MBTs Tank Crews : Survibality and Comfort!!!

[indian_sukhoi]

Started this topic to discuss about Tank crews. Got a lot of questions to ask!!!


How do you all rate Crew survivability and comfort of Soviet/Eastern Tanks against Western Tanks. Read in a article that M1 has the most comfortable position.

Russian T-72s Tanks are said to be have a lot of flaws. Back in Gulf War, No crew member had survived. Every time they were hit the ammo and fuel exploded usually blowing the turret off and killing the entire crew.


Fire
Fire is the worst enemy for a Tank crew. Do crew wear any special Fire-resistant uniform. Are there any escape hatch for the Driver and Loader to escape?



MBT Crew Comfortability
Temperature in tank would be very high. Are they any measure taken reduces crewman heat stress and provides increased comfort during operations in hot environments, Like attach a Mini-AC in the compartment.
Maybe a Special Cooling Uniform to reduce the Heat!!!

 

[Damian]

The only MBT that was and is mass produced and have all ammunition stored in isolated magazines with blow off panels is M1 Abrams. There was not even single accident when even one crew member was injured or killed due to ammo cook off. Ammunition storage system is very simple and reliabale.

The problem with T-72 is not ammunition stored in autoloader carousel, but ammunition stored in hull outside autoloader.

The T-72 and T-90 series autoloader is placed very low thus hard to hit, it is actuall fact that T-72/90 series are more safe with ammunition only in autoloader than T-64, T-80 and T-84 series where autoloader have vertical cassettes for propelant charges and horizontal cassettes for projectiles, where in T-72/90 series both projectile and propelant charge are stored horizontal, thus very low.

Other MBT over the world have only some part of ammunition stored in isolated magazine with blow off panels (Leo2 15 from 42 total, Leclerc 22 from 40 total, K2 ~14 from 40 total, Merkava Mk4 10 from 48 total etc.) or ammunition is stored only in simple not isolated racks (C1 Ariete for example), or ammunition is partially stored in "armored bins" (Challenger 1 or Challenger 2 have propelant charges in "armored bins" and projectiles in not isolated racks inside turret and hull).

Fire is the worst enemy for a Tank crew. Do crew wear any special Fire-resistant uniform. Are there any escape hatch for the Driver and Loader to escape?

Recently US Army and ARNG fielded new MSS uniform system that use nomex protection for whole body (even face is protected).

Both driver and loader (if there is loader in tank) have their own hatches. Some tanks have also evac hatch in hull belly.

MBT Crew Comfortability
Temperature in tank would be very high. Are they any measure taken reduces crewman heat stress and provides increased comfort during operations in hot environments, Like attach a Mini-AC in the compartment.
Maybe a Special Cooling Uniform to reduce the Heat!!!

Some tanks have AC some not.

For example M1A1 tanks do not have AC, but crew can wear cooling vests that are connected to tanks NBC protection system that pumps cold air in to crew compartment (so it is some form of simple AC), the newer M1A2SEP's have AC system in form of VCSU mounted in turret back and TMS inside vehicle + new MSS uniforms can be connected to vehicle AC system providing additional individual cooling for each crew member.

 

[Damian]

Oh I forgot to mention that T-84M Oplot-M (Object 478DU10) and T-90MS (Object 188M) have part of ammunition not stored in hull but in bolted to turret rear armored box.

It increase safety and space inside hull, but it is also immposible to reload ammunition stored in this boxes in to autoloader from vehicle inside.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Recently US Army and ARNG fielded new MSS uniform system that use nomex protection for whole body (even face is protected).

Before my time. I trained as a driver and loader on the M60 when it was the MBT. Comfort: Space inside was considerably larger than T-72, I believe. I was terrified of getting caught between the turret and hull if someone switched on the power and the turret turned.:shocked: (Just my phobia.) I was sure to clench my fingers together well while putting a round in the chamber, so one of them wouldn't get ripped off. Another phobia. The fire button on the coax MG was hard to reach, and you couldn't perform immediate action in case of a jam. It was cold in the winter but the space above the engine stayed warm for hours, for a good place to sleep. If the air was freezing, the deck was hot, so on average you had comfort.:-D

After a night firing on the range, our crew (4) went over to a tent to be debriefed by the instructors. I was drenched in sweat. The chief instructor said to me, "You must be the loader."

