Make in India

Hari Sud

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Japan in race to make India aviation hub

Japan’s aviation investment intentions in India centre around an amphibious aircraft US-2 produced by ShinMaywa company. Its appeal lies in its pitch for bagging the order — complete manufacturing of the aircraft in India, training of Indian aviation engineers and shifting of some of the company’s production for Boeing and Airbus to India.

The nub is India will have to invest close to Rs 15,000 crore in the manufacturing facility, but the Japanese have assured that exports to other countries should make up for the initial investment.

For India, the offer of US-2 goes beyond a simple military sale of equipment. Of the 15 US-2 aircraft, three will be wholly manufactured in Japan but the next five will be made in India with Indians as apprentices. The next six aircraft will be wholly made in India by Indian engineers.

It has promised to plough offsets into building navigational infrastructure in coastal stations where US-2 will be based. The proposal also assures an engine production facility in the country headed by Rolls Royce, which also supplies engines to C-17, C-130 and P-8i aircraft being used by the Indian Air Force. If all goes well, the Japanese also have plans to design and develop in India a 19-seater civilian aircraft.



https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/japan-in-race-to-make-india-aviation-hub/799713.html
Japan is bound by constitution not to export military hardware anywhere, hence previously US-2 deal was stuck on these conditions. Japan has not modified any part of its constitution , hence this news could be glorious ‘fake news’.
 

Chinmoy

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Japan is bound by constitution not to export military hardware anywhere, hence previously US-2 deal was stuck on these conditions. Japan has not modified any part of its constitution , hence this news could be glorious ‘fake news’.
This has been kept on hold by India instead of Japan. So there is technically no objection on behalf of Japan if deal goes through.
 

sorcerer

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Japan is bound by constitution not to export military hardware anywhere, hence previously US-2 deal was stuck on these conditions. Japan has not modified any part of its constitution , hence this news could be glorious ‘fake news’.
Well!! that would come into effect I guess..
cuz a lot of details about the PROPOSAL is floating around.
and...officials dont make such glorious rumors unless them is sure of one thing or other!
 

IndianHawk

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Japan in race to make India aviation hub

Japan’s aviation investment intentions in India centre around an amphibious aircraft US-2 produced by ShinMaywa company. Its appeal lies in its pitch for bagging the order — complete manufacturing of the aircraft in India, training of Indian aviation engineers and shifting of some of the company’s production for Boeing and Airbus to India.

The nub is India will have to invest close to Rs 15,000 crore in the manufacturing facility, but the Japanese have assured that exports to other countries should make up for the initial investment.

For India, the offer of US-2 goes beyond a simple military sale of equipment. Of the 15 US-2 aircraft, three will be wholly manufactured in Japan but the next five will be made in India with Indians as apprentices. The next six aircraft will be wholly made in India by Indian engineers.

It has promised to plough offsets into building navigational infrastructure in coastal stations where US-2 will be based. The proposal also assures an engine production facility in the country headed by Rolls Royce, which also supplies engines to C-17, C-130 and P-8i aircraft being used by the Indian Air Force. If all goes well, the Japanese also have plans to design and develop in India a 19-seater civilian aircraft.



https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/japan-in-race-to-make-india-aviation-hub/799713.html
I'm tired of these ridiculous headlines. How will we become an aviation hub by manufacturing 12 niche aircrafts??

The same goes for mmrca drama. Building 100 military jets by kits means nothing. By that measures we have already build hundreds of MIGs and jags and su30mki etc and yet we have not become aviation hub . Ya but building a few 100 more or a dozen in case of shinmaywa will do the job this time!

The only path to become aviation hub is
1) build hundreds of lca mk1a and mwf
2) hundreds of AMCA and AURA .
3) build hundreds of Saras and indegenios regional jet.
4) build our own transportation aircraft.
5) force boing and airbus to manufacture complete planes in India for civilian airlines demand.

Anything else is complete and utter bullshit.


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Shaitan

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I'm tired of these ridiculous headlines. How will we become an aviation hub by manufacturing 12 niche aircrafts??

