MH17 might have been shot down from air — chief Dutch investigator

sgarg

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I worked as an engineer at Odessa aviation plant 2002-2004. I have a specialization in optics, lasers, radar.
Why are you wasting your time on this forum if you have "specialization in optics, lasers, radar". Don't you have something better to do??

You are completely wrong BTW. Learn something.
 

Khagesh

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I worked as an engineer at Odessa aviation plant 2002-2004. I have a specialization in optics, lasers, radar.
In that case you should be able to educate us about the capability of the reflector sights on the Su25 and how much of a time it allows for the pilot to take a tracking gun shot on big lumbering target.

Be our guest.


@sgarg, I don't like too many presumptions in a theory. Missiles to my mind require too many presumptions. Though I do realize that there are quite a few theories on MH17. One also that both an R60 and gun kill was employed.

I prefer the singular gun kill theory. No missiles employed.
 
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Akim

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Why are you wasting your time on this forum if you have "specialization in optics, lasers, radar". Don't you have something better to do??

You are completely wrong BTW. Learn something.
I'm just here to talk, because I'm interesting.
 

Akim

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In that case you should be able to educate us about the capability of the reflector sights on the Su25 and how much of a time it allows for the pilot to take a tracking gun shot on big lumbering target.

Be our guest.


@sgarg, I don't like too many presumptions in a theory. Missiles to my mind require too many presumptions. Though I do realize that there are quite a few theories on MH17. One also that both an R60 and gun kill was employed.

I prefer the singular gun kill theory. No missiles employed.

Odessa aircraft plant specializes in the repair of the MIG-21 and MiG-23/27 and modernization of the L-39.
 
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pmaitra

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I decided to prove it using Wikipedia? Great.:laugh: Heat air missile has always focused on the engine from any angle of launch.
Not always, but usually. The hot air exhaust from the engines is the input signal, but it can be easily masked by adding noise to the signal, and that is done by deploying flares. In such cases, the missile has to have intelligent algorithms (which is not in the optics or lasers, BTW), that will be able to separate the false positives from the true positive.
 

sgarg

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@Khagesh, My view is use of aircraft gun is unlikely. A missile will give the same effect when the warhead explodes using proximity fuse.

A Su-25, even a helicopter can launch a heat seeking missile at an airliner. Airliner is a non-maneuvering target. It heading and speed were available to Ukrainian radar. Any large modern all aspect missile will be able to lock on to a higher flying aircraft from a distance of 10km or more. The launching aircraft does not need a radar. All it has to do is arm the seeker of the missile. The missile seeker itself locks on to the target.

Dutch investigation has become political with all tell-tale signs of American pressure.
 
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sgarg

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Flight MH17 Crash Update 2014: Dutch 'Botched' Investigation In Ukraine Crash, Victims' Families Demand UN Review


Flight MH17 Crash Update 2014: Dutch 'Botched' Investigation In Ukraine Crash, Victims' Families Demand UN Review

The families of Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash victims want the United Nations to take over the investigation of the downing of the aircraft, citing frustration over what they say is the failure of Dutch authorities to build a proper case, according to a Reuters report.
Despite launching the largest criminal investigation in their country's history, the families say Dutch authorities "completely botched" the investigation in a letter signed by 20 relatives of victims and sent to Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte on Friday. The Dutch Safety Board took over the investigation within days of the crash, as many of the victims were Dutch. Rutte disagreed with the families' assessment: "We have done everything we could... In view of the safety situation and the weather, we cannot do anything more right now."
 

sgarg

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Although some media rushed to conclusions, spokesman for the Dutch Public Prosecutor, Wim de Bruin, emphasized that there is "more than one" scenario. "But the one of the Buk rocket has a lot of unanswered questions and that's why we have put out an appeal," de Bruin said, calling it a"leading scenario."

"This appeal for witnesses does not mean that police and prosecutors have definitively concluded what caused MH17 to crash," the address said. "For that, more investigation is needed."


A preliminary report of the official investigation published in September 2014 only said that the crash was a result of structural damage caused by a large number of high-energy objects that struck the Boeing from the outside. The report did not specify what the objects were, where they came from or who was responsible.
MH17 probe looking for witnesses to back 'Buk missile' scenario — RT News
 

Akim

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Not always, but usually. The hot air exhaust from the engines is the input signal, but it can be easily masked by adding noise to the signal, and that is done by deploying flares. In such cases, the missile has to have intelligent algorithms (which is not in the optics or lasers, BTW), that will be able to separate the false positives from the true positive.

This is correct, but the head is induced by heat. Jet or gas turbine engine generates heat not only in the afterburner chamber at the nozzle. Ultra-sensitive Fire-and-forget can even capture aerial target with a piston engine. But it is a modern Fire-and-forget. The Ukrainian army has no such.
 

happy

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Flight MH17 Crash Update 2014: Dutch 'Botched' Investigation In Ukraine Crash, Victims' Families Demand UN Review


Flight MH17 Crash Update 2014: Dutch 'Botched' Investigation In Ukraine Crash, Victims' Families Demand UN Review
One more view of the victims relatives from the same link:

The German mother of one victim filed a lawsuit against Ukraine with the European Court of Human Rights over the tragedy on Sunday, demanding $1 million from the government for negligent homicide, according to AFP. The suit argues that Ukraine is responsible for the tragedy because it didn't close the airspace over embattled eastern Ukraine.
 

happy

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When she didn't respond, I sent her some more detailed questions describing leaks that I had received about what some U.S. intelligence analysts have since concluded, as well as what the German intelligence agency, the BND, reported to a parliamentary committee last October, according to Der Spiegel.

