MH17 might have been shot down from air — chief Dutch investigator

[Razor]

Iranian Air Flight 655 was no doubt a tragic event. But unlike KAL 007 which was not in a hot conflict zone, Iranian Air flight 655 tragedy was set in the backdrop of actual military engagement wherein a US navy ship was struck by an anti-ship missile, another US navy ship struck an Iranian mine, and an ongoing US and Iranian naval clashes in the area.

Even though there was no "war" going on it was a very tense period in 83 (and 80s in general) due to the reasons I mentioned in my post you quoted.
Though I wouldn't actually condone the shooting down of civilian airplane that has (KAL 007) or hasn't (Iran Air 655) violated airspace, without warning, unless either parties can prove the presence of spying equipment like cameras.

 

[asianobserve]

And if fact, that Col. is right, such a plane can be used for spying. Though I doubt it actually was a spy plane.

Exactly. When did the Americans use civilian airliners for spying on the Soviet Union? The Americans have specialized planes for spying that no doubt were well known to Soviet fighters at the time. If he was not itching for a fight at the time he intercepted KAL 007 the good Colonel could have relied more on what his eyes was seeing that on his second guess.

 

[Razor]

Exactly. When did the Americans use civilian airliners for spying on the Soviet Union? The Americans have specialized planes for spying that no doubt were well known to Soviet fighters at the time. If he was not itching for a fight at the time he intercepted KAL 007 the good Colonel could have relied more on what his eyes was seeing that on his second guess.

Yes the SU fighters were well aware of American Spy planes like the U2 that Gary Powers was flying which was shot down (Powers surprisingly survived and funnily Eisenhower was told that Powers was dead, after which Eisenhower told the world media that it was a weather mission. After this announcement the SU released info saying that Powers was alive and had confessed that it was a spy mission)
But the world of spying is not so Black and White. It's full of grey.
I read the book: Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency, by James Bamford.
The author, (who was given unprecedented access to NSA archives for the book, by then NSA director), says that the US used disguised civilian ships or hospital ships (either one I don't exactly remember now in any case it wasn't a military ship) for spying on countries including N.Korea ans some other countries. The funny thing is only a select few members of the ships knew of the actual mission of the ship.
So civilian plane for spying is not entirely is not entirely out of the question, in those days.
But these days we have much more advanced stuff so need for civilian planes.

 

[asianobserve]

Yes the SU fighters were well aware of American Spy planes like the U2 that Gary Powers was flying which was shot down (Powers surprisingly survived and funnily Eisenhower was told that Powers was dead, after which Eisenhower told the world media that it was a weather mission. After this announcement the SU released info saying that Powers was alive and had confessed that it was a spy mission)
But the world of spying is not so Black and White. It's full of grey.
I read the book: Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency, by James Bamford.
The author, (who was given unprecedented access to NSA archives for the book, by then NSA director), says that the US used disguised civilian ships or hospital ships (either one I don't exactly remember now in any case it wasn't a military ship) for spying on countries including N.Korea ans some other countries. The funny thing is only a select few members of the ships knew of the actual mission of the ship.
So civilian plane for spying is not entirely is not entirely out of the question, in those days.
But these days we have much more advanced stuff so need for civilian planes.

I still have to come across a material that says that the US previously or after KAL 007 incident used civilian airliners (with foreign airlines markings) for its surveillance inside Soviet airspace.

 

[Ray]

I don't think you can claim to know more of this issue than me. The only difference between you and me is that you are constantly trying to deviate blame away from the Russians.




Please read again my post.




You see unlike the tense background of the later Iran Air 655 tragedy, the atmosphere above the airspace where KAL 007 was shot down was not as tense as the Gulf after Operation Prying Mantis. If it was only the fear of being spied on then the USSR do not have to resort to such drastic measures as shooting down the spy plane. This is especially true since there were clear indications that it was a civilian airliner and not the usual USAF spy plane.




Believe me we are on the same page on the issue of honors to those American sailors.

