MiG 21s to be phased out from 2014

[Zebra]

IMHO, Brahmos is too large to be put on an indoor bay of the FGFA - which means the only way it can fit on FGFA is on external pylons, increasing the RCS SIGNIFICANTLY. For a $100 million 5th gen stealth aircraft to carry Brahmos for strike mission, thereby reducing it's RCS and exposing itself to enemy fire is not a smart idea. I sincerely hope that IAF does not use the FGFA to carry Brahmos.
Having said that, LCA is too small to carry Brahmos and deliver it to enemy sites - Nirbhay maybe. Which means till the AMCA comes into operation, the best bet, apart from the MKI is the MMRCA to carry Brahmos and Nirbhay. Or maybe the "upgraded" Mirages can carry Brahmos and Nirbhay ...

That will be a serious issue , yes it will increas RCS .

 

[asianobserve]

IMHO, Brahmos is too large to be put on an indoor bay of the FGFA - which means the only way it can fit on FGFA is on external pylons, increasing the RCS SIGNIFICANTLY. For a $100 million 5th gen stealth aircraft to carry Brahmos for strike mission, thereby reducing it's RCS and exposing itself to enemy fire is not a smart idea. I sincerely hope that IAF does not use the FGFA to carry Brahmos.
Having said that, LCA is too small to carry Brahmos and deliver it to enemy sites - Nirbhay maybe. Which means till the AMCA comes into operation, the best bet, apart from the MKI is the MMRCA to carry Brahmos and Nirbhay. Or maybe the "upgraded" Mirages can carry Brahmos and Nirbhay ...

Why worry about Bhramos being too large for FGFA's internal bays. If it can't fit there then it can fit in the torpedo silos of India's new nuclear subs. Note sub launching is a favorite of the US and GB in opening strike missions, it must be effective.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

That will be a serious issue , yes it will increas RCS .

Yes, the missile is pretty huge and even bigger than MKI. However may be the air launched version will be smaller and more compact! Moreover it is meaningless to launch an Cruse Missile from air, the aircraft itself is some sort of cruise missile. You only need to be worried about launching it from Water or Land. Aircrafts can do what ever an cruise missile can do, so haveing an fighter jet up in the air and useing it to launch one cruise missiles instead of other missiles and bombs is under kill.

 

[nitesh]

Why worry about Bhramos being too large for FGFA's internal bays. If it can't fit there then it can fit in the torpedo silos of India's new nuclear subs. Note sub launching is a favorite of the US and GB in opening strike missions, it must be effective.

BrahMos, can not be launched from torpedo tubes, it needs VLS, which will be occupied by the SLBM's. For sub launched CM's we have to wait for Nirbhay to be online

 

[asianobserve]

BrahMos, can not be launched from torpedo tubes, it needs VLS, which will be occupied by the SLBM's. For sub launched CM's we have to wait for Nirbhay to be online

Then that should be a cause for worry. Cruise missiles should be extremely adoptable to be used on a variety of launching platforms. This is a major shortcoming of Bhramos. No sub launching... Maybe a special torpedo tube jacket should be developed for Bhramos that will be discarded after exit from the water.

 

[Immanuel]

Submarine launched version Brahmos scheduled to be tested later during the year.

India to test-fire submarine-launched BrahMos - India News - IBNLive

The article also mentions that Sub-launched Brahmos can be deployed on the ATV and its future sisters. It will be tested from the same pontoon that was used for k-15. Brahmos can be deployed on the FGFA if the weight of the missiles is reduced below 2 tons, they have time to do and i am sure will happen by around 2018. Right now they have their hands full with sub and air launched versions. I think if ATV clears all its sea trials and is proven battle ready, we should pronto order 30 or more ATV.

 

[nitesh]

Then that should be a cause for worry. Cruise missiles should be extremely adoptable to be used on a variety of launching platforms. This is a major shortcoming of Bhramos. No sub launching... Maybe a special torpedo tube jacket should be developed for Bhramos that will be discarded after exit from the water.

I guess we are drifting from the thread topic, my reply here:
http://defenceforumindia.com/strategic-forces/13-brahmos-news-discussions-77.html

 

[ace009]

Thanks for the heads up about OT.
Here's my two cents about Mig-21 and it's replacements - A short history of Mig-21, LCA Tejas and IAF requirements.

