Met my Army friend: Time just flew

[Yusuf]

@Bhadra, yes the forum is predominantly defence. Defence doesn't mean just weapons but the whole gamut. He's chit chat also happens which is understandable otherwise it will get boring.

Everyone has biases one way or the other. If its just DRDO you are talking about the. Id say you are biased against the DRDO no matter what.

I don't think there is any restriction on airing opinion here, trolling does get a reprimand.

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra If its just DRDO you are talking about the. Id say you are biased against the DRDO no matter what.

I don't think there is any restriction on airing opinion here, trolling does get a reprimand.

Well that way I can definetelly point out how majority here are biased against the Indian Defense forces almost degenarating to using epthets like "foreign mal" "imports", "corrupt generals' etc without any substance which is not taken by all mods as amounting to using abusing language... then why are they not disciplned ??? I have never seen mods doing that since they are from DRDO and themselve biased..

My biase is expressed in logic and not abuses, name calling etc.. by using mod power to insult...

I understand your requirements of enhancing and maintaining memebrship and subsription to the Forum but not that way..

I was implled to respons yo your friends stroy other wise not..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I requested to compare with other 5.56mm class Rifles, Anyways..

His unit is perhaps using very old generation Insas very possible Older 1B / 1B1, Regarding Jamming issues one have to call the guy in armory to see into those Rifles, We seen these Old generation INSAS back in 2006-11, Good maintenance and good technician at armory will solve the issue of jamming..

@Kunal Biswas Ok generic info from him based on his usage. He has used AK and INSAS although both are different guns with different rounds.

1) Maintenance : AK better than INSAS
2) Accuracy: pretty good
3) Reliability major issues. The magazine he says drops off after firing a few rounds when the gun gets hot from repeated firing. The magazine is made of cheap plastic that breaks quite often.
Jamming is another problem he faces. The gun would just fire after firing a few rounds.

 

[Bhadra]

If its just DRDO you are talking about the. Id say you are biased against the DRDO no matter what.

Have you ever lived by their promised dreams like a virgin waiting under a banan tree ?
Have you worn the equipment designed by them and seen that equipment failling resulting in the death of your people ?
Have you driven a tank towards battle field made and designed by DRDO which has no ammunition to fire?

Have you fires a coverted gun which blasts off at the third round killing own soldiers?


I can ask you such thousand questions to prove that there is no such bias but the reality..

 

[Yusuf]

I requested to compare with other 5.56mm class Rifles, Anyways..

His unit is perhaps using very old generation Insas very possible Older 1B / 1B1, Regarding Jamming issues one have to call the guy in armory to see into those Rifles, We seen these Old generation INSAS back in 2006-11, Good maintenance and good technician at armory will solve the issue of jamming..

What about the magazine which is made of cheap plastic that breaks easily and falls off just like that?

It's possible he may be using older rifle. I asked him that and he said he didn't know how old the rifle was

 

[Ray]

@Ray Sir, the Mahindra jeep can do a good job to move from one place to another. But in jungles and desserts and difficult terrain, better vehicle is required.

@Yusuf,

The Jeep is an excellent vehicle.

In 1978, when we had to go up to the Tac HQ, the manmade track had such inclines that one felt that he should jump out!

I have used that in the deserts and jungles too and I prefer it to Gypsies!

 

[Ray]

@Yusuf,

What your friend has said is valuable input as far as I am concerned.

It gives the opinion/ feeling that is doing the rounds.

The feeling maybe true, but the real reason one has to find out as to why it is so?

Feedback is most essential and none can hold anyone's opinion as wrong.

It is only for those at the helm of affairs to know as to why one holds such a view.

For all you know, there will be damned good reasons too!

 

[Yusuf]

@Yusuf,

The Jeep is an excellent vehicle.

In 1978, when we had to go up to the Tac HQ, the manmade track had such inclines that one felt that he should jump out!