The same goes for mmrca drama. Building 100 military jets by kits means nothing. By that measures we have already build hundreds of MIGs and jags and su30mki etc and yet we have not become aviation hub . Ya but building a few 100 more or a dozen in case of shinmaywa will do the job this time!

The only path to become aviation hub is
1) build hundreds of lca mk1a and mwf
2) hundreds of AMCA and AURA .
3) build hundreds of Saras and indegenios regional jet.
4) build our own transportation aircraft.
5) force boing and airbus to manufacture complete planes in India for civilian airlines demand.

Anything else is complete and utter bullshit.


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I dont think these are utter bullshit. Huge opportunity for Mahindra. They like the TATAs, Adanis, Reliance, etc. want to continue up the chain, to high margin items which include the likes of whole platform production.
 

S.A.T.A

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If we are to emerge as a aerospace power, then HAL has to show both vision and leadership. Private players will play an increasingly role but the public sector giant would be at the vanguard. Why is DRDO at the forefront of defense aviation research when it should have been HAL. For unforeseen reasons HAL remained content with assembling than go ahead with research and development. However I think things are changing for the better. I wish HAL would take ownership of future development and upgrade of LCA Tejas and make it a bedrock of its aviation future.
 

sorcerer

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I'm tired of these ridiculous headlines. How will we become an aviation hub by manufacturing 12 niche aircrafts??

The same goes for mmrca drama. Building 100 military jets by kits means nothing. By that measures we have already build hundreds of MIGs and jags and su30mki etc and yet we have not become aviation hub . Ya but building a few 100 more or a dozen in case of shinmaywa will do the job this time!

The only path to become aviation hub is
1) build hundreds of lca mk1a and mwf
2) hundreds of AMCA and AURA .
3) build hundreds of Saras and indegenios regional jet.
4) build our own transportation aircraft.
5) force boing and airbus to manufacture complete planes in India for civilian airlines demand.

Anything else is complete and utter bullshit.


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Let the first orders teeth..
The infrastructure they set up in India will defenitly be good enough.
Also the article says about them Japs planning civilian verjon of aircraft.

let the sweeteners stick yo!
 

Shaitan

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If we are to emerge as a aerospace power, then HAL has to show both vision and leadership. Private players will play an increasingly role but the public sector giant would be at the vanguard. Why is DRDO at the forefront of defense aviation research when it should have been HAL. For unforeseen reasons HAL remained content with assembling than go ahead with research and development. However I think things are changing for the better. I wish HAL would take ownership of future development and upgrade of LCA Tejas and make it a bedrock of its aviation future.
HAL tried after Marut. There were several, several designs they wanted to produce, but MIG21 route was taken killing anything Marut gained. You should see some of the designs they wanted to produce then.

HAL is actually taking lead now. Trying to be a lead integrator only, LCA being the first with module construction I believe. It is also trying to give it's older designs like ALH to the private sector for civ use. Maybe not as hand holding as DRDO, but they dont need to help their future competitors.

As far as LCA, MARK1A was HAL's pitch to the user. Using drdo ip/platform with outside subsystems required by the user, worked.
 
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S.A.T.A

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HAL tried after Marut. There were several, several designs they want to produce, but MIG21 route was taken killing anything Marut gained.

HAL is actually taking lead now. Trying to be a lead integrator only. And trying to give it's older designs like ALH to the private sector. They dont need to help their future competitors.
I once heard an interview in Malayalam of former ISRO chairman Madhavan Nair, about how they developed a ecosystem of suppliers of critical engineering solutions for the launch systems. Many of these suppliers, both private and PSU, were not even interested in making the key engineering and technological leap, but ISRO's perseverance by providing them design, training their personnel on key machining skills, training their mgmt in quality control, all eventually paid off. HAL could take a leaf out of ISRO's vast experience and profit from it.
 

Shaitan

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I once heard an interview in Malayalam of former ISRO chairman Madhavan Nair, about how they developed a ecosystem of suppliers of critical engineering solutions for the launch systems. Many of these suppliers, both private and PSU, were not even interested in making the key engineering and technological leap, but ISRO's perseverance by providing them design, training their personnel on key machining skills, training their mgmt in quality control, all eventually paid off. HAL could take a leaf out of ISRO's vast experience and profit from it.
Maybe they will do it internally, or maybe it's the private sector that will force that change, we'll see. But HAL trajectory is going up, not down. That's my opinion.
 

