Mil Mi-26T2 Halo vs Boeing CH47F Chinook

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Poseidon, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. noob101

    noob101 Regular Member

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    Another aspect that is mentioned but not discussed about is how this order will effect the civilian sector.... mi 26 files as many sorties for civilian roles as it does for the military (I don't mean this literally), are there any private sector companies in India that can take up this job once they are retired?

    Im glad the IAF is going with the Americans on this, at the least it will make the Russians to get their act together.....

    To all of those who say the Mi 26 can lift much heavier loads I say... It wont lift anything unless the machines are properly serviced and there is a good suply of spares, historically its been difficult to keep them in working order...
     
  2. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    No debate about the load carrying capacity, the Mi26 trumps Chinook, I was only showing the Chinook carrying ability of the Chinook since you pointed out the same ability of the Mi26.

    But I think Chinook will serve the IAF better from a regular operational perspective than the Mi26 (which is purely a transport rotorcraft). Overall, it is simply a better heavy rotorcraft. Of course the IAF may have peculiar requirements unlike the regular requirements of NATO members, but I understand they already have several Mi26 in inventory...
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
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  3. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Mil-26 has spare problems, and when it comes to maintenance, I have no reason to believe Chinook will require less maintenance. Chinook's advantage lies with its twin rotor system, but other than that, I don't see too many other advantages.

    There are certain scenarios where one just cannot do without the Mil-26:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    If existing IAF Mi26 have spares problem what makes you think that future orders of the same aircraft won't have the same problem?

    I think the IAF can just upgrade/modernise their existing Mi26 fleet for special heavy lift duties while the Chinook will take the brunt of full on operational troop and equipment transport in and out of their theater of ops and for special ops.
     
  5. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    Pictures can deceive...in this era of Photoshops...:lol:

    Reliabilty is a very subjective term...not objective and it depends on how the object is maintained too..
     
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  6. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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  7. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I'd rather they were license produced in India. Russia's problem with supplies are apolotical, unlike the US, that has a habit of putting sanctions. What makes you think US spare supplies will be more reliable than Russia's?

    What kind of equipment? There are some that the Chinook cannot airlift.
     
  8. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    If there's really a need for specialised loads then that's where the existing (or modernised) Mi26 fleet will come in. But I doubt if these requirement for extra heavy load will be regular.
     
  9. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Mi-26 helicopter Flight of India Celebrates 26th Anniversary

    New Delhi: April, 05, 2012

    The Mil-26 helicopter is the biggest, largest and heaviest helicopter in the world. It can carry 20 tons off payload either internally or externally. This helicopter can carry 82 fully equipped assault troops. Also it can be used as flying ambulance and in this role it can carry 60 lying casualties. It is capable of launching at altitude and has been pasted till DBO i.e. 16500 ft. It can be used for civil engineering building of roads bridges and building.

    The crest of this unit has not been approved. However, the matter has been taken up with HQ WAC.

    It is operated by No.126 Helicopter Flight. This is relatively a very young unit and has not participated in any operations since its inception. In India, this helicopter has carried out extensive flood relief operations Ex-Tezpur in Jan 89. It also did a commendable job by laying out the roads in Anini sector in the east. Anini sector was earlier totally air maintained. Being a helicopter flight, it can form time to time be called upon to carry out much casualty evacuation, aid to civil power etc.

    Only four Mi-26s are serving with the Flight. Z2896, Z2897, Z3075 and Z3076.

    126 Helicopter flight, christened ‘Featherweights’ was raised at Chandigarh on 15 May 1986.The unit was established to fly the Mi-26 helicopter, the largest and heaviest helicopter in the world, a very formidable machine capable of versatile roles. The flight lives by the motto ‘Aaptsu Mitram’ which means a friend who is always around to help when tragedy strikes. The ‘Bhim’ of the Indian Airforce has till date flown almost 8000 hours carrying 13559 tons of load.

    The flight has the unique distinction of operating the world’s heaviest helicopter in the highest and coldest battlefield in the world, the Siachen Glacier. The flight has undertaken flood relief operations in different parts of the country as well as relief operations during the Orissa Supercyclone of 1999. The flight played a major role in avoiding a Bhopal like gas tragedy at Paradeep Phosphates Ltd where the Ammonia gas tanks needed to be cooled at the earliest to prevent the gas from leaking out. The flight airlifted heavy duty generators which were used to cool the storage tanks thus avoiding a major disaster. The flight was also actively involved in the Kargil war wherein it performed numerous missions by day and night.

    Another unique feature of the Mi-26 helicopter is its ability to carry very heavy (weighing upto 20 tons) and odd shaped loads slung under its belly. The flight has played a major role by airlifting various aircraft – fighters, helicopters and even a civilian passenger plane. Featherweights have played another big role in nation building by transporting heavy loads of the Konkan Railways Corporation Ltd which was entrusted with the task of laying the railway line between Jammu and Banihal. The flight also regularly undertakes air maintenance sorties to the highest Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) at an elevation of 15,500 feet above mean sea level. The flight was instrumental in making the ALG at DBO fit for use by the fixed wing transport aircraft by airlifting heavy machinery like dozers and rollers to DBO.