1. Mig-21s were used as air-superiority fighters in the Vietnam war - that was ~50 years back! The Mig-21s were the early 3rd gen fighters (although nobody counted generations back then). India got a few Mig-21s before the 1965 war, although there were not enough training and pilots to operate them). India finally used the Mig 21s for good in the 1971 war and were impressed by them.

2. By the 1980s, the lack of maneuverability of the Mig-21 compared to the new PAF F-16s and their obsolescence led the IAF to buy the Mig 29s from Soviet Union (SU). The Mig-21s were relegated to support roles and were meant to be used as point defense interceptors. However, the relatively "weak" engines of the Mig-21 meant that they were not very good as point defense interceptors too.

3. The Mig-29s being delivered by the already crumbling SU were having engine problems and creating a lot of trouble in IAF. The only good 4th gen fighters the IAF had were the Mirage 2000s bought from the French. In the mid 1980s, the IAF asked HAL to develop a "Mirage-type" (western design) 4th generation fighter for them to replace the Mig-21s for interception and support roles. That was when ADA was founded and LCA was conceived. So, LCA was designated as the Mig-21 replacement from the beginning.

4. However, in the first half of 1990s, India went through one of the most potent forex crisis in it's history. India's credit rating hit new lows, the economy was in shambles after the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, India's largest trading partner. All defense projects were hit by the economic downturn and no new LCA funding were available. Only after 1995 when India's economy had started to revive thanks to IT boom, did GoI put in some more funds for LCA design and development.

5. Shortly afterwards however, the govt changed, BJP came to power in 1996. The tenor of India's foreign and defense policy changed, with the explosion of nuclear bombs in 1998. At the critical time of LCA development (1998-2000), when foreign collaborations and component buying should have happened, the western governments put in critical sanctions on Indian defense industries, leading to extreme delays in the LCA project in general and the Kaveri engine in particular. Remember, India's biggest problem/ handicap has been it's industrial manufacturing limitations - especially in terms of metallurgy and manufacturing process development. Engines are particularly affected by a combination of these two. There are only 5-6 countries in the world who have the metallurgical technology to develop a 4th generation turbojet engine - USA, Russia, Britain/ Germany, France and Japan. PRC is still trying to catchup and so is India.

6. By the time LCA was ready with the prototypes, the Kaveri had failed critical tests. So, in desparation (and to avoid more Russian engines), India turned to western sources - GE 404 was chosen for the prototypes and then for Mk-1. For the LCA Mk-2 a competition was held, between GE/ EADS - finally GE won the contract with the GE 414. The Kaveri engine development was decoupled from LCA and is being tried out through a JV with Snecma (Mirage again).

7. So, in summary, LCA was, is and should be the real replacement for the Mig 21s. The reason LCA is so late is as much technical as political. Actually it is ALL political - given it's history, it is a miracle that the LCA is still alive and kicking. GoI and MoD should hunker down, throw a whole pot of money, as much brains and indsutrial power as they can and see the LCA through ASAP - to replace the Mig-21s. With India's current ability and clout, we can do it by 2015. Mass production from 2016 (25-30 a year) would put ~250/ 300 LCAs in IAF by 2025, replacing all the Mig-21s, Mig-27s and even the Jaguars due to retire by then.

 

[pankaj nema]

^^^ @ ace 009
LCA Mk1 and mk2 are both heavily made of foreign sub systems

Engine, Radar, weapons , IRST and maybe some more systems are all going to be foreign

What we are doing and LEARNING IS System Integration in a never before manner

 

[ace009]

^^^ @ ace 009
LCA Mk1 and mk2 are both heavily made of foreign sub systems

Engine, Radar, weapons , IRST and maybe some more systems are all going to be foreign

What we are doing and LEARNING IS System Integration in a never before manner

True - but "system integration" can be learnt with foreign components too - we have done that to some extent for the Su-30 MKI. Designing and making those components in India is critical. For that, we need the technological background. CAD models are not enough. If we know what our limitations are in metallurgy and materials research, and develop programs to get over them, then we are on the right path.
With over 1000 Universities and so many "premier" Engineering research institutions like the IITs, NITs etc, we still have very little knowledge of ACTUAL industrial manufacturing with high precision and advanced materials.
That is what limits India's technology development. Forward planning, R&D infrastructure and proper fund allocation. Add to that political bungling, bureaucratic red-tape, corruption, nepotism and lack of work culture in general and what you have is Indian defense R&D.

