MH17: Would the Dutch be civilized enough to reciprocate?

[apple]

@apple :



Yes, it indeed is amusing to see some Westerner like you trying to so vociferously find defects in Indian psyche and reasons behind Indians being Russophiles.

You should probably revisit when you are stuck between a rock and a hard place like say a Western country trying to persuade China to attack you when you are most vulnerable in every sphere while having it's own naval destroyers circling you along with a full combat ready battalion ready to attack on command.

But then, it is Australia so the expectations of that happening aren't high. You'd probably have few bogans utter some Aussie slander to repel all the invading forces. G'day mate! :thumb:

Why are you so ready to presume that I consider being stubborn a defect?

In your second paragraph you're talking about when China invaded you, right? A carrier task force was what America sent, not destroyers. Am interested in where this American battalion was and how it was "ready to attack on command". Well, actually I'm not really interested and it's of no relevance to this thread.

But yes, Australia isn't threatened with invision, mainly because we have allies and get on well with all (or almost all) nations.

Quote by Indian PM at recent BRICS summit :

At the summit, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi noted that "if you ask anyone among the more than one billion people living in India who is our country's greatest friend, every person, every child knows that it is Russia."

By the way, @apple - are you always this ignorant or you practice really hard at being one?

This was ignorance on my part. Statements at a international forum are, usually, quite easy to discount. But, given the timing of when Modi said that, it has some significance.

But, to actually get back on topic.

The fact is that you are trying to discredit the Dutch by pointing out that they are not even expressing symphaties for the dead in Eastern Ukraine. Fact is that the Dutch are not in any obligation to publicly express symphaties to the dead in Eastern Ukraine. They have nothing to do with the deaths there.

Of course it does not mean to say that they are not praying for World peace and the hope that all these troubled lands will be happy and at peace again. Nobody like to see people getting killed. I believe that most if not all of the Dutch are praying that nobody gets killed anymore senselessly by mindless wars, I know my mother, father and us in the family have the same prayer.

There's no point debating that guy. He's trying to change the discussion, on his own thread, from Pro Russian seperatists are more civilised than the Dutch to: the Dutch deserved it.

 

[pmaitra]

There's no point debating that guy. He's trying to change the discussion, on his own thread, from Pro Russian seperatists are more civilised than the Dutch to: the Dutch deserved it.

Who said the "Dutch deserved it?"

Can you quote a post?

 

[thethinker]

Why are you so ready to presume that I consider being stubborn a defect?

In your second paragraph you're talking about when China invaded you, right? A carrier task force was what America sent, not destroyers. Am interested in where this American battalion was and how it was "ready to attack on command". Well, actually I'm not really interested and it's of no relevance to this thread.

.

That is the point. You as a Westerner have no idea about what caused so much admiration of Russia in India. People have long memories especially of events that could potentially devastate a nation and it's progress.

Here is something, go through it for more details before trying to mouth off about how bad Russia is for Indians and how good US is. :

Newly declassified documents reveal that the Indian Prime Minister went ahead with her plan to liberate Bangladesh despite inputs that the Americans had kept three battalions of Marines on standby to deter India, and that the American aircraft carrier USS Enterprise had orders to target the Indian Army, which had broken through the Pakistani Army's defences and was thundering down the highway to the gates of Lahore, West Pakistan's second largest city.

Some more :

On December 10, even as Nixon and Kissinger were frothing at the mouth, Indian intelligence intercepted an American message, indicating that the US Seventh Fleet was steaming into the war zone. The Seventh Fleet, which was then stationed in the Gulf of Tonkin, was led by the 75,000 ton nuclear powered aircraft carrier, the USS Enterprise. The world's largest warship, it carried more than 70 fighters and bombers. The Seventh Fleet also included the guided missile cruiser USS King, guided missile destroyers USS Decatur, Parsons and Tartar Sam, and a large amphibious assault ship USS Tripoli.

Yet some more :

The British and the Americans had planned a coordinated pincer to intimidate India: while the British ships in the Arabian Sea would target India's western coast, the Americans would make a dash into the Bay of Bengal in the east where 100,000 Pakistani troops were caught between the advancing Indian troops and the sea.
To counter this two-pronged British-American threat, Russia dispatched a nuclear-armed flotilla from Vladivostok on December 13 under the overall command of Admiral Vladimir Kruglyakov, the Commander of the 10th Operative Battle Group (Pacific Fleet). Though the Russian fleet comprised a good number of nuclear-armed ships and atomic submarines, their missiles were of limited range (less than 300 km). Hence to effectively counter the British and American fleets the Russian commanders had to undertake the risk of encircling them to bring them within their target. This they did with military precision.