I have used that in the deserts and jungles too and I prefer it to Gypsies!

In 1978 we used hunters, today we are flying Sukhois and will fly FGFA in the future.
We used the Vijayanta tanks then, T 90s now.

I think there is a resistance to change. He said his seniors even today take a print out of an email to read when it should be read just off the computer and left there.

 

[Yusuf]

@Yusuf,

What your friend has said is valuable input as far as I am concerned.

It gives the opinion/ feeling that is doing the rounds.

The feeling maybe true, but the real reason one has to find out as to why it is so?

Feedback is most essential and none can hold anyone's opinion as wrong.

It is only for those at the helm of affairs to know as to why one holds such a view.

For all you know, there will be damned good reasons too!

Off course its a feedback though not detailed or technical. I am sure DRDO and the army higher ups know about it. Well that's why they have issued an RFP for an assault rifle to replace the INSAS.

 

[sayareakd]

one of the main reason for low quality is stupid "L1" standard of procurement. So if you want Lowest 1st then you can easily understand what quality will be supplied to you. Plus supplier has to make profit out of the same.

 

[Ray]

In 1978 we used hunters, today we are flying Sukhois and will fly FGFA in the future.
We used the Vijayanta tanks then, T 90s now.

I think there is a resistance to change. He said his seniors even today take a print out of an email to read when it should be read just off the computer and left there.

That is true.

But if a Hunter could do the task that a Su can do, then one need not have to change.

I wonder if a rifle does anything more that maim/ kill the enemy. And the killing range is as per the requirement of the battlefield attrition envisaged with the variety of weapons that one has. Of course, I would concede that with the depth of minefields increase, the range of the rifle be compatible. Though another factor that is important is optimising ammunition use, which is done with good Fire Control orders and people not going berserk with fear thinking more bullets would ensure that some are hits!

Yes, there is a resistance to change.

But then, while many feel that pen drives are a great help, it actually is double edged since information can be sneaked out.

Hard copies are essential for records since if hard disks fail, then records would be lost.

I wonder how many find reading a e book is fun compared to reading a real book on paper!

I have a friend from Canada who told me he 'reads' a book on his morning walk, by listening to such books through his earphones.

Well, I think odd are the ways of the world and changes do take time.

 

[Ray]

@Yusuf

The INSAS is a heavy rifle compared to many.

Then there is the raging controversy over 5.56 and 7.62 and their midrange in terms of lethality.

Then there is the issue of having dual calibre.

Also a shorter weapon without losing lethality and yet not having repeated stoppages.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The magazine is strong, you need to break it under your boots kind of strong, it does not break on falling like it used too..

===================================

The new package include Improved magazine, Improved ammo, Improved Rifle, here is what is in use and this is going for all the infantry units soon or later..

Is he using INSAS 1B or Orange 1B1 ?, The new once comes in black..

What about the magazine which is made of cheap plastic that breaks easily and falls off just like that?

It's possible he may be using older rifle. I asked him that and he said he didn't know how old the rifle was

 

[DivineHeretic]

The magazine is strong, you need to break it under your boots kind of strong, it does not break on falling like it used too..

===================================

The new package include Improved magazine, Improved ammo, Improved Rifle, here is what is in use and this is going for all the infantry units soon or later..

Is he using INSAS 1B or Orange 1B1 ?, The new once comes in black..

The problem isnt the availability of better INSAS with the Army, but rather with the armoury structure of the IA. The new improved Insas began arriving in stock of IA armoury in 2009-2010. But as of late 2012, it would take atleast 2 years before the IA runs out stocks of the old Insas. Only then will they begin equiping the Jawan with the newer rifles. Stupidity and bureacracy are synonyms in India I guess.

I have seen the newer (and admittedly smarter) INSAS with the armed police and the CRPF deployed in Guwahati since early last year. But the army jawans in camps in Assam I see still carry the orange eyesore. Infact women jawans of the CRPF are carrying the new Insas now. And some even have MP5s. Guess which force is better equiping its forces.

