Massive U.S. Fleet Nears Disputed Islands

[aerokan]

So the Chinese want to create the Borg? Not a bad idea.

It is a bad idea. The best survival of any race depends on it's limited differences. Neither homogenity nor having completely different race wouldn't work out. Homogenous entities looks easier to manage and sounds cool, but when a epidemic strikes, they are the first to vanish.

Exactly which country is China trying to "engulf and annex"? Taiwan?

The Chinese mindset is in tune with how geopolitics work. They have learned from the Westerners who came before them, and we in turn should learn from them. Their mindset is not "medieval" but rather realistic.

Dude.. i am responding to your question why China shouldn't be given a free hand to conquer entire east asia. I am giving assumptions with a what if to your what if question. I am not saying that it already is (although it is already behaving like one). Do u need a more bigger proof when China is trying to claim the 3/4th of the sea which they don't control?? It is pretty obvious to any sane person that it is already moving in the direction of trying to grab more and more territory. Their 'Realistic' policy is far from reality. We don't need to learn from Chinese. We just have to turn their stupidity into our opportunities

 

[Ray]

The problems that China has with the ASEAN countries is not trade, but over the issue of claiming the whole SCS as a part of China since it is said to have great economic 'treasures'.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Does this mean that this will escalate the situation to a war?

 

[mayfair]

What is so wrong with China having a free reign to conquer East Asia and bring it under their influence? Historically, it was always their sphere of influence and ASEAN countries were their tributaries. The U.S., when they were emerging as a great power in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, did the exact same thing in their own neighborhood in the Caribbean and Latin America; in fact they were much more blatant and aggressive about it then the Chinese are today, but perhaps times have changed since them. Eventually, India too should carve out a sphere of influence for itself in South Asia and the Indian Ocean region.

Listen to yourself- conquer? bring it under there influence? Do people of those countries get no say in how their lives are to be run?

Historically China was carved up like a water melon by the stronger powers, will they accept going back to that?

Historically Japanese were pillaging Manchuria, Inner Mongolia and Southern-Coastal areas of China, will Chinese prefer going back to that and relive Nanjing all over again?

Historically, India was a British colony and ruled by pleny of despots before that. Would we the people of India want to go back to that?

I wonder if you gave it any thought before hitting the key board and spouting this codsawallop.

Confrontation with China is futile and pointless in the long run. Instead, both India and China should eventually recognize each others' spheres of influence. In the meantime, we can use the scepter of an Indo-U.S. "Alliance" to scare China, but such an alliance is not an end in itself.

A trifle detail dickiebird, We are not the ones looking for a confrontation- China is. They refuse to recognise our interests while belligerently demanding that we acceede to theirs. So what do you suggest we do..bend over?

 

[Zebra]

What is so wrong with China having a free reign to conquer East Asia and bring it under their influence? Historically, it was always their sphere of influence and ASEAN countries were their tributaries. The U.S., when they were emerging as a great power in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, did the exact same thing in their own neighborhood in the Caribbean and Latin America; in fact they were much more blatant and aggressive about it then the Chinese are today, but perhaps times have changed since them. Eventually, India too should carve out a sphere of influence for itself in South Asia and the Indian Ocean region.

Confrontation with China is futile and pointless in the long run. Instead, both India and China should eventually recognize each others' spheres of influence. In the meantime, we can use the scepter of an Indo-U.S. "Alliance" to scare China, but such an alliance is not an end in itself.

Nothing wrong dude.

In fact I will love it if they do it in India.

Someone said it, 'hindi chini bhai bhai'.

 

[Zero_Wing]

China dont want tributes, but trade opportunities. The burgeoning trade between China and ASEAN is a good exemple.

Some people are just so deep in their XXXX to realise this. I dont recall Malaysia ever paid tributes to China though...

But in your case same thing

 

[roma]

Give Japan a free hand and they are enough for Chinese,
I dont want India to be part of any security pact in Asia-Pacific region, we need to maintain our non aligned position :cool2:

while i agree with your first sentence, i feel very sorry for india if they were to take your second sentence seriously !

 

[roma]

Does this mean that this will escalate the situation to a war?

if the usa has the guts , they should take china on , in a limited way - it will be good for the world ......errr where is henry , i mean kissinger ? or zbigniew ?

 

[W.G.Ewald]

if the usa has the guts , they should take china on , in a limited way - it will be good for the world ......errr where is henry , i mean kissinger ? or zbigniew ?