While there are differences in those analyses about who fired the missile, there appears to be agreement that the Russian government did not supply the ethnic Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine with a sophisticated Buk anti-aircraft missile system that the original DNI report identified as the likely weapon used to destroy the commercial airliner killing all 298 people onboard.

Butler replied to my last e-mail late Friday, saying "As you can imagine, I can't get into details, but can share that the assessment has IC [Intelligence Community] consensus" – apparently still referring to the July 22 report.
Yet, after getting propaganda mileage out of the tragedy – and after I reported on the growing doubts within the U.S. intelligence community about whether the Russians and the rebels were indeed responsible – the Obama administration went silent.

In other words, after U.S. intelligence analysts had time to review the data from spy satellites and various electronic surveillance, including phone intercepts, the Obama administration didn't retract its initial rush to judgment – tossing blame on Russia and the rebels – but provided no further elaboration either.

This strange behavior reinforces the suspicion that the U.S. government possesses information that contradicts its initial rush to judgment, but senior officials don't want to correct the record because to do so would embarrass them and weaken the value of the tragedy as a propaganda club to pound the Russians.

If the later evidence did bolster the Russia-did-it scenario, it's hard to imagine why the proof would stay secret – especially since U.S. officials have continued to insinuate that the Russians are guilty.
US Intelligence Stands Pat on MH-17 Shoot-down | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization
 

sgarg

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This is correct, but the head is induced by heat. Jet or gas turbine engine generates heat not only in the afterburner chamber at the nozzle. Ultra-sensitive Fire-and-forget can even capture aerial target with a piston engine. But it is a modern Fire-and-forget. The Ukrainian army has no such.
The R-73E/R-73EL small-range and close air combat air-to-air missiles are designed to engage various types of air targets, such as fighters, bombers, attack and military transport aircraft, approaching from any direction, by day and night, in conditions of ground clutter and enemy active countermeasures.
They feature an all-aspect IR passive homing head and ensure missile launch in accordance with the "fire-ad-forget" principle.
The missiles' high agility is due to a unique combined gas/aerodynamic control system.
The missiles are powered by a one-mode solid-fuel rocket engine.
The R-73E missile modification is equipped with a radar proximity fuse/target sensor, while the R-73EL-with a laser proximity target sensor.
The missiles make part of weapon systems of MiG/Su type and other aircraft.
The missiles can be employed not only by fighters, but also by attack aircraft and helicopters.
The missile is carried under the carrier aircraft and launched in combat, or jettisoned in emergency, by means of the P-72-1D/P-72-1DB2 airborne rail launcher.
The missiles can be adapted for employment from foreign-made carriers in accordance with the technology, developed by the designer.
Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC
 

sgarg

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And what does that mean?
R-73 is an all-aspect missile. It can be fired from any quarter - like front and side; and a tail chase is not necessary. A modern missile can lock on to a heat signature of any part of the plane, not necessarily hot plume of the engine.

Ukraine can also fire a western missile from a modified Su-25. Who knows?

Your arguments are patently false.
 

Akim

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R-73 is an all-aspect missile. It can be fired from any quarter - like front and side; and a tail chase is not necessary. A modern missile can lock on to a heat signature of any part of the plane, not necessarily hot plume of the engine.

Ukraine can also fire a western missile from a modified Su-25. Who knows?

Your arguments are patently false.
I, unfortunately, can not explain how the defeat of such a missile. It's no secret, there's just not enough knowledge of English.
Ukrainian su-25 can't shoot R-73. It is not the task of modernization. However, the Ukrainian aircraft factories can do it. Recently, in Odessa repaired and upgraded Croatian MiG-21. Now they can shoot not only R-60 and R-73 and AIM-9P.
 

Khagesh

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Odessa aircraft plant specializes in the repair of the MIG-21 and MiG-23/27 and modernization of the L-39.
I don't get it. So what if the Odessa plant was for different aircrafts and not for Su25.

You claimed the following:
I worked as an engineer at Odessa aviation plant 2002-2004. I have a specialization in optics, lasers, radar
With that claim you should be able to explain a lot about how guns are used and how an R-60 would get used if fired by an Su25 against an airliner.




@Khagesh, My view is use of aircraft gun is unlikely. A missile will give the same effect when the warhead explodes using proximity fuse.
Actually I discarded the R-60 because of the differences in effects. No comparison between a gun kill and a R-60 kill.

With R-60 it becomes very difficult to explain the gaping holes in the cockpit area. And the fact that the cockpit went silent and the fact that the cockpit fell to the ground first.
 
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Akim

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I don't get it. So what if the Odessa plant was for different aircrafts and not for Su25.

I can explain the principle of induction and start aiming and firing of the missile. If I can repair the engine VAZ, that doesn't mean I can repair the engine of the Mercedes.
 

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