    The flight also played an important role in the revival and reopening of Vijaynagar ALG in the North Eastern state of Arunachal Pradesh. All sorts of heavy machinery and construction material were transported in the Mi-26 to make the ALG fit for landing. The flight has been closely associated with various projects of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The Mi-26 has time and again been called upon to lead various helicopter formations on occasions like the Air Force Day parade, Republic day parade and Presidents fleet review.

    The flight at present is commanded by Group Captain JVS Guron VM. As the flight completes 25 years of exceptional service, the air warriors of 126 HF look forward to continue the good work of nation building.

    :: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::
     
  10. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    We will always need Mil-26. Chinooks can be very useful in some situations, but if we have to quickly airlift heavy armour or large amounts of supplies, or rescue people or perform troop insertion en masse, Mil-26 is the one.

    Conclusion: We need both!

    Anyway, enjoy!

     
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  11. noob101

    noob101 Regular Member

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    it is impratical and very expensive to produce spares for the 3 mi 26 that the IAF operates, even if the bid goes to Mi 26 it is still very very expensive to licence produce spares for the 15 machines....

    I don't think there is much life left in the airframes for any kind of modernization, the youngest ones are 22 years old... I dont think there is any point in wasting money on upgrading them... better of getting new ones...
     
  12. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Mil-26 is the heaviest production helicopter in the world. The heaviest helicopter in the world is Mil V-12:

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    If we can license produce Sukhoi-39MKI, why not Mil-26? Now, less numbers in service is a genuine question, and I agree, it might not be practical. However, what if we have to airlift heavy equipment, armour or troops in case of emergencies? In other words, transporting people might be accomplished by multiple sorties by Chinook, but what about heavy equipment? The only way would be to dismantle them, lift them part by part and then re-assemble them, just like India reassembled Stuart tanks in the mountains of Kashmir in the 1948 Indo-Pak War.
     
  14. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    ^^ If anything, we should have gone for a licensed production of Mil Mi-17 choppers..easily the finest flying machine in its class.

    Alas, national interests and foresight is not even remotely present in most of our netas and babus and plus, troop/trash carriers are not as glamorous as combat jets in some eyes.
     
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  15. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    ^^

    And I was just about to mention that. You read my mind. Yes, we need to get Mil into India, just like UralAZ and KamAZ have started making stuff in India. We need to keep HAL out of this if they are pre-occupied with other hi-tech stuff.
     
  16. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Any report on how the helicopters on trial have done in the High Altitude?

    Mi 26 that we have was a bit of a lemon out there. Spare was also a great problem.
     
  17. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    Digital cockpit, 2-crew requirement to fly, larger capacity than Chinook.....

    Don't see how Mi-26T can't win.

    Russia is leading in two helicopter areas: the Mi-26T and Ka-226T.
     
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  18. noob101

    noob101 Regular Member

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    What you are saying makes a lot of sense and I agree with you about the requirement for the movement of equipment or troops.... here is what I am saying

    1) Pictures of mi 26 lifting a Chinook make a point that it can life heavy things... but is there such a requirement? And the answer is no, thats the reason why the IAF has only 3 mi 26, plus like you said they are going to be necessary during time of war then why was it they had only 50 hrs combined flight time during the Kargil war, also in peace time they only manage to get about 20 hours per month , either this means they are difficult to maintain but also the most of the things they do are done by other helos as well...

    2) If brute strength is a requirement then why not ask the Russians to build the Mil V12, that can seat at least 200 soilders and lift 2 Chinooks at the same time.... the answer is no because the IAF is looking for a tactical transport helo not the helo that can just lift the most weight

    3) 98% of missions can be done by the Chinook, only the rare missions that require large cargo area cant be done... the only difference is cabin space for example a Chinook can't load a BMP inside but a Mi 26 can

    4) maintenance and spares, no need for me to explain this

    I think people are reading too much into the picture where an Mi-26 lift a CH-47, we Indians are obsessed with statistics and naturally would like a squadron of the largest helo in the world but we need to look at the requirements of the IAF...

    on your point about production line , yes we can set up a production line for Mi 26 in India.. we can also set up a production line for c17, c130 & P8I but the problem is when the air craft order is low it will make the price ridicules, secondly it would take a lot longer to set up a production line and deliveries would be delayed... I agree with mayfair that we should have setup a production line for Mi-17 in India but that should have been done way back in 1980's not now
     
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  19. Sancho

    Sancho Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes, but this competition is to replace them, either with Chinooks or newer versions of Mi 26. The latter has the performance and experience advantage, while the earlier comes with advantages in maintenance and after sale support.


    As you know, I disagree with you on Ka 226, but the only problem of Mi 26T2 to win the competition is, if spare supply and after sale support. Otherwise the Chinook has no real advantage in the heavy lift role, the Sikorsky Ch53 would have been the better competitior for the Mi 26.
    However, the issues about spare supply in the past were also caused by the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia now has improved their industries and as we can see at MKI or the increased Mi 17 order, IAFs seems not to see a bigger problem anymore. They still are not at a level as western manufacturers of course, but therefor offer several other advantages. If IAF is convinced that the Mi 26T2 can be offered with good spare supply, it has good chances to win this.
     
  20. Adux

    Adux Senior Member Senior Member

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    SImple, IAF knows the Mi-26, it is rightly called a Hanger Queen, it has a tractor engine disguised as a helicopter engine, it is not reliable. Nor is it tatical or as manoverable as the Chinook.
     

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