 

[sayareakd]

now they are making all INSAS in black color.

 

[Yusuf]

The magazine is strong, you need to break it under your boots kind of strong, it does not break on falling like it used too..

===================================

The new package include Improved magazine, Improved ammo, Improved Rifle, here is what is in use and this is going for all the infantry units soon or later..

Is he using INSAS 1B or Orange 1B1 ?, The new once comes in black..

Well I think he must be using an older one. @Ray sir will be able to talk about the Magazines as he must have used the 1st gen INSAS. And also the jamming issue.

 

[p2prada]

I am sure your army friend would be a youngster - the MacDonald Fast Food generation. No offence meant. They are all for glitz and glamour.

And if he is not a youngster, I would be really surprised.

It is true that the BPJ and helmet are real heavy. Indeed, something should be done about it as also for many other equipment that we have.

However, while efficiency is the key to professionalism, one has to see what is in the national kitty.

Nepalese can come in Land Cruisers and Indian in Mahindra jeeps. But what is the bottomline? Movement.

If this feeling is widespread within the Indian contingent then it could boil into a morale issue in the future, it not already.

 

[drkrn]

My college mate who is in the army has come on leave and I met him after 4 years. Currently he is on deputation in South Sudan.

Funny part is that I was interested to know what's going with his life and all about his experiences and he wanted to know about me and thought his life was not worth talking about.

When I told him I am admin on a defence forum and my interest in such affairs, his joy knew no bound. He could not believe people like me exist in India he said and by extension like those ok this forum who care about the army. He said I made him happy. Happy coz he got to know one citizen who is bothered about the army. He went on to say that in the US, a US Marine boarded a plane. An announcement was made by the flight attendant about the presence of the marine in their midst and how proud they were to have him on board. All passengers gave a round of applause and a person from the business class asked him to take his seat. He said this is how the US people respect their armed forces something that lacks in India. So he was pleasantly surprised about my interest and the existence of the forum.

He shared his experience of couple of weeks back. He said his car was ambushed by rebel forces and how his friend was hit by a bullet which broke his spine. He was saved, but may not walk again. This soldier who got hit is Indian Army Major. My salute to him for putting his life on the line in a foreign nation. I asked him what will happen now that the Major will not be able to walk. He said he will be given some money and will be discharged and will be left to fend for himself.

He said his deputation has been an eye opener for him. He has come in contact with Japanese, Nepalese and other nations contributing to the UN force. He said even the Nepalese soldier was better equipped than him. He was pissed with the govt "shoving" down DRDO into their throats all the time. He said we wear a bloody bullet proof vest which is 8 kgs! A helmet which gives a headache but not save the head and a rifle (INSAS) that sucks. ( @Kunal Biswas, @Ray) He said the other nations came in Land Cruisers (Nepali), another in a Nissan but the Indian govt sends them good old Mahindra Jeep! He said official UN reimbursement is 30-40lakhs for getting one vehicle but the govt sends a 3 lakh jeep and pockets the rest. Even his allowance is 1/3rd of what the UN pays per soldier on deputation. Rest goes to the govt.

Time just flew. 3 hours just vanished. I hope to meet him again later next week and hopefully for a longer time.

oh god govt even eats the un pay to the soldiers

 

[drkrn]

I value your and your friends sentiments. Defence Forum you say ?? I disagree with you. DFI as have senn for past two years is either a defnse chit chat thread or being used as a mediam of DRDO propaganda. Majority of them can not withstand any or slightest criticism and then gang up on parochial basis. Other memebers (many) are on the forum to project a perticular type of equipment or rather they are seller. There is a real lack of academician or experienced members on the forum.

In comparision PDF has lots of experiemced memebers and veterans.

IDF perhaps also reflects on general lack of internet facilities in acive units and with their officers who most of the time do not have time for such activities. I have seen DRDO labs and offices where the office starts with internets and closes with internet.