Kissinger Assails 'Deplorable' Comments on China by Both U.S. Candidates - NYTimes.com

CIA: Japan's Senkaku claim the strongest | The Japan Times Online

 

[Zebra]

if the usa has the guts , they should take china on , in a limited way - it will be good for the world ......errr where is henry , i mean kissinger ? or zbigniew ?

 

[W.G.Ewald]

^^
So Kissinger is a Freemason

 

[civfanatic]

In short, though I may have missed it, but I sure would like to know if indeed these countries were under Chinese (Han to be precise) sphere of influence or tributaries of China.

It is well-known that Korea, Vietnam, Japan, and most countries of Southeast Asia were tributaries of Imperial China, particularly under the Ming Dynasty.

An interesting link:
Tribute and Trade

 

[civfanatic]

It is a bad idea. The best survival of any race depends on it's limited differences. Neither homogenity nor having completely different race wouldn't work out. Homogenous entities looks easier to manage and sounds cool, but when a epidemic strikes, they are the first to vanish.

Do you think that the Chinese are "racially" homogeneous?

What is "race" anyway?

Dude.. i am responding to your question why China shouldn't be given a free hand to conquer entire east asia. I am giving assumptions with a what if to your what if question. I am not saying that it already is (although it is already behaving like one). Do u need a more bigger proof when China is trying to claim the 3/4th of the sea which they don't control?? It is pretty obvious to any sane person that it is already moving in the direction of trying to grab more and more territory. Their 'Realistic' policy is far from reality. We don't need to learn from Chinese. We just have to turn their stupidity into our opportunities

Nations rise to Great Power status through expansionist policies and by actively exerting their influence abroad, not by being passive and isolationist.

So what if the Chinese are trying to claim the South China Sea? They are doing so because they have the capacity to do so and is in their national interest to do so. We should do the same and eventually bring the whole Indian Ocean under our fold.

 

[civfanatic]

Listen to yourself- conquer? bring it under there influence? Do people of those countries get no say in how their lives are to be run?

No, not really. The geopolitical world is fundamentally anarchic. In this world-lake, there are no real laws except that of matsya-nyaya, the eating of small fish by the bigger fish. Eventually the bigger fish die, new smaller fishes are born, and some of the older fishes develop bigger appetites. And the cycle continues indefinitely.

Historically China was carved up like a water melon by the stronger powers, will they accept going back to that?

Historically Japanese were pillaging Manchuria, Inner Mongolia and Southern-Coastal areas of China, will Chinese prefer going back to that and relive Nanjing all over again?

Historically, India was a British colony and ruled by pleny of despots before that. Would we the people of India want to go back to that?

I wonder if you gave it any thought before hitting the key board and spouting this codsawallop.

I was not aware that the expansion of one's sphere of influence equated to genocide and exploitation, and I'm not sure what gave you the idea that it does.

A trifle detail dickiebird, We are not the ones looking for a confrontation- China is. They refuse to recognise our interests while belligerently demanding that we acceede to theirs. So what do you suggest we do..bend over?

I suggest that we act more like China and aggressively pursue our own interests, rather than complaining about how China "refuses" to recongize ours (which they by no means are required to do).

 

[asianobserve]

No, not really. The geopolitical world is fundamentally anarchic. In this world-lake, there are no real laws except that of matsya-nyaya, the eating of small fish by the bigger fish. Eventually the bigger fish die, new smaller fishes are born, and some of the older fishes develop bigger appetites. And the cycle continues indefinitely.

ASEAN will continue to resist being completely under the influence of China. That you can be assured of it. Even China's long time allies in Burma are trying to distance themselves from China's complete embrace. Why is that so? Do you think the other ASEAN countries that are more affluent than Myanmar will succomb to China when Myanmar only very recently is wiggling itself away from it?

China cannot consider South East, East and North East Asia as its region of influence. On a per capita basis a lot of us are richer than that "power." So as long as America is able to project power we will use it as a hedge against anybody from Asia who will try to lord it over us. In the meantime ASEAN is growing and one day could be sufficiently affluent and integrated to balance, together with US (even a weakened one), Japan or SoKor (either or both of them) China.

 

[mayfair]

No, not really. The geopolitical world is fundamentally anarchic. In this world-lake, there are no real laws except that of matsya-nyaya, the eating of small fish by the bigger fish. Eventually the bigger fish die, new smaller fishes are born, and some of the older fishes develop bigger appetites. And the cycle continues indefinitely.