Only thing I remember about being a driver was setting the brakes too hard one time. The TC kept saying, "Driver, move forward", until I could disengage them, almost giving myself a hernia. Starting the engine was tricky sometimes (cold start). Don't remember driving training, just got in and drove as TC directed. Fords at Fort Bragg were shallow. You could drive over the scrub oaks and around the longleaf pines.

The comms in our helmets were controlled by a switch on one side. Without fail there would be a crew who would think they were talking to each other on the intercom, but would be actually transmitting over the air about getting laid the night before or something. Our CO one night had to stop the column and go from tank to tank to find out who the miscreants were. He said there were Soviet subs in the Atlantic who were monitoring us!

After we got the M1 Abrams, I became a chemical operations NCO.

 

[utubekhiladi]

@W.G.Ewald did u see action with m60?

 

[Damian]

@W.G.Ewald on what M60 You was serving? M60? M60A1 (AOS?, Passive, RISE-Passive?), M60A2, maybe M60A3 or M60A3TTS?

I was terrified of getting caught between the turret and hull if someone switched on the power and the turret turned.

(Just my phobia.)

It is actually very serious problem if turret is not secured and start turning, we have some accidents here in Poland where driver head in T-72M1 or PT-91 tanks was... well crushed by turining turret that have unreliabale safety messures.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

@W.G.Ewald did u see action with m60?

No, I did not. In the Vietnam Era I went to the Armor School OCS but was kicked out.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

@W.G.Ewald on what M60 You was serving? M60? M60A1 (AOS?, Passive, RISE-Passive?), M60A2, maybe M60A3 or M60A3TTS?

These tanks were of the North Carolina National Guard (252 Armor) just before they were turned in when M1 Abrams were issued ca. 1983. I spent some time in the motor pool "detailing" the M60s before they were sold to the next country to use them.:-D

After a little searching, it appears we had the M60A3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_Patton#M60A3_Series

 

[bhramos]

Finnish Leopard 2a4

you can see the escape hatch and its uses i this Video

 

[bhramos]

A T-55 Escape hatch

 

[p2prada]

The comms in our helmets were controlled by a switch on one side. Without fail there would be a crew who would think they were talking to each other on the intercom, but would be actually transmitting over the air about getting laid the night before or something. Our CO one night had to stop the column and go from tank to tank to find out who the miscreants were. He said there were Soviet subs in the Atlantic who were monitoring us!

It is possible. There is a method called Tropospheric scattering which is used in communications. Current American satellites are rumoured to capture information this from space. Russian satellites as well.

With the right amount of power, you can be talking directly to the Soviet Subs. You could say you are giving away your position.

This was the method used by NORAD as well. I am sure the Soviets were more interested in that though.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

There was an escape hatch in our M60A3, but we never trained to use it.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

It is possible. There is a method called Tropospheric scattering which is used in communications. Current American satellites are rumoured to capture information this from space. Russian satellites as well.

With the right amount of power, you can be talking directly to the Soviet Subs. You could say you are giving away your position.

This was the method used by NORAD as well. I am sure the Soviets were more interested in that though.

OPSEC is always important; I shouldn't joke about it.

 

[indian_sukhoi]

The only MBT that was and is mass produced and have all ammunition stored in isolated magazines with blow off panels is M1 Abrams. There was not even single accident when even one crew member was injured or killed due to ammo cook off. Ammunition storage system is very simple and reliabale.

The problem with T-72 is not ammunition stored in autoloader carousel, but ammunition stored in hull outside autoloader.

The T-72 and T-90 series autoloader is placed very low thus hard to hit, it is actuall fact that T-72/90 series are more safe with ammunition only in autoloader than T-64, T-80 and T-84 series where autoloader have vertical cassettes for propelant charges and horizontal cassettes for projectiles, where in T-72/90 series both projectile and propelant charge are stored horizontal, thus very low.

I thought Israeli Merkava were the first one to have blow off panels.



I do realized that T-72 is conjusted with no space, But is there any chance relocating the ammunition in blow off panels. T-90s seems to have quite space to do that. Are they making any developments?

Can we make space for Blast doors my limiting the payload to minimum. Has you told, T-90s could store ammunition turret near armored box.

Sir,....Even if its ammo kept ed in horizontal cassettes, They are still likely to be Hit right?