IndianHawk

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I dont think these are utter bullshit. Huge opportunity for Mahindra. They like the TATAs, Adanis, Reliance, etc. want to continue up the chain, to high margin items which include the likes of whole platform production.
All Mahindra and Tata will get is to assemble parts of foreign fighter jets it will give them business not expertise. And if we instead put our money on domestic jets lca mwf AMCA we can outsource manufacturing to private sector providing them both business and real manufacturing experience.



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IndianHawk

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Let the first orders teeth..
The infrastructure they set up in India will defenitly be good enough.
Also the article says about them Japs planning civilian verjon of aircraft.

let the sweeteners stick yo!
No probs with Japs. They are genuine people and have transferred tech actually from metro rails and doing same for bullet train. I love Japs!

The issue is this dream of becoming aviation hub with small foreign purchase.

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Shaitan

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All Mahindra and Tata will get is to assemble parts of foreign fighter jets it will give them business not expertise. And if we instead put our money on domestic jets lca mwf AMCA we can outsource manufacturing to private sector providing them both business and real manufacturing experience.



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Actually, assembling and testing a whole platform, absorbing another companies aerospace assembly line, methods is valuable for these companies. Yes, creating their own IP is important, but you work your self up there. TATA, Mahindra, etc. all started out assembling outside designs in the auto sector as well. Now TATA, Mahindra, etc. have their own designs.

As far as MWF, AMCA, etc. private sector participation is guaranteed. Two different things. Both important.
 

Sourav Kumar

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To come out of the never-ending conundrum of "oil", India needed "alternatives".

In 2015, Solar Power was given a lot of focus and noise by GoI. Today I took a look at the common solar power stocks and none of them did any good... in fact they did "bad" as far as stock performance is concerned.

In 2019, Electric Vehicles are getting a push. Wondering after 4 years, what the performance would be of EV related stocks!

What are your views on emerging EV sector? Which companies are going to "make in india" for this?
 

Vijyes

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Japan in race to make India aviation hub

Japan’s aviation investment intentions in India centre around an amphibious aircraft US-2 produced by ShinMaywa company. Its appeal lies in its pitch for bagging the order — complete manufacturing of the aircraft in India, training of Indian aviation engineers and shifting of some of the company’s production for Boeing and Airbus to India.

The nub is India will have to invest close to Rs 15,000 crore in the manufacturing facility, but the Japanese have assured that exports to other countries should make up for the initial investment.

For India, the offer of US-2 goes beyond a simple military sale of equipment. Of the 15 US-2 aircraft, three will be wholly manufactured in Japan but the next five will be made in India with Indians as apprentices. The next six aircraft will be wholly made in India by Indian engineers.

It has promised to plough offsets into building navigational infrastructure in coastal stations where US-2 will be based. The proposal also assures an engine production facility in the country headed by Rolls Royce, which also supplies engines to C-17, C-130 and P-8i aircraft being used by the Indian Air Force. If all goes well, the Japanese also have plans to design and develop in India a 19-seater civilian aircraft.



https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/japan-in-race-to-make-india-aviation-hub/799713.html
I agree with @IndianHawk . Making an engine manufacturing unit for just 6 planes appear to be ridiculous. Moreover, India already has made 14 seater plane and is progressing on 19 seater ones. India has no real need for 19 seater ones from Japan. India is aiming for 70-100 seater plane which can be doubled as cargo plane. Why would Japan propose a 19 seater plane? What purpose can such a small plane serve in terms of strategic needs?

This has been kept on hold by India instead of Japan. So there is technically no objection on behalf of Japan if deal goes through.
No, it is Japanese reluctannce. @Hari Sud is correct here. Japanese Constitution, made under USA pressure after WW2, prohibits Japan from exporting arms

I dont think these are utter bullshit. Huge opportunity for Mahindra. They like the TATAs, Adanis, Reliance, etc. want to continue up the chain, to high margin items which include the likes of whole platform production.
They are opportunities to make money without doing any meaningful work and without taking any risk. It is privatising the profits by socialising the costs. Government will pay entire money for building infrastructure and factory while all profit will go to private sector.

