

The other issue of concern is the pending upgrade for Su-30MKI fighters, which have now been in IAF service for over eight years. While the Air Headquarters wants the manufacturer to upgrade avionics and weapon platforms, the matter is stuck not on technical but on the commercial aspects as the original manufacturer is bargaining hard for better price.


http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-...ine-failures-with-Russia/Article1-783035.aspx

 

[Poseidon]

Only 8 mirages including the last two have crashed.2 more were lost due to a hangar collapse in Gwalior in 1989.
Hangar Roof Collapses, Damages 8 India Jets - Los Angeles Times

@Fulcrum IAF has atleast 68 MiG-29's not 61.

 

[fulcrum]

@Poseidon: I'm aware of that. The above post I quoted also says the same(61B + 7UB). s/he didn't include the UBs in the % calculation but did mention the 7 non-BVR capable & non-slated for upgrade, UBs.

----------

Another example of twin engine safety, straight from the horse's mouth- http://indianairforce.nic.in/fsmagazines/Jun10.pdf

"ON 24 Aug 09, Sqn Ldr SV Saharan(25065-T) F(P) was authorised to fly a two
aircraft PI mission on a MiG-29 aircraft. During rejoin, the pilot realised that
the left engine RPM did not reduce below 84% with throttle at idle. He decided to
switch off the engine and carry out a single engine recovery. While switching off
the HP cock of the engine, RPM dropped to idle and the engine did not switch off.
Despite this, Sqn Ldr Saharan carried out a single engine landing with the RH engine
(LH engine producing idle power). Subsequently, the pilot cleared off the runway
and switched off the right engine. The afflicted engine was switched off by Sqn Ldr
P Bajpai AE(M) SEO manually on ground once the aircraft came to a stop."

 

[p2prada]

Disappointing news.

The crash rate of the Mirage-2000 is more or less the same as the Mig-29 but lower than the PAF F-16. The PAF crash rate for the F-16 is higher than both Mig-29 and Mirage-2000.

In ascending order;
Mig-29: A fleet of 80 with 12 losses. Crash rate is at 15%.

Mirage-2000: A fleet of 59 with 10 losses. Crash rate is at 17%.

PAF F-16: A fleet of 40 with 10 losses. Crash rate is at 25%.
The 40 aircraft considered are the ones delivered to them in the 80s. All F-16 crashes are for the Block 15s. Whatever they have now were recently received by PAF. Even the last crash in 2009 was a Block 15.

A rather impressive statistic for IAF considering our Mig-29s had supplies issues after the dissolution of the SU.

Anyway the low crash rate for the MKI is the most impressive. With 3 crashes and a current strength of ~150MKIs, we can say the crash rate is at 2-3%. But the aircraft are relatively new, so the crash rate is acceptable.

 

[Tolaha]

We knew the problem years ago. The fleet was under threat of grounding if the upgrade wasn't signed. It appears the lack of maintenance is even worse than reported.

When Russian planes fall, its because they are junk. When French ones fail, its the maintenance at fault!

 

[ace009]

Someone suggested that Mirage Trainers are not part of the upgrade. This is wrong. Even 2 seat trainers, are also slated to be upgraded.


Found an informative post in another forum.

"Looks like 10 Mirage-2000 have crashed since its induction. 49 Mirages acquired in the 1980's + 10 Mirages in 2007 = 59 total

Currently only 51 was present for the upgrade. So 8 crashed. But the new crash today & a few days before makes the total crashes to 10.

The best aircraft to compare with the Mirage safety record is the MiG-29's safety record because they both were inducted side by side simultaneously.

70 MiG-29's acquired in the 80's + 10 MiG-29s in the 90's = 80 Total

Of which 7 are MiG-29UB variant which is only a training aircraft. It has no radar and so it cannot be used as a BVR fighter. So there are a total of 73 Single seat MiG-29s.
Of the 73, 63 was signed to be upgraded to UPG/SMT standard. So 10 have crashed. However after the deal was signed 2 MiG-29s have crashed. So the number is 61 MiG-29s in the IAF inventory. So 12 crashes in total.