Army and the govt does try to look after their disabled soldier. With this kind of disabilities where disabilities go beyong 80 per cent on is discharged from service by the medical board with 100 per cent of the last pay drawn plus disability pension. Well being disabled or killed is part of the game and responsibilities.



yes, It is eye opener in many ways. Their are Armies such as those of African states and Asian states who are in much more pathetic conditions. Their are countries like those of Latin America such as Uruguay who keep Army only to send them to UN miltary missions. Then there are Holland and Scandinavians who send their part time civilians as soldiers as a means of providing employment to their civilians. Then there professional Armies such as India, Pakistan and BD who send their good regulars.

Allmost all UN contingents are being run bey Indians, Pakistanies or BD contigents, rest all INMO are just number fillers.



A country send a contingent or observers and they are equipped as per the norms of their countries. UN demands are generic such as one mechanised company. UN does not lay down the equipment. There are countries which buy equipment solely for the purpose of sending it for UN mission and at home they have no equipment for their own Army. Nepal is an example. Others send equipment as per existing equipment. Their are countries like Newzealand whoes soldiers come mendatarily with nuclear protection kits !!



Who is the IAF, IN and IA is not pissed off with D O D O ... Ha Ha Ha... I am glad I find a company..




Mission is accomplished with Manhindras and Gypsies may be except for deserts of Sudan.

UN does reimburse the usage cost of equpment and not the cost of equipment and they are no such fools that they will pay Rs 30 laks for an equipment of Rs 3 laks.

Even his allowance is 1/3rd of what the UN pays per soldier on deputation. Rest goes to the govt. [/quote]

Your friend is grossely illinformed.

UN pay $ 1100/- pm for his services but GOI pays the officer $2100/- pm through an internal arrangements. Other third world countries such as Pakistan pays what UN pays $1100 pm. African countries pay half this amount to their officers. Many other countries such as USA or UK pay their officers about $ 3500 as per their national standards.



when you meet him again do tell him that as an officer he is supposed to be better informed..

yes, Ray sir's comments were unwarranted and unkind..

about your comments stating un will not pay 30 lakh for 3 lakh equipment-

usually any pvt body(here its un) will pay pay money as in contract irrespective of equipment u use.the 30 lakh may be for buying a vehicle for the given contract and its your headache whether u buy a plane or cycle with that

about the pay govt gives to our soldiers,can u provide some link pls

 

[Ray]

Well I think he must be using an older one. @Ray sir will be able to talk about the Magazines as he must have used the 1st gen INSAS. And also the jamming issue.

I saw the newer versions, but at a distance when I went to the unit. It appeared robust and the furniture appeared better than the earlier versions. But then I had not gone to check at close quarters and so I cannot say for sure.

If this feeling is widespread within the Indian contingent then it could boil into a morale issue in the future, it not already.

Morale is the basically the interactivity and confidence that one has with his superiors and vice versa.

Indeed, all want better equipment, but then people are aware that it really boils down to the task that equipment is supposed to perform and how well does it perform.

For instance, in the earlier days when the car engine was not calibrated by a computer, everyone could repair it even by the roadside. Today, if a car breaks down, you require to call the specialist mechanics through the Helpline. Cars are more efficient today, but very difficult to do a DIY as one could do in the earlier days.

The fancier the equipment, the greater is the maintenance back up staff, logistic chain and spares stocking issues and carriage. That is one of the reason why there is always this problem of 'teeth to tail' ratio.

I presume, what one loses on the roundabouts, one makes up on the swings.

oh god govt even eats the un pay to the soldiers

No, it would be wrong to feel that the Govt 'eats' up the UN pay.

Here is something that indicates so:

Besides the UN medal and foreign experience, each soldier gets $ 1,000 a month in addition to his pay and allowances.

http://www.rediff.co.in/news/2000/sep/25ashok.htm