It is impossible for 6 planes to get full manufacturing including engine. @IndianHawk has got it very right here.
 

IndianHawk

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Actually, assembling and testing a whole platform, absorbing another companies aerospace assembly line, methods is valuable for these companies. Yes, creating their own IP is important, but you work your self up there. TATA, Mahindra, etc. all started out assembling outside designs in the auto sector as well. Now TATA, Mahindra, etc. have their own designs.

As far as MWF, AMCA, etc. private sector participation is guaranteed. Two different things. Both important.
The context of it all is our limited defense spending. Any foreign fighter deal will cost upwards 20billion USD !

So the right question where should we invest these 20 billion$ so as to advance our aerospace industry to the maximum.

Anyway it seems iaf is hell bent on more imported fighters probably more rafale so reliance will get to 'learn' to assemble rafale.

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Shaitan

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The context of it all is our limited defense spending. Any foreign fighter deal will cost upwards 20billion USD !

So the right question where should we invest these 20 billion$ so as to advance our aerospace industry to the maximum.

Anyway it seems iaf is hell bent on more imported fighters probably more rafale so reliance will get to 'learn' to assemble rafale.

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They are opportunities to make money without doing any meaningful work and without taking any risk. It is privatising the profits by socialising the costs. Government will pay entire money for building infrastructure and factory while all profit will go to private sector.

It is impossible for 6 planes to get full manufacturing including engine. @IndianHawk has got it very right here.
I am confident most of these private sector companies will quickly go up the supply chain into producing DRDO IP/Lead integration work, into producing their own designs/IP. As far as having them produce Indian works, HAL is still sucking up all the lead integration works anyway, so let them produce F21s,Gripens,Airbus cargos, etc. HAL is taking all the main works as of now.

Private sector companies like Bharat Forge changed the whole artillery game in a matter of years. Likes of TATA came from producing simple module work,going into whole of platform construction in a matter of years. It'll give DRDO confidence in them becoming a lead integrator of serious aero works. Eventually they can produce their own designs.

Likes of SAAB, LM, Boeing, etc. are the work leaders in aerospace, not DRDO, HAL. Let them absorb their methodologies, assembly line. Let them hand hold in creating an ecosystem. It'll have dividends down the line. This competition alone is going to make these companies competitive, it'll make HAL more responsible, competitive as well.
 
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Vijyes

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19 seater planes don't have much demand. It is used in limited numbers as chartered planes. No country will eagerly buy Indian 19 seater plane just like that. There is limited use for it for any country in the world, not just India
 

IndianHawk

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I am confident most of these private sector companies will quickly go up the supply chain into producing DRDO IP/Lead integration work, into producing their own designs/IP. As far as having them produce Indian works, HAL is still sucking up all the lead integration works anyway, so let them produce F21s,Gripens,Airbus cargos, etc. HAL is taking all the main works as of now.

Private sector companies like Bharat Forge changed the whole artillery game in a matter of years. Likes of TATA came from producing simple module work,going into whole of platform construction in a matter of years. It'll give DRDO confidence in them becoming a lead integrator of serious aero works. Eventually they can produce their own designs.

Likes of SAAB, LM, Boeing, etc. are the work leaders in aerospace, not DRDO, HAL. Let them absorb their methodologies, assembly line. Let them hand hold in creating an ecosystem. It'll have dividends down the line. This competition alone is going to make these companies competitive, it'll make HAL more responsible, competitive as well.
At present level of technology we are not really far behind of Saab. LM is in different league but then their products are sanctions prone. Dassault is already here with reliance.

We can't keep buying foreign fighters to gain experience. Ultimately we have to develop our own ways of doing things. Tata , Mahindra etc are already supplying to Boeing on civilian side of things. Also there are offsets of Chinook , Apache , p8i , c17 and c130.

When we buy a foreign aircraft we create a dependency on foreign powers for 50 years.
That is too much cost to pay to learn assembling. We could rather pay more directly and hire retired / experienced ex employee of Boeing and LM to come work for tata , Mahindra and impart best practices.

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