That you know nothing has been already proved.

You are so nescient that you know nothing of the environment prevailing nor having the capacity to understand what was written to enlighten you about the world situation during the KAL 007 happening.

What a gas that the Iran Air environment was more dangerous than KAL 007 geopolitical environment.

Ignorance is bliss.

Stay blissful, but don't tax our patience with bunkum and ignorance.

So quit wasting bandwidth.

I don't care a damn about Russians.

I want the facts and that is all.

 

[Ray]

I still have to come across a material that says that the US previously or after KAL 007 incident used civilian airliners (with foreign airlines markings) for its surveillance inside Soviet airspace.

The basic idea was that a bomber and an airliner or air transport are fundamentally similar: they are both big, heavy aircraft designed to carry a large payload over a long distance. In fact, early airliners were often just war-surplus bombers; conversely, some bombers had civilian origins (such as the Handley Page Hyderabad, developed from the H-P W.8).

Brig.-Gen. Percy Robert Clifford. C.B. 1919, C.M.G., D.S.O was the first to sound the tocsin, in 1922:

"An aeroplane which can carry a certain number of passengers a certain distance at a certain speed is capable of carrying an equivalent weight in bombs for the same distance at the same speed; and any passenger-carrier which is efficient as such can be transformed into an efficient bomber."

During the early 1980s, Boeing designed a low-cost bomber based on the 747 airframe that could launch 72 cruise missiles from internal rotary launchers
Jumbo Jet Bombers

The US Department of Defense has identified a shortfall in bomber and transport capabilities necessary to execute the two nearly simultaneous Major Regional Contingencies called for in the President's National Security Strategy. One option to fill the bomber and transport shortfall, though one not discussed in current studies, is to develop transport-bombers.

This study addresses three main questions to determine the transport-bomber's usefulness. The first is whether commanders can use such an aircraft in ways that truly enhance force application and mobility operations without unduly undermining one in favor of the other? The answer, because of technology enhancements and budget constraints, is definitely yes. The second question targets technology specifically by asking whether engineers could place some elements of both missions on a single aircraft? Again the answer appears to be positive. Finally, the study analyzes budgetary and operational constraints in an attempt to answer the question of the appropriate force mix. In the end, either three squadrons of C-17s or two squadrons of B-747-400s provide the necessary capability. The C-17 is a more versatile and flexible mobility platform than the B-747 and engineers have identified all the technological challenges that will allow it to rapidly convert into a bomber. The B-747, on the other hand, can employ twice as many missiles, carry more than two and one-half times the number of cargo pallets and fly further than the C-17. However, its ability to "swing" promptly remains unproven and it requires intratheater airlift support to move its cargo to forward operating bases.
Transport-Bombers: A Conceptual Shift in Precision Guided Munitions Delivery

Ignorance is bliss.

I never heard of the US having something lethal like Agent Orange.

But when they used it, I knew.

But did it mean that there would be no such thing as Agent Orange?

All Russian airliners are capable of being converted to Bombers, in case people did not know.

The Russia metro is actually also usable as a nuclear shelter.

So, all that glitters is actually not gold.

But only knowledge can give that insight. Ignorance cannot.

Though it is a truism that many are not blessed with situational awareness.

 

[Ray]

Once again here is the geopolitical and security environment in 1983 when the KAL 007 incident happended.

The serious risk in 1983

The Evil Empire vs. Star Wars

In March 1983, what the Soviets saw as two highly provocative statements came from President Reagan. On 8-March, Reagan, speaking to the National Association of Evangelicals in Orlando, Florida, described the Soviet Union as an 'evil empire'. For the Soviet Communist leadership, this meant that Washington was seeking to deny them their legitimacy as a major power of co-equal status with the
US. The speech in Orlando would stick in the throats of the Soviets for many years to come. Two weeks later, on 23-March, Reagan went on national television from the Oval Office to announce the SDI to
counter the Soviet Union's growing strategic offensive force with an impermeable defensive shield against ballistic missile attack.10 If this worked, it would negate over a quarter of a century of Soviet offensive nuclear programs and require an expensive response at a time of deep economic crisis in the-USSR.