 

[sandeepdg]

I think IAF have to go for all new may be 200 more a/cs .
Do not think they will go for another a/c from Russia .

Only LM , Boeing and SAAB left . bcz low fly away price and fast delivery .

100 F 16 IN and 100 NG
100 F 16 IN and 100 SH
100 SH and 100 NG
All A/Cs will get assembelled in US or Sweden .

Two different a/cs , so that can get fast delivery .

Its always better to buy planes that we already have in our inventory or those that are similar. So, the best option would be Mig-29 rather than American jets like the F-16 or SH.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Having said that, LCA is too small to carry Brahmos and deliver it to enemy sites - Nirbhay maybe. Which means till the AMCA comes into operation, the best bet, apart from the MKI is the MMRCA to carry Brahmos and Nirbhay. Or maybe the "upgraded" Mirages can carry Brahmos and Nirbhay ...

we have to make sure with the candidates in MRCA agree to this, they may say they don't want Brahmos on their plane because the plane would be violating MCTR or try to push Exocet or something from their inventory???IMO it is more important to get Nirbhay on the planes then Brahmos. Nirbhay has 3 times the range of Brahmos. Deep strikes can be conducted without being deep in enemy terrirtiory.

 

[warriorextreme]

more pilots will die for sure..HAL is going to build most of MMRCA fighters which will take decade to finish.i dont understand why is HAL going to gain by assembling almost all MMRCA planes?? before mig 21 are phased out all of them might crash...do our pilots deserve this delay??

 

[lord]

Correct.. that should be second goal of airforce.. to fit nirbhay after trying brahmose on su30.. but currently both nirbhay and the technology to fit missiles under fighter jets is prelimnary.. lets wait..

i think typhoon will be able to carry a cruise missile underneath it [if selected]

 

[arya]

guys why we are taking time

why not declare MMRCA winner while we all know that

can any one tell us when first MMRCA winner planes will be given to IAF

 

[lord]

guys why we are taking time

why not declare MMRCA winner while we all know that

can any one tell us when first MMRCA winner planes will be given to IAF

Dont worry buddy.. they will declare the winner in one month..
the first sq which we took off shelf will be delivered by 2014-15..after that we will start manufacturing the rest ourselves..

 

[agentperry]

one thing that we are ignoring that 90% of the mig-21s lost are HAL made.... russian made migs and hal made migs have lots of difference if we take into account quality... its a matter of debate that what actually made these Migs flying coffins- bad quality manufacturing by HAL, bad qaulity spares from erstwhile soviet union and CIS countries, bad servicing from IAF maintenance guys or pilot errors....

 

[agentperry]

mmrca, sukhois and lca all will take care of migs. 126+270+40(confirmed) till 2018... well mmrca no may be some less... but still that will make up for 200+100 migs in iaf quantitatively and qualitatively much more than migs.

 

[ace009]

one thing that we are ignoring that 90% of the mig-21s lost are HAL made.... russian made migs and hal made migs have lots of difference if we take into account quality... its a matter of debate that what actually made these Migs flying coffins- bad quality manufacturing by HAL, bad qaulity spares from erstwhile soviet union and CIS countries, bad servicing from IAF maintenance guys or pilot errors....

I don't think it has much to do with who made it - the mig 21 has been in service from 1962 - most of the Mig 21s flying now were made or delivered to India in the late 1970s or early 1980s. They have gone through more wear and tear than anything else. The design and manufacturing quality back in those days were not nearly as good as the present day fighters. So, it's more like aging and usage that destroys the Mig 21 than anything else.

 

[agentperry]

I don't think it has much to do with who made it - the mig 21 has been in service from 1962 - most of the Mig 21s flying now were made or delivered to India in the late 1970s or early 1980s. They have gone through more wear and tear than anything else. The design and manufacturing quality back in those days were not nearly as good as the present day fighters. So, it's more like aging and usage that destroys the Mig 21 than anything else.

crashes are not recent phenomenon... they are happening since long... 460+ lost in last 35 years... its more then PAF strength rite now where as crashes of other airforces having migs are far lower as compared to iaf....