During Chechan War, Russian suffered heavy losses. Most of them were T-72s and T-80s. Were they autoloader had vertical cassettes for propelant charges?
What kind of T-72 versions did Iraq used in 1991 War?

Before my time. I trained as a driver and loader on the M60 when it was the MBT. Comfort: Space inside was considerably larger than T-72, I believe. I was terrified of getting caught between the turret and hull if someone switched on the power and the turret turned.:shocked: (Just my phobia.) I was sure to clench my fingers together well while putting a round in the chamber, so one of them wouldn't get ripped off. Another phobia. The fire button on the coax MG was hard to reach, and you couldn't perform immediate action in case of a jam. It was cold in the winter but the space above the engine stayed warm for hours, for a good place to sleep. If the air was freezing, the deck was hot, so on average you had comfort.:-D

After a night firing on the range, our crew (4) went over to a tent to be debriefed by the instructors. I was drenched in sweat. The chief instructor said to me, "You must be the loader."

Sir,............M60 thus has quite large internal volume than the T-72s.

The job of the loader is a rather dangerous position to begin with. Have to maintain speed and at same time be carefull of not using your hand in the loader
Survivability of the Loader would be very less in case of Tank Hit.

Being a Submariner or Tank crew is the worst part, Has far i know.

 

[Damian]

I thought Israeli Merkava were the first one to have blow off panels.

The first and only Merkava tank to have blow off panel is Merkava Mk4, and such panel is only for one turret bustle magazine for only 10 rounds.

The first MBT that have all ammunition stored in isolated magazines with blow off panels (this means all magazines were isolated and equipped with blow off panels) was M1 Abrams, and this don't changed even today.

I do realized that T-72 is conjusted with no space, But is there any chance relocating the ammunition in blow off panels. T-90s seems to have quite space to do that. Are they making any developments?

Immpossible without new turret or completely redesigned hull, either way this means completely new tank.

Can we make space for Blast doors my limiting the payload to minimum. Has you told, T-90s could store ammunition turret near armored box.

I think that with current design it would be impractical.

Sir,....Even if its ammo kept ed in horizontal cassettes, They are still likely to be Hit right?

There is allways such possiblity.

During Chechan War, Russian suffered heavy losses. Most of them were T-72s and T-80s. Were they autoloader had vertical cassettes for propelant charges?

In case of T-72's, if ammunition would be only in autoloader cassettes then the losses and possibility of ammo cook off would be minimal, in case of T-80, propelant charges in autoloader are stored vertical and projectiles horizontal, the autoloader is similiar of not same as in T-64 tank. So even without ammunition stored inside hull but outside autoloader, probability of losses will still be high.

This is 3d model of T-72 and T-90 tanks autoloader, there are of course some differences between different versions but the over all design is same.

This is autoloader type used in T-64, T-80 and T-84 series, as You can see projectiles are stored very low and horizontal, while propelant charges are stored highly exposed in vertical position.

What kind of T-72 versions did Iraq used in 1991 War?

Iraq used T-72M and T-72M1 manufactured in USSR, Poland and Chechoslovakia + locally manufactured Assad Babil that was a local variation of T-72M or T-72M1.

Sir,............M60 thus has quite large internal volume than the T-72s.

The job of the loader is a rather dangerous position to begin with. Have to maintain speed and at same time be carefull of not using your hand in the loader
Survivability of the Loader would be very less in case of Tank Hit.

Being a Submariner or Tank crew is the worst part, Has far i know.

It's not that bad.

Watch this:


It is about Fort Knox Armor School Center in 2001, it shows a USMC cadets training to be M1A1 tanks crew members, very interesting vide showing how crew is trained.

 

[Damian]

More about these autoloaders, this time at work:

 

[Damian]

This will be interesting for you guys, it seems to be some sort of US Army training aid videos for M1 tanks crew members, very interesting.

 

[Damian]

And some more videos from Fort Knox Armor School Center (currently Armor School Center was relocated to Fort Benning).


Enjoy.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Damian

And some more videos from Fort Knox Armor School Center (currently Armor School Center was relocated to Fort Benning).

Thanks, I did not know that.

 

[Damian]

Yup, BRAC decision, Armor School Center and even the armored vehicles museum are now in Fort Benning, in Fort Knox there are still base and General Patton Museum.