The Soviet leadership had apparently convinced itself that America could in fact build such a defensive nuclear umbrella—as unlikely as that was recognised to be by many experts in the US. Moscow was faced with the potential threat of a highly expensive new arms race in an area in which it could not hope to compete. First Deputy Defence Minister and Chief of the General Staff, Marshal Nikolai
Ogarkov, acknowledged at the time that the USSR would never be able to catch up with the US in modern arms until it had an economic revolution. Just at the moment when it had arguably achieved nuclear parity with America, the paranoid Soviet leadership—led by former KGB chief Yuri Andropov—feared it would be faced with the development of a new system that would allow the US to destroy the
USSR with a first strike while sitting securely under its 'Star Wars'-umbrella.

Andropov lashed out four days after the President's nnouncement and accused Reagan of 'inventing new plans n how to unleash a nuclear war "¦ with the hope of winning it'. His accusations were unprecedented, and he was telling his nation that the world was on the verge of a nuclear war.
http://nsarchive.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/sr56_nuclear_war_scare.pdf

Now compare @asianobserve contention that the IranAir being shot down was more dangerous than the environment than the evrionment prevalent in 1983 and the rationale for the KAL 007 being downed.

A fear of a nuclear war, as per Asianobserve is chickenfeed compared to the Iran situation

Ignorance is bliss.

The Soviets shoot down KAL-007

The next crisis came on 1-September 1983, when a Soviet Su-15 fighter fired two air-to-air missiles at a Korean Airlines Boeing-747 airliner, Flight-007, destroying the aircraft and killing all 269-passengers. The plane had strayed off course from the US to Seoul and crossed into Soviet territory over the Kamchatka Peninsula, where a major strategic nuclear submarine base was located. The order to shoot down the airliner was given as it was about to leave Soviet airspace after flying over Sakhalin Island. The shoot-down was viewed in the US as a stark demonstration of the callous brutality
of the Soviet regime: President Reagan called it 'an act of barbarism' and Secretary of State George Schultz denounced it as deliberate mass murder. President Reagan used the after flying over Sakhalin Island. The shoot-down was viewed in the US as a stark demonstration of the callous brutality of the Soviet regime: President Reagan called it 'an act of barbarism' and Secretary of State George Schultz denounced it as deliberate mass murder.13 President Reagan used the KA:L 007 shoot down to persuade the Congress to support his request for increased defence spending and new silo busting MX ICBM

The Soviet response was to accuse the US of a deliberate act of intelligence provocation, claiming the aircraft had been identified as a US electronic intelligence collection platform—an RC-135 (Cobra Ball) reconnaissance plane. In a briefing to the media, First Deputy Defence Minister Ogarkov insisted that the real blame for the tragedy lay with the US, not the USSR. Andropov asserted that an 'outrageous military psychosis' had overtaken the US.14 Stung by the US portrayal of their actions as barbaric, the Soviet leadership persuaded themselves it was all a provocation warranting a tough response. They saw Washington's official rhetoric as adding further stresses to an already very strained relationship. As a result, there was real fear building in Moscow that the situation was so bad that war might result

http://nsarchive.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/sr56_nuclear_war_scare.pdf

It is worth reading this Special Report. It is at http://nsarchive.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/sr56_nuclear_war_scare.pdf

The author Paul Dibb is professor of strategic studies at the Australian National University. He was formerly head of the National Assessments Staff, National Intelligence Committee (1974–78), Director of the Joint Intelligence Organisation (1986–88) and Deputy Secretary of Defence (1988–91). His book, The USSR: the incomplete superpower, was published by the International Institute for Strategic Studies in 1986.


All I will say, is one should study events, before opening up with inane humbug that belies facts and the environment.

There is no shortcut to educating oneself before pontificating.