Says it all really. What's a big fish today can be a minion tomorrow...just like the erstwhile colonial empires and while the big fish do develop bigger appetites, they never bite off more than they can chew..this is the fundamental aspect of the cycle of life.

I was not aware that the expansion of one's sphere of influence equated to genocide and exploitation, and I'm not sure what gave you the idea that it does.

Of I don't know, your attempt to justify the expansion of spehre of influence over an unwilling populace. When that happens, it leads to resistance, which in turn leads to?? The use of force, forcible exploitation and eventually genocide of non-conformants. History is full of examples- the likes of which either you choose to overlook or refuse to learn from

I suggest that we act more like China and aggressively pursue our own interests, rather than complaining about how China "refuses" to recongize ours (which they by no means are required to do).

Nor are we required to recognize Chicom interests. They are free to agressively pursue their interests as they would like and we reserve the right to respond to that agression in the way we deem fit. Ditto for the governments and people of the countries they are trying to overwhelm.

And no--being a tributary state once upon a timedoes not make you a permanent subordinate.

 

[civfanatic]

Says it all really. What's a big fish today can be a minion tomorrow...just like the erstwhile colonial empires and while the big fish do develop bigger appetites, they never bite off more than they can chew..this is the fundamental aspect of the cycle of life.

Is China biting off "more than they can chew"?

Of I don't know, your attempt to justify the expansion of spehre of influence over an unwilling populace. When that happens, it leads to resistance, which in turn leads to?? The use of force, forcible exploitation and eventually genocide of non-conformants. History is full of examples- the likes of which either you choose to overlook or refuse to learn from

I don't think you understand what a sphere of influence is. Its not the same as colonization or imperialism, and need not include direct or even indirect rule. Its simply a region designated by an influential power as its area of interest.

The wiki article does a fairly decent job of explaining it: Sphere of influence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nor are we required to recognize Chicom interests. They are free to agressively pursue their interests as they would like and we reserve the right to respond to that agression in the way we deem fit. Ditto for the governments and people of the countries they are trying to overwhelm.

My argument was that India and China should eventually recognize each others' respective spheres of influence, since a conflict between two neighboring, emerging powers would be ruinous and futile. This would be similar to what France and Britain did in the 19th century. This implies that India should first aggressively pursue its own national interests in a manner similar to China and achieve rough strategic parity with China. It is only once this parity is achieved, that such mutual recognition and cooperation with India will be in China's interest. The current status quo is in China's favor.

 

[mayfair]

Is China biting off "more than they can chew"?

China should not be biting off at all. Those are sovreign countries and not some minnows to be swallowed by a whale.

I don't think you understand what a sphere of influence is. Its not the same as colonization or imperialism, and need not include direct or even indirect rule. Its simply a region designated by an influential power as its area of interest.

The wiki article does a fairly decent job of explaining it: Sphere of influence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am fully aware what it means. Thank you very much. It's your attempt at justifying China's belliegerence in the name of expanding its spehere of influence (whereas it's far from that- it is plain simple agression), is what I find disagreeable.

My argument was that India and China should eventually recognize each others' respective spheres of influence, since a conflict between two neighboring, emerging powers would be ruinous and futile. This would be similar to what France and Britain did in the 19th century. This implies that India should first aggressively pursue its own national interests in a manner similar to China and achieve rough strategic parity with China. It is only once this parity is achieved, that such mutual recognition and cooperation with India will be in China's interest. The current status quo is in China's favor.

India did recognise China's spehere of influence, which is why we refrained from intervening in Eastern Asia among other places till recently. But China refuses to recognise ours at any point- claiming on one hand that South China sea belongs to China, and declaring on the other hand that Indian Ocean will not be allowed to become an Indian ocean, for example.

It is not the same as Anglo-French agreement in the 19th century. It was simply the case of two colonial powers, who after fighing over colonial possessions, agreed to a stop trying to replace each others as the masters of the land neither owned, so that they could focus their efforts on exploiting the colonies.

But it is true that we need to attain a sense of pursuing our strategic interests, but then Chicoms have enough strategic assets (Commies, Maoists to name a few) in this country to prevent that from fully happening. Of course that we cannot disallow this is to our perenial disadvantage. But it does not mean that stop resisting Chicom belligerence and bend over each time they come sniffing.