Mirage-2000
49 + 10 - 10 = 49 (crash % = 17%)

MiG-29
73 - 12 = 61 (crash % = 16%)

So Mirage-2000's safely record is very slightly poorer than MiG-29's. Just 1%. However that's not all we should take into consideration. Mirage-2000 is a single engined fighter so it's more risky and prone to crashes than a twin engined MiG-29. French/Western quality over soviet designs explains that. Or does it? Mirage-2000 was and still is the pampered lady of the IAF. They guard her like she is a princess. Mirage-2000 is based in Gwalior far far away from the dangers of the front line bases in the border. Distance from Gwalior to the Pakistani border is close to 500kms. While All the IAF MiG-29s are based in Adampur which is a little over 50 miles from the Border! MiG-29s will have to perform more routine Air patrol sorties and hence more flying time, more take-offs and landings, contributing to more accidents. Also the 10 second hand mirages are newer bought in 2007(I bet all the 10 crashed are from the previous 49 mirages batch).So it's not that simple comparing the fighters safety record.

Not really a point about crashes but, a Mirage-2000, although a single engined fighter, costed us 25 million dollars back in the 1980s. And the capitalist french accepted no less than precious foreign exchange back then. However MiG-29 costed us, both in 1980s and the 90's, only 11 million dollars. That too we paid part of the amount in Indian Rupees, tea, wheat and other Agricultural produce, which the soviets accepted as a gesture of friendship. But then again, it isn't so simple because a Mirage is maintenance friendly compared to a MiG-29, and the cost of maintenance of a twin engined fighter is obviously more than a single engines one. However again, to throw a spanner into the logic before you choose which one is better, the spare parts of French Mirage-2000 are extremely costly compared to the MiG-29.

In the end, both fighters have their own advantages and disadvantages, and comparing is tough. But as of now, Mirage are more prone to crashes than the MiG-29."

I do like some of the analysis in this post. But I have a few pointers to add as to what affects the crash/ survivability of an aircraft in peacetime.

1. The local environment of the aircrafts matter - as do the standards of their storage and maintenance.
2. The flight hours/ year and the pilot training standards matter.
3. The roles of the aircrafts (interceptor, swing-role, air-support, patrol etc) matter.

Add to that the amount of combat sorties performed by an aircraft. one hour of combat sortie is considered equivalent to 2-3 hours of peacetime sortie. One real close combat encounter is equivalent to ~20 hours of peacetime sortie.

I know that the Mirages in IAF saw real action during Kargil, am not sure about the Mig-29s. Both of them probably were on combat. On the other hand, the Fulcrums are designed as interceptors and probably used as patrols - i.e. more combat sorties.

Considering the problems faced with supplies and soviet build quality, it is indeed commendable that the IAF MiG-29s have this good survivability rates. Also, considering the amount of actual action seen by the Mirages during Kargil, over and above the parts procurement problems post 1998 - it is also quite great to see how well the Mirages have done in IAF.

 

[addiction]

IAF Mirage jet crashes, fleet grounded temporarily

NEW DELHI: A Mirage-2000 combat jet of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed in Rajasthan on Monday but the two pilots safely bailed out. As a result, the entire 49-plane fleet has been grounded till preliminary checks are complete, an officer said.

The trainer version of aircraft had taken off from the Gwalior air base in Madhya Pradesh on a routine sortie. It crashed near Sawai Madhopur, about 60 km southeast of Rajasthan capital Jaipur, the officer said.

"The crash was reported around 12.30 p.m. No casualties have been reported on the ground and rescue teams have rushed to the crash spot for the two pilots. Further details on the pilot's condition will be known after the team reaches them," the officer said.

"The pilots, Squadron Leader Raj and Flight Lieutenant Kanav, who got airborne from Gwalior, ejected safely. There is no reported damage to civil property or life. A court of inquiry has been ordered to investigate the cause of the accident," defence ministry spokesperson said in a statement.

This is the second Mirage-2000 crash in 10 days. Another twin-seater Mirage-2000 jet had crashed in Madhya Pradesh Feb 24, but in this case too, both pilots, one of whom was a three-star officer, had ejected in time.

"The IAF has ordered preliminary checks on the entire fleet of Mirages. They will not fly temporarily till the checks are completed," another officer said.

"This is the standard operating procedure... this happened when the Mirage crashed on Feb 24 also. After the checks, the fleet's flying will resume," the officer added.

In July last year, India had signed a $2.4-billion contract for upgrading the 51 Mirage-2000s in in the IAF fleet. The first two planes are already in France while the remaining planes will be upgraded by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Since then, two of the planes from the 51-aircraft fleet have crashed.

India has a fleet of about 600 combat planes in its fleet, comprising 35 squadrons of Sukhois, MiG-29s, Mirage-2000s, Jaguars, MiG-27s and MiG-21s, in a judicious mix of ageing and modern aircraft.