 

[Ray]

Soviet intelligence services went on alert in 1981 to watch for US preparations for launching a surprise nuclear attack against the USSR and its allies. This alert was accompanied by a new Soviet intelligence collection program, known by the acronym RYAN, to monitor indications and provide early warning of US intentions. Two years later a major war scare erupted in the USSR. This study traces the origins and scope of Operation RYAN and its relationship to the war scare.
Some observers dismissed the alert and the war scare as Soviet disinformation and scare tactics, while others viewed them as reflecting genuine fears. The latter view seems to have been closer to the truth. The KGB in the early 1980s saw the international situation--in Soviet terminology, the "correlation of world forces"--as turning against the USSR and increasing its vulnerability. These developments, along with the new US administration's tough stance toward the USSR, prompted Soviet officials and much of the populace to voice concern over the prospect of a US nuclear attack.

New information suggests that Moscow also was reacting to US-led naval and air operations, including psychological warfare missions conducted close to the Soviet Union. These operations employed sophisticated concealment and deception measures to thwart Soviet early warning systems and to offset the Soviets' ability--greatly bolstered by US spy John Walker--to read US naval communications.

In addition, this study shows how:

The war scare affected Soviet responses to the Reagan administration's Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), the administration's condemnation of the Soviet Union following the 1983 shootdown of a South Korean airliner, and a NATO nuclear-release exercise late that same year.
British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher sought to use the Soviet alert/war scare to influence President Reagan's thinking about the USSR.
Moscow's threat perceptions and Operation RYAN were influenced by memories of Hitler's 1941 surprise attack on the USSR (Operation BARBAROSSA).
The Kremlin exploited the war scare for domestic political purposes, aggravating fears among the Soviet people.
The KGB abandoned caution and eschewed proper tradecraft in collecting indications-and-warning intelligence and relied heavily on East German foreign and military intelligence to meet RYAN requirements.
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...nd-monographs/a-cold-war-conundrum/source.htm

This is what the CIA has to say of 1983 security environment of the world.

My advice is The whole purpose of education is to turn mirrors into windows.

Educate yourself.

 

[Akim]

 

[sgarg]

You are posting pictures from a simulation. What is the purpose?
The damage to MH17 aircraft has occurred in a way that could have been made by an aircraft gun. This angle cannot be discounted.

It is a known fact that Ukraine is using every trick in the book to malign Russia.

 

[asianobserve]

Once again here is the geopolitical and security environment in 1983 when the KAL 007 incident happended.



Now compare @asianobserve contention that the IranAir being shot down was more dangerous than the environment than the evrionment prevalent in 1983 and the rationale for the KAL 007 being downed.

A fear of a nuclear war, as per Asianobserve is chickenfeed compared to the Iran situation

Ignorance is bliss.



It is worth reading this Special Report. It is at http://nsarchive.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/sr56_nuclear_war_scare.pdf

The author Paul Dibb is professor of strategic studies at the Australian National University. He was formerly head of the National Assessments Staff, National Intelligence Committee (1974–78), Director of the Joint Intelligence Organisation (1986–88) and Deputy Secretary of Defence (1988–91). His book, The USSR: the incomplete superpower, was published by the International Institute for Strategic Studies in 1986.


All I will say, is one should study events, before opening up with inane humbug that belies facts and the environment.

There is no shortcut to educating oneself before pontificating.

Ah, the amazing contortion job to save the reputation of the Soviets...

Please do not compare the non-shooting MAD tension between the US and the USSR in 1983 to the actual shooting conflict in the Persian Gulf at the time. That makes you look ... what's your terms again? "Ignorant" and "pathetic."

 

[Akim]

You are posting pictures from a simulation. What is the purpose?
The damage to MH17 aircraft has occurred in a way that could have been made by an aircraft gun. This angle cannot be discounted.

It is a known fact that Ukraine is using every trick in the book to malign Russia.

I've already said that it could only be a missile of class "ground-air". Instant lesion. The gun can do it.