Frankly, you should probably avoid going into topics whose history you know nothing about and then come across as an ignorant Aussie. Or you can, it would be amusing to highlight your ignorance over and over.:thumb:

 

[thethinker]

Some transcripts:

Another telephone conversation between the scheming duo reveals a lot about the mindset of those at the highest echelons of American decision making:

Kissinger: And the point you made yesterday, we have to continue to squeeze the Indians even when this thing is settled.

Nixon: We've got to for rehabilitation. I mean, Jesus Christ, they've bombed—I want all the war damage; I want to help Pakistan on the war damage in Karachi and other areas, see?

Kissinger: Yeah

Nixon: I don't want the Indians to be happy. I want a public relations programme developed to piss on the Indians.

Kissinger: Yeah.

Nixon: I want to piss on them for their responsibility. Get a white paper out. Put down, White paper. White paper. Understand that?

Kissinger: Oh, yeah.

Nixon: I don't mean for just your reading. But a white paper on this.

Kissinger: No, no. I know.

Nixon: I want the Indians blamed for this, you know what I mean? We can't let these goddamn, sanctimonious Indians get away with this. They've pissed on us on Vietnam for 5 years, Henry.

Kissinger: Yeah.

Nixon: Aren't the Indians killing a lot of these people?

Kissinger: Well, we don't know the facts yet. But I'm sure they're not as stupid as the West Pakistanis—they don't let the press in. The idiot Paks have the press all over their place.

@apple Stubborn Indian mindset indeed, yes?

 

[thethinker]

Some more :

Nixon: So West Pakistan giving trouble there.

Kissinger: If they lose half of their country without fighting they will be destroyed. They may also be destroyed this way but they will go down fighting.

Nixon: The Pakistan thing makes your heart sick. For them to be done so by the Indians and after we have warned the bitch (reference to Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi). Tell them that when India talks about West Pakistan attacking them it's like Russia claiming to be attacked by Finland.

Nixon: The Indians need—what they need really is a—

Kissinger: They're such bastards.

Nixon: A mass famine. But they aren't going to get that"¦But if they're not going to have a famine the last thing they need is another war. Let the goddamn Indians fight a war.

Kissinger: They are the most aggressive goddamn people around there.

@apple - Quite civilized Western folks eh? How thoughtful to call a lady and that too the Indian PM a bitch?

 

[thethinker]

Who said the "Dutch deserved it?"

Can you quote a post?

He makes up his own versions as he goes along.
As per him I said "In your second paragraph you're talking about when China invaded you, right? ".

Apparently persuading China to attack India in his own mind means the same as invasion.

 

[apple]

That is the point. You as a Westerner have no idea about what caused so much admiration of Russia in India. People have long memories especially of events that could potentially devastate a nation and it's progress.

Here is something, go through it for more details before trying to mouth off about how bad Russia is for Indians and how good US is. :

Newly declassified documents reveal that the Indian Prime Minister went ahead with her plan to liberate Bangladesh despite inputs that the Americans had kept three battalions of Marines on standby to deter India, and that the American aircraft carrier USS Enterprise had orders to target the Indian Army, which had broken through the Pakistani Army's defences and was thundering down the highway to the gates of Lahore, West Pakistan's second largest city.

Some more :

On December 10, even as Nixon and Kissinger were frothing at the mouth, Indian intelligence intercepted an American message, indicating that the US Seventh Fleet was steaming into the war zone. The Seventh Fleet, which was then stationed in the Gulf of Tonkin, was led by the 75,000 ton nuclear powered aircraft carrier, the USS Enterprise. The world's largest warship, it carried more than 70 fighters and bombers. The Seventh Fleet also included the guided missile cruiser USS King, guided missile destroyers USS Decatur, Parsons and Tartar Sam, and a large amphibious assault ship USS Tripoli.

Yet some more :

The British and the Americans had planned a coordinated pincer to intimidate India: while the British ships in the Arabian Sea would target India's western coast, the Americans would make a dash into the Bay of Bengal in the east where 100,000 Pakistani troops were caught between the advancing Indian troops and the sea.
To counter this two-pronged British-American threat, Russia dispatched a nuclear-armed flotilla from Vladivostok on December 13 under the overall command of Admiral Vladimir Kruglyakov, the Commander of the 10th Operative Battle Group (Pacific Fleet). Though the Russian fleet comprised a good number of nuclear-armed ships and atomic submarines, their missiles were of limited range (less than 300 km). Hence to effectively counter the British and American fleets the Russian commanders had to undertake the risk of encircling them to bring them within their target. This they did with military precision.