IAF Mirage jet crashes, fleet grounded temporarily - The Economic Times

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They were suppose to ground the fleet when this happened first..

 

[Armand2REP]

When Russian planes fall, its because they are junk. When French ones fail, its the maintenance at fault!

You really want to compare the flight record of French planes to Russia? Please do... I would love to hear that argument.

 

[Armand2REP]

Second safe-to-fly Mirage combat aircraft crashes after jet engine failure

A second Mirage 2000 combat jet of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed on Monday, only 10 days after the first incident, unsettling the relatively good flight safety record of the aircraft in service for more than three decades.
Squadron Leader P. Raj and Flight Lieutenant Kanav had taken off from the Gwalior airbase on a training sortie in the afternoon but were soon forced to eject after an engine flameout while flying over Baman Bass village, 100km from Jaipur in Rajasthan.
The two survived the crash. The two belonged to the same No. 1 squadron based in Gwalior, from where Air Marshal Anil Chopra and Wing Commander Ram Kumar had taken off in a Mirage 2000 on February 24 but crashed soon after.

An IAF personnel inspects the Mirage 2000 engine near Baman Bass village, Rajasthan
Air Marshal Chopra, who heads personnel department in the air headquarter, was the senior-most officer to have ejected in the IAF.
Wing Commander Kumar is the commanding officer of the squadron. The IAF is looking into the problem of engine flameout and the entire fleet was being inspected considering the fact that the two incidents have taken place within a span of 10 days.
Incidentally, both the crashed aircraft were assembled by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Questions have been raised in the past about the quality assurance of HAL's work.
The engine of the aircraft failed when it was flying at 16,000ft. Even the other aircraft that crashed last year was assembled by HAL.

Indian Air Force's Mirage 2000 fleet had a good flight safety record
Defence minister A.K. Antony had reviewed the flight safety aspects and a directive was given to other stakeholders, such as the HAL, to strictly follow IAF's instructions on maintenance of the aircraft.
IAF spokesperson Squadron Leader Priya Joshi told Mail Today the Mirage fleet has not been grounded. The IAF has three squadrons of Mirage 2000s, all based in Gwalior.
The aircraft has an impressive flight safety record as only five crashes have been reported before the two accidents this year. The IAF has recently awarded a contract to France for upgradation of 51 of these multi-role, single- engine fighters.

Engines, the heart of an aircraft
After the upgradation, the aircraft will go for a complete makeover, keeping it flying for the next three decades. Pilots swear by the French fighter and the IAF has chosen another Dassault-manufactured fighter, the Rafale, to replace its ageing MiG-21s.
Mirage 2000 has the crucial role of delivering India's N-weapons. The IAF has been struggling with the problem of training its pilots but the recent accidents have been caused by technical failures.
It underscores the fact that most of the aircraft are ageing, requiring much more rigorous maintenance schedules to keep them flightworthy.


Read more: Second safe-to-fly Mirage combat aircraft crashes after jet engine failure | Mail Online

 

[Tronic]

You really want to compare the flight record of French planes to Russia? Please do... I would love to hear that argument.

He merely pointed out your hypocrisy.

Flights records of Russian planes differ simply because Russian planes are operated by a MUCH larger pool of countries than French planes, a lot of whom don't have good maintenance standards. To add to that, most of the Russian aircraft in operation are MUCH older than the French ones in operation.

So suck up that bloating ego of yours, a large part of which is thanks to the IAF saving the quickly sinking Dassault, and avoid pointless pissing contests.

 

[StealthSniper]

We have the money, we have the need, we have the talented personnel, but why are we flying old planes, and why such a long delay in commissioning new aircraft.


India has a very long way to go I'm afraid.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Regarding French Aircraft, French aircraft designers pressed in quality of the product and they make every thing taken in the account for Example Overhaul of MIR-2000 engine takes One Hour where as Russian MIG-21 take no less than 6-12 hours, Technically MIR-2000 are better engineered yet easy to operate and User friendly not only for Pilots but also Ground maintenance crew..

Regarding Russian Aircraft, IAF is skilled in dealing with Russian hardware and if there are crashes its mostly cause of faulty spare purchased from east block countries..



Aircraft does crash in peace time, MIR-2000 did crash but the second crash is fault of IAF brass in the field there, They were suppose to ground all fighter after the first crash..