 

[Pandora]

You are posting pictures from a simulation. What is the purpose?
The damage to MH17 aircraft has occurred in a way that could have been made by an aircraft gun. This angle cannot be discounted.

It is a known fact that Ukraine is using every trick in the book to malign Russia.

Either you support your claim here or I have every right to use report your post button.

 

[Peter]

Are you the only one to have relatives in the US/ UK/ Canada and hence the expert?

What makes you feel that we have no relatives in the US/UK/Canda? My immediate family is in the US. But does that make me an expert?

And guess what? My relatives out there through marriage include whites, Jews, Muslim, Christian, Buddhists and so on. A greater cross section, if you will.

But still can't say, I am a sab janta or a know all.

Why do they, the Indians, who emigrate not return?

Simple answer.

Economics!

I am more fortunate than you. If anyone asks them why they do not return, they answer it most politely and are not cold at all, but very logically articulate the rationale for their becoming Americans.

Actually that is why I am saying Sir, that money is the main factor in everything and we all know which country has got the most money. I have never claimed to be an expert in anything. I only say what I had seen so far. Of course I may be wrong and I wish to stand corrected by those who know more than me.

 

[pmaitra]

The problem with you is that you post without studying any issue.

I have quoted what NASA has stated. Now are you suggesting that NASA is a Communist organisation?

Sir, you have a lot of patience.

 

[sgarg]

I've already said that it could only be a missile of class "ground-air". Instant lesion. The gun can do it.

The Kiev government is carrying out actions on instructions of CIA to implicate Russia falsely. This is to sway public opinion against Russia. The MH17 is staged event to look like Russia or Russia backed separatists shot this flight.

The fact is Kiev could have easily shot this flight. The small holes in the front section proves that the plane experienced explosion from the front and then descended and broke down. There are dozens of Kiev held locations from which this Plane could have been shot down.

I only said that the angle that a fighter shot it down cannot be discounted. This angle must be pursued as well. Motive is a very important factor in investigation and neither Russia nor separatists have any known motive to shoot at this flight.

 

[Ray]

Ah, the amazing contortion job to save the reputation of the Soviets...

Please do not compare the non-shooting MAD tension between the US and the USSR in 1983 to the actual shooting conflict in the Persian Gulf at the time. That makes you look ... what's your terms again? "Ignorant" and "pathetic."

Given that you do not understand geopolitics and its effects on geostrategy, your convoluted thoughts are understandable.

As far as the bold parts, given your capacity to fathom issue, would it be that you are talking of yourself?

 

[Akim]

The Kiev government is carrying out actions on instructions of CIA to implicate Russia falsely. This is to sway public opinion against Russia. The MH17 is staged event to look like Russia or Russia backed separatists shot this flight.

The fact is Kiev could have easily shot this flight. The small holes in the front section proves that the plane experienced explosion from the front and then descended and broke down. There are dozens of Kiev held locations from the this Plane could have been shot down.

I only said that the angle that a fighter shot it down cannot be discounted. This angle must be pursued as well. Motive is a very important factor in investigation and neither Russia nor separatists have any known motive to shoot at this flight.

Subsonic Su-25 can not rise to such a height and the pilot jet it would have definitely noticed. Such a defeat could only do rocket SAMS or R-27ER. You should not be blind to think that Putler - Holy.

 

[Ray]

Has there been any positive movement on the Inquiry that brings us closer to the truth?

What is material is the truth and not the fluff.

Who has really done this?

 

[sgarg]

Subsonic Su-25 can not rise to such a height and the pilot jet it would have definitely noticed. Such a defeat could only do rocket SAMS or R-27ER. You should not be blind to think that Putler - Holy.

Why Su-25 is always mentioned. Is Su-25 the only plane in the inventory of Ukrainian Air Force? It could be any fighter that belongs to UkAF.
Putin has delivered for Russia which none of Ukrainian leaders did. I know Ukrainians are jealous of Putin.

Just for your information, Su-24 has flight ceiling of 11000 meters. UkAF has at least 20 Su-24.