Frankly, you should probably avoid going into topics whose history you know nothing about and then come across as an ignorant Aussie. Or you can, it would be amusing to highlight your ignorance over and over.:thumb:

Unlike Indian domestic politics, I'm pretty good with world history.

Sure, in the Indo- Pakistan War of 1971 Russia was your friend and the US wasn't.

I'm interested in your claim that British ships would "target" the Indian west coast, which is something I've never heard. The concept of your three battalions of Marines, or the American task force in general, being considered a legimite threat to India strikes me as pretty ridiculous.

He makes up his own versions as he goes along.
As per him I said "In your second paragraph you're talking about when China invaded you, right? ".

Apparently persuading China to attack India in his own mind means the same as invasion.

Am even more interested in your claim that Nixon persuaded the Chinese to attack India.

Well, I'm actually not interested at all, as it has no relevance to this thread and I'm not here to defend America. But, have fun pasting text/ posting links of stuff.

As to me "making stuff" up. Have you read all the posts here? First it was the pro Russians Ukrainians were more civilised than the Dutch, then it was the conflict is the EU's fault and the Dutch weren't displaying "adequate" sorrow for the cilivans killed in the east Ukraine. Well remorse would have been a more suitable word as The Netherlands is part of the EU, so the Ukraine dead are, apparently their fault.

 

[thethinker]

Unlike Indian domestic politics, I'm pretty good with world history.

Sure, in the Indo- Pakistan War of 1971 Russia was your friend and the US wasn't.

I'm interested in your claim that British ships would "target" the Indian west coast, which is something I've never heard. The concept of your three battalions of Marines, or the American task force in general, being considered a legimite threat to India strikes me as pretty ridiculous.



Am even more interested in your claim that Nixon persuaded the Chinese to attack India.

Well, I'm actually not interested at all, as it has no relevance to this thread and I'm not here to defend America. But, have fun pasting text/ posting links of stuff.

As to me "making stuff" up. Have you read all the posts here? First it was the pro Russians Ukrainians were more civilised than the Dutch, then it was the conflict is the EU's fault and the Dutch weren't displaying "adequate" sorrow for the cilivans killed in the east Ukraine. Well remorse would have been a more suitable word as The Netherlands is part of the EU, so the Ukraine dead are, apparently their fault.

Trying to discredit declassified documents just because they don't support your own views is ridiculous. But please do continue to accept what suits you and reject what goes against your brainwashed one-sided history learnings.

Some sources :

US forces had orders to target Indian Army in 1971

Nixon/Kissinger Saw India as "Soviet Stooge" in 1971 South Asia Crisis

Books :


The Blood Telegram

There are tons of documents from WikiLeaks too but those aren't listed here as you would again dismiss it as an unreliable source.

Face it that you have no clue about what transpired in 1971 war rather than making out of context claims and twisting words like "China invasion".

 

[apple]

Trying to discredit declassified documents just because they don't support your own views is ridiculous. But please do continue to accept what suits you and reject what goes against your brainwashed one-sided history learnings.

Some sources :

US forces had orders to target Indian Army in 1971

Nixon/Kissinger Saw India as "Soviet Stooge" in 1971 South Asia Crisis

Books :


The Blood Telegram

There are tons of documents from WikiLeaks too but those aren't listed here as you would again dismiss it as an unreliable source.

Face it that you have no clue about what transpired in 1971 war rather than making out of context claims and twisting words like "China invasion".

I don't dismiss anything and I haven't discredited anything. Am just not particularly interested as it's not relevant to this discussion. You've got quite the persecution there, buddy.

Thanks for the links.

 

[thethinker]

I don't dismiss anything and I haven't discredited anything. Am just not particularly interested as it's not relevant to this discussion. You've got quite the persecution there, buddy.

Thanks for the links.

Your specific interest in why Indians love Russia has got everything to do with these events and so is "relevant to the discussion" THAT you yourself first had the inclination to open and multi-quote everyone around here.

And speaking of persecution, who claimed that posters on DFI are sociopaths?

 

[apple]

Your specific interest in why Indians love Russia has got everything to do with these events and so is "relevant to the discussion" THAT you yourself first had the inclination to open and multi-quote everyone around here.

And speaking of persecution, who claimed that posters on DFI are sociopaths?

Describing people trying to create some kind of moral equivalency, between the victims of MH17 and Pro Russian seperatists, as sociopaths has nothing to do with your persecution complex.

Keep flying off the handle and getting offended everytime I make a comment, I really couldn't care.

 

[thethinker]

Describing people trying to create some kind of moral equivalency, between the victims of MH17 and Pro Russian seperatists, as sociopaths has nothing to do with your persecution complex.

Keep flying off the handle and getting offended everytime I make a comment, I really couldn't care.

Continue showing off your ignorance on "Indian psyche" and keep backing off when you can't defend your point of views.

I really don't care about you or your existence or lack of it but would surely love to point out irrefutable discrepancies to an uninformed and sanctimonious Westerner like you who has wrong and idealized notions about past Indian crisis events.

 

[pmaitra]

He makes up his own versions as he goes along.
As per him I said "In your second paragraph you're talking about when China invaded you, right? ".

Apparently persuading China to attack India in his own mind means the same as invasion.

Yes, @apple is what I would call a compulsive liar. He can't help it, as I had told him earlier, he is a man of dishonest character.

 

[apple]

Continue showing off your ignorance on "Indian psyche" and keep backing off when you can't defend your point of views.

I really don't care about you or your existence or lack of it but would surely love to point out irrefutable discrepancies to an uninformed and sanctimonious Westerner like you who has wrong and idealized notions about past Indian crisis events.

My only comment on the "Indian psyche" was that Indians are stubborn. I have offered no view on India's history or "crisis events" apart from saying you were buddies with the Soviet Union. You're looking like a pathetic, angry fool digging into my posts as deep as you can trying to find something to be offended about.

You realise what this thread was about, right?

Keep stubbornly ;-) slagging me off and ignoring all the garbage the OP has posted at the beginning of this thread.

 

[thethinker]

@apple

Here is what you specifically said "To be one of the thethinker's "Westerner trying to figure out Indian psyche" I could offer the suggestion that Indians are very stubborn. While stubborn can be good i.e. an opening batsman in cricket, in international relations it's less useful."

The context of your this reply was a specific quote regarding Indo-Russia relationships :

"Westerners trying to figure out Indian psyche is hilarious and that too on DFI of all places. Must be hard for them to understand why US still is not the "bro" for India while Russia for all it's defects and shortcomings still is."

You even made it a point to multi-quote this . Now, don't backtrack and try to generalize your response since you were curious enough to quote specifics.

All of this coming from someone who has no clue about any geopolitical history between nations that are foreign to him but has the audacity to equate Russophile nature of Indians with being stubborn. Good job making yourself look as an "pathetic, angry fool" (and might I add ignorant to that as well). Perhaps you should stay out of matters that don't concern you but I don't expect that considering how you Westerners have the tendency to meddle in affairs all around the world.

G'day mate.:thumb:

 

[apple]

The context of your this reply was a specific quote regarding Indo-Russia relationships :

Sure, you're response to my reply was relevant. Writing insulting reply after insulting reply to me, however, isn't relevant to this thread. It's just stubborness.

All of this coming from someone who has no clue about any geopolitical history between nations that are foreign to him but has the audacity to equate Russophile nature of Indians with being stubborn. Good job making yourself look as an "pathetic, angry fool" (and might I add ignorant to that as well). Perhaps you should stay out of matters that don't concern you but I don't expect that considering how you Westerners have the tendency to meddle in affairs all around the world.

Because I didn't know what the Indian PM said last week I have no clue about history?

I'm done with your derailing of this thread and the personal attacks. The thread was about matters that do concern me i.e. MH17.

So, as I was saying earlier, I really don't care about your little hissy fits. Have fun coming back with an angry response, I'll give you the last word.

 

[thethinker]

I'm done with your derailing of this thread and the personal attacks.
So, as I was saying earlier, I really don't care about your little hissy fits. Have fun coming back with an angry response, I'll give you the last word.

Contradictions everywhere as always.

 

[apple]

"Civilised" seperatists finally allow, after 2 weeks, Dutch and Australian police and forensic experts access to the crash site to search for the remains of the ~100 missing and examine the wreckage.

MH17: Australian, Dutch team of investigators reaches crash site

 

[pmaitra]

"Civilised" seperatists finally allow, after 2 weeks, Dutch and Australian police and forensic experts access to the crash site to search for the remains of the ~100 missing and examine the wreckage.

MH17: Australian, Dutch team of investigators reaches crash site

OSCE observers visited the crash site on July 17, 2014. That is not 2 weeks. Re-do your math.

 

[Akim]

OSCE observers visited the crash site on July 17, 2014. That is not 2 weeks. Re-do your math.

Aga. Under tight control and warning shot into the air. The investigation will be objective